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Originally Posted by Grungehead
(Post 4019238)
I forgot to mention, there are AA for atheists meetings. Here is a link to there meeting locations. Obviously there are fewer of them, but if you are near a larger city you will have a better chance of finding one. There are 3 in my area. AA Atheists | Atheist and Agnostic Alcoholics Anonymous Meetings We are all equal members even now and then the general board of trustees need to be taken down a notch. |
AA is a cult more or less. It was founded by low-bottom drunks for low-bottom drunks, primarily. If you read the first 164 pages of the AA book (the actual program) you would find out that Bill Wilson and Dr.Bob believed that the alcoholic drinks more or less for the effect. "Bad" character is only addressed as a means of staying happily sober. The idea is that alcoholics are overly sensitive people and cannot afford to be as selfish and dishonest AND stay happily sober. I am by no means an AA success story, but then AA admits that the true alcoholic is more or less hopeless until a spiritual awakening occurs. I don't like it, but I've tried everything else. |
Originally Posted by awuh1
(Post 4021856)
I am not threatened nor offended by MrT’s opinion either. It’s not his opinion that is objectionable; it is his use of language that denigrates the beliefs of others. It is when he uses language such as “mystic mumbo-jumbo” and says "higher power" falls into the same category (as) the Jedi "Force" that he becomes disrespectful to those whose beliefs are at odds with his own. I do find this disrespectful. I think there is a common thread between the views of people the OP referred to in his original post (the ones who told him he was “doomed to fail” if his beliefs were at odds with theirs) and MrT’s. What they both have in common is a lack of tolerance for the views of others. It is at odds with the spirit of AA, and reminds me of a quote by one of the AA founders who stated ” Tolerance furnishes, as a by-product, a greater freedom from the tendency to cling to preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. In other words, it often promotes an open-mindedness that is vastly important – is, in fact, a prerequisite to the successful termination of any line of search, whether it be scientific or spiritual.” I have the freedom to believe ...he does not. I personally, think that an absence of a spiritual component..whether than is God, universal law or simply that the world is inherently good and a message of faith is one of love and goodwil...is sad. Is it disrespectful for me to state that I think it's sad that he doesn't believe? |
Originally Posted by Michael66
(Post 4021835)
Hi Mr Tumble On your first point you have fallen into the trap of believing in the logical fallacy of a false dichotomy - where you set two non-contradictory and non-exclusive possibilities against each other. It's very simple - if I am ill I go to the doctor, I pray, and I ask other people to pray for me. They are not, in logic, antonymic pairs - which are pairs where only one can be true (such as there being a God or there not being a God). My first instinct if ill, though, is always to pray - but not necessarily for cures; we all age and get ill and maybe even illness has something to teach us. your motivation to pray for a cure is driven by "faith", the lord may or may not hear your prayer, he may or may not decide to intervene, you can never really know what effect if any you will have by inviting Him to get involved. the success is not measurable (especially if you have no science to tell you what the problem is in the first place) However, if you have a heart problem that requires a heart transplant, you know with some certainty that a successful heart transplant will fix you up. the learnings that lead to humanity having the capability to transplant a heart didnt come about from a bunch of monks sitting around praying all day, it came from science. so on the one hand you have a belief system that would lead to your demise and on the other a belief system that has lead to the restoration of your health. the fact that you chose to pray and have the transplant, doesnt take away the fact that only the transplant will save your life... does it? So tell me, which belief system is more logical. |
I think Step 2 covers the subject of the O.P. Seems pretty simple to me when you read "How It Works". Don't want to do Step 2 .... don't do it. It does make it hard to go on to 3-12 though. All the best. Bob R |
Originally Posted by Michael66
(Post 4021835)
.... But why try to force all knowing and understanding into science? Why not accept science for what it is - great for exploring many aspects of natural life, but absolutely rubbish for determining what is the right way to live, or determining what it outside the realm of the natural (few scientists, for example, believe science can tell us what caused the universe; as the cause must logically be outside of the universe). In all my scientific work I have never come across anyone who really thinks science can explore whether God exists or not - the science is the same with or without a God. I do my science with faith in God. An atheist will do science believing there is no God. Our science is the same. Indeed, as I'm sure you'll know, the first scientists were driven by a desire to understand God's creation better. Science looks at nature and not the author, though there is a field of "natural theology" which looks to see if we can learn anything about the creator from the creation. science is a way of thinking, it provides a way for us to understand our surrounding, as an upshot of that, we have gone from being cave dwellers to a complex society that can put remote probes onto planets many millions of miles away. the scientific way of thinking is completely it odds with a faith based approach to understanding our surroundings. should scientists take their orders from the pope or a mullah? if not, why not, if they are representatives of Him? If they do not represent Him, then we have to wonder who are these people and what are their books telling us? |
I am looking forwards to an experiment that can determine the presense of God As for science being at odds with faith. Many of us embrace science and faith. Clearly not everyone buys the science/faith dichotomy. I don't. Science has been my living for 30 years (more than 25 of which are post-doc). My faith is central to who I am and what I do. I love them both and I learn from them both, but I accept that other people feel they can't embrace both (I have also come across people of faith who are scared of science, though that is much less common in Europe than it is in the US). I think they are missing out on the fullest and deepest experience of life, but that's just my opinion. Anyway, good talking to Mr Tumble. |
Originally Posted by Adillac
(Post 4021889)
AA is a cult more or less. It was founded by low-bottom drunks for low-bottom drunks, primarily. If you read the first 164 pages of the AA book (the actual program) you would find out that Bill Wilson and Dr.Bob believed that the alcoholic drinks more or less for the effect. "Bad" character is only addressed as a means of staying happily sober. The idea is that alcoholics are overly sensitive people and cannot afford to be as selfish and dishonest AND stay happily sober. I am by no means an AA success story, but then AA admits that the true alcoholic is more or less hopeless until a spiritual awakening occurs. I don't like it, but I've tried everything else. But IMO the process of working the steps appears to work purely for psychological, scientific reasons, and not because of the intervention or help of a mystical "higher power". It's really nothing mysterious IMO. Somehow, the creators of AA tapped into a process that helps heal the psychic of an alcoholic, and helps the alcoholic gain enough strength to get and stay sober. So, it works for many people. The how and the why is probably moot for those who desperately need help. |
Originally Posted by Michael66
(Post 4021995)
... Anyway, good talking to Mr Tumble. |
Science has and continues to study spirituality. Parts of the brain have been identified that are active during prayer/meditation. Evolution has apparently selected for people to have both a drive for logic/science and a drive for spiritual/religious experience. It's IN us. Another tool in the bag for survival. The way I look at it, if evolution handed to me a brain function that I can activate and develop that will allow me to overcome addiction and have a better life experience, I am not going to argue logically why I should NOT use it. I don't happen to believe in a supernatural deity, but I have first hand experienced the benefits of developing spiritual aspects of my life...with an understanding that like any other thing I do, it's a function of my brain. Some people seem unable to have both science/logic and faith/spiritual active in their mind at once. There is a constant battle there and for them one must be abandoned so the other can rule. But most people, happily, are able to hold and live by all manner of opposing ideas at the same time, pulling out whichever best suits the situation at hand. This very dichotomy has proven useful in our success as a species. It too is a gift of evolution. It's why a 2 yr old child can see a chihuahua, a collie, and 7 totally different versions of cartoon dogs (some that walk upright and wear clothing) and all on it's own recognize them as dogs. Our minds are remarkably flexible and creative and integrative. Photography, scientific illustration, very important ways of getting down the facts of structure, appearance...don't nullify the worthiness of all other manner of art, nor vice versa. The world is richer for both. Both speak to and advance humanity. Neither, to my knowledge, feels the need to stamp out the other, or make the other cry uncle. We see that they both have their place. I wonder if at some point people will likewise be able to see that science and spirituality have their role, and their role is to enhance humanity in the manner they do best, rather than to try to stomp the other out. It is important to note that AA is a spiritual, not a religious program, because spirituality is the use of that particular brain function...not an adherence to a particular belief, but an activation and development of a function of our brain, that give us another angle from which to understand life. |
hey eco i am of the belief that a person may attend a.a and do what they want with it...bigsombrero is on a good tip, and I attend meetings to network with fellow alcoholics. there are many weirdos in a.a, as well as many fine people...I know many atheists who attend also, and make a fist of it.....for me, it is attendance at this, as well as meditation that helps...my partner is also a sober alcoholic, and we help each other...... |
Actualy the religious aspects are covered in the "chapter to the agnostic" in the AA book something about indulging in windy arguments. There's also the bit about the scientists not wishing to prove his experiment wrong. The thing is - the AA book was born of long suffering and many many alcholics dying attempting to think thier way around this illness. Take the washingtonians pre AA - 100,000 of them died as the result of NOT having the AA traditions. So there is a great deal more to the AA program than a cursory dismissal of low bottom drunks there's also the twelve steps but clearly those havn't been adressed yet. Pre AA most literature written about alchohilcs by people who had no knowledge of the illness, and thats stll true today. so be careful what you embrace so readily as your solution. Denile is not a river in egypt - the very nature of this illness is that it tells you your not an alcoholic. Bottom line is - stick with the winners because there are a lot of losers out there who "cannot or will not compleatly give themselves to this simple program" BB p58. |
Well said, Threshold! |
Originally Posted by Threshold
(Post 4023012)
It is important to note that AA is a spiritual, not a religious program, because spirituality is the use of that particular brain function...not an adherence to a particular belief, but an activation and development of a function of our brain, that give us another angle from which to understand life. One cannot be religious without being spiritual, but can one be spiritual without being religious? I don't think so. they go hand in hand. So when people say AA is not religious and that it's just spiritual in reality it's still following some religious guideline. In this example..Christianity Atheists don't believe in anything spiritual. The holy spirit, ghosts, the human soul, life after death , God etc, so I don't know how they wouldn't run into problems trying to do the twelve steps unless they ignore some steps. |
Have a look, Caboblanco: Atheist Spirituality | Atheist Revolution |
Originally Posted by SoberJennie
(Post 4023547)
Have a look, Caboblanco: Atheist Spirituality | Atheist Revolution |
Originally Posted by caboblanco
(Post 4023561)
thanks...funny I always thought of spirituality as having to deal with "spirit" or the supernatural. i don't know if being empathetic is really spiritual maybe just a part of being human. Good article |
Originally Posted by Adillac
(Post 4021889)
AA is a cult more or less. It was founded by low-bottom drunks for low-bottom drunks, primarily. If you read the first 164 pages of the AA book (the actual program) you would find out that Bill Wilson and Dr.Bob believed that the alcoholic drinks more or less for the effect. "Bad" character is only addressed as a means of staying happily sober. The idea is that alcoholics are overly sensitive people and cannot afford to be as selfish and dishonest AND stay happily sober. I am by no means an AA success story, but then AA admits that the true alcoholic is more or less hopeless until a spiritual awakening occurs. I don't like it, but I've tried everything else. |
They say organised religion is for those who are scared of going to hell - and spirituality is for those that have already been there. |
welp, heres a couple definition of a cult: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. greatful to be a member of the cult of AA. never met another cult so devoted to helping others. AA was founded for low bottom drunks. the founders only worked with drunks that were hospitalized or institutionalized. but more was revealed. Adillac, keep goin back! give it T.I.M.E. |
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