I understand your point of view, having heard it before but I have some questions if that's OK

Do you view yourself as still sick?

Did you work the twelve steps?

If you have diabetes and treat it with insulin, aren't you just treating the symptoms?

My father got adult onset diabetes and was able to "recover" from it by changing his diet, he no longer has diabetes, if he starts eating junk again he will get diabetes again but for now he is recovered from diabetes, that's how we view it, we have changed our "diet" thus no longer "suffer" from diabetes.

I find if I no longer shoot myself or put myself in situations where people shoot at me, and my gunshot wound has healed, I am recovered from gunshot wounds.

Anyhow, I agree we have to agree to disagree, I have heard some compelling arguments about the "always in recovery" model but agree with the way it was explained to me which is once I have worked the twelve steps I am a recovered alcoholic because I have recovered from a seeming hopeless condition of mind and body, and if I drink again it will be on a lie because I have admitted I am an alcoholic in step one, not because I suffer from a disease, once I take that drink I am suffering from alcoholism again, does that make sense?

Like if I were a diabetic and ate chocolate until I went into a sugar induced coma after I knew I had it, it's not the diabetes fault I ate chocolate until my heart stopped and I went blind, it's mine, I can't blame the outcome of that on my "disease".

The whole "in recovery forever" idea was put forth by the rehab industry and therapists, people who have a vested economic interest in insuring we "remain sick" and often those "in recovery forever" have a "fear based" program of recovery that we as recovered alcoholics reject. For us the problem has simply been removed. We can go anywhere, do anything, and we don't fear barbershops or barbers and don't need to change our playmates and change our playgounds.

We frequently do but it's because we find these people tedious and boring, not because they are a threat to our sobriety.

Anyhow, thanks for your response, I understand what it is you are saying, and my views are fairly close, but I reject the bit that says I remain sick forever.

i agree with you

i got sick

because i wanted to drink and i got better because i stopped drinking

but part of me still wants to drink (even though every part of my soul and being loathes the thought of drinking hangovers and being ill etc) therefore i must conclude i am still sick and that sickness will always be within me me lurking,waiting ready to drag me back into the gutter in a moment of weakness from where SR and a good friend helped me out of :a043::a043::agree

Thanks Ago, this is a good discussion and I'm glad we're adults that can see our different view points without it coming to a heated battle like I've seen on so many other forums.

To answer your question do I see myself sick? No. But I do know that it stays lurking in the back of my mind just waiting for me to slip up. One slip up and I know I will very quickly go full blown back to my full addiction, or worse, end up dead. So I see it as an ongoing process to keep myself away from this disease. No matter how long of clean time I have, I still embrace that part of me that knows I can never drink again. The only way I see it is that if I'm not continually treating my disease, it will strike again, this is how I see it as a recovery process.

I only worked up to the 4th step, but know the steps and try to live by them. If I don't then it's like giving myself permission to become the person I was...and I don't want to go back there...therefore, still in recovery.

I'm so glad your dad was able to get his diabetes under control, that's an awesome thing, but he still has to continually be aware of his day to day routine so that it doesn't return. This is how I veiw recovery. A constant routine of being aware. I'm not afraid of being sober, and I don't use it as an excuse for anything. I still stay away from bars and parties that I know will be serving alcohol...I don't see it as a weakness, but a guard to my sobriety.

I see your points and mindset and understand them. If it works for you, then it's what you need. I have a different mindset that works for me, so it's what I need. If you look at the different terms here, recovering, recovered, sober...they all end in alcoholic. :c014:

Just one more thing I'd like to add...no matter what label we put on ourselves, we all have the same goal...to be clean and to stay clean. It all comes down to, what I believe, is personal responsibility...we each make our own choices and we have to live by those choices.

Absolutely

We are on the same "team" we are just discussing whether to run or pass as it were.

Sobriety is ALL about taking personal responsibility

"Opinions vary as to why the alcoholic reacts differently from normal people. We are not sure why, once a certain point is reached, little can be done for him. We cannot answer the riddle."
-Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 22

When asked why, I always say that I have certain ideas about why some get sober and some don't, but I also believe that a lot of the time I'm going to be have to be satisfied with not knowing. We can't answer the riddle and we are not going to try to answer the riddle. We can waste a lot of time trying to figure out the why of everything from why we drink to why the sky is blue. It has been said that to enter the kingdom of God, one must become as a child. Little kids always want to know why. I just tell "Because," and they are satisfied.

But like I said, I do have an idea why I got sober. I've asked the same question "Why did I get sober?" And not, let's say an uncle of mine who made repeated attempts at sobriety over a period of thirty years or so. And I don't believe it is because God loves me more than my uncle or any other alcoholic who can't get sober. I don't believe in a God that will make your life worse so that I'll feel better about mine.

The last several years I had a pretty sincere desire to stop drinking. In other words I met the membership requirement. But I couldn't stay sober. I didn't realize it at the time, but I had passed that point where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is is of no avail, I had passed into that region from which there is no return through human aid. You see it was always about something that I was going to do and it always involved getting my life back or getting my act together or getting out trouble or what have you. It was about my little plans and designs. Eventually I reached that place where none of that mattered. I couldn't go on one more minute in that condition. I gave up. I believe that there is more required than a desire to stop drinking. There is the unspoken and implied requirement-surrender. I began to reach a new state of being for me, that of being willing to go anywhere and do anything if it meant I didn't have to be in that condition anymore.

So it wasn't because God chose me to be sober. I also have never bought that idea that drunkenness is my natural state. I believe that when booze beat my ass into submission, it cracked me wide open to what I call grace, to what has always been there. I also believe that I am in my natural state right now, alive, sober, awake, and somewhat in my right mind.

My uncle was the same way. I believe he had the same desire, Booze had quit working for him like it did for me, but he couldn't stop. And like me he always had a plan. And like me he burned every bridge and used up every available resource and option. About six years ago he got sober again and was shacked up with some woman he met at the alano club. That was always "Plan B," after he used up all the family members and they didn't want anything to do with anymore. One morning, about sixty days away from a drink, he woke up and couldn't see going on one more day in the shape he was in. He didn't want to drink anymore but couldn't or wouldn't see a way out. So he went out in the backyard and blew his head off.

He made what Doctor Silkworth called the supreme sacrifice, the ultimate surrender. And now he doesn't have to drink anymore.
Jim

Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition

@ Ago
...but there is a segment of the money making rehab industry that wants to say we will always be "sick" therefore always in recovery

Sure, but isn't that also true of (not-for-profit) 12-step programs?

Great discussion all around!

To me, a person can achieve sobriety but then must work on quality of life. We can't run or drink our problems away anymore. We have to face life's challenges which can include relationships head on.

I remember when my Outpatient Counselor told us that our spouses may not recognize us after we have gained sobriety and I believe that can be true.

I guess what I am saying is that sobriety does not guarantee happiness but it at least gives us a fighting chance.

Dave

I don't aim to throw my 12 Step verbage around anymore, especially where it's not well received.

In 12 Step, we use very specific and focused instructions and it's not about semantics, it's about following directions/suggestions.

If you're not doing 12 Step, that's fine. But we can realize that when we argue/disagree, we understand each others context... then there may be no argument whatsoever.

This "industry" that is being talked about is of no interest to us here as well because our goal is total and complete abstinence so that we can put that particular challenge behind us, right?

Actually no

We are millions of alcoholics that have recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body

Some of the messages of AA have been distorted by the treatment industries over the years, but we recover, hence are recovered, that's why in step 12 it says having HAD a spiritual awakening as THE result of these steps, a spiritual awakening being defined as a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism.

In recovery to me = I'm working my steps
recovered to me = I've worked my steps and am practicing these principals in all my affairs and carrying the message to the alcoholic who still suffers

I understand what he is saying about being "in recovery", therefore ever vigilant, and it's not "wrong" and I don't even disagree with it, it's just not what I offer or my experience with the twelve steps

If you read the Big book it doesn't say don't go to bars, or don't have sex or get in relationships, it actually specifically says we don't want to be the arbiter of other peoples sex lives, but tell that to large segment of the population in AA, who spend more time arbiting the sex lives of others in AA then a widder wimmin sewing circle, or change your playmates and change your playgrounds, but all of these things are now "preached as gospel" in meetings along with the idea "I will always be in recovery"

I'm not saying in many cases these aren't good ideas, but they aren't AA

Actually no.

But I can see where you could get that impression. You've obviously either sat in a few A.A. meetings and or/or read quite a few of the posts on the this forum and the alcoholism 12-Step forum that perpetuate the myth that we'll always be sick and that we'll always be recovering and that "Our disease is out in the parking lot doing push ups."

That baloney is perpetuated by individual members of the various 12-Step fellowships. But the program itself is about total recovery.

But where it started was with people like Terrence Gorsky who have made a living selling his ideas and books about relapse prevention to people who can't prevent their next relapse.
Jim

It doesn't have to be this way Jim. For may of us, myself included, the problem has been removed. It's as if it never existed. There is no part of me that still wants to drink. Therefore, I don't consider myself as still sick.

I appreciate your honesty and am happy for your sobriety. I just want to lay out the possibility for you of a different experience with sobriety. A different freedom, not from the bondage of alcohol, but a new freedom with all of life.

It's available if you want.

"recovered to me = I've worked my steps and am practicing these principals in all my affairs and carrying the message to the alcoholic who still suffers"

That is pretty much where I am at Ago - I have six years sobriety and while I did not strictly follow the 12 step process by the book and did not really ever have a sponsor, I think I adhered to the AA principles that worked for me.

In addition, I certainly do have a feeling of giving back.

Dave

That hits the nail on the head for me. One has to change their personality/beliefs/mindset/attitudes/philosophies by taking all that they can from people who are succesfully managing to remain sober to stand a chance at gratefully remaining sober IMO.

That is what I have consciously tried to do from utilising experience's gained from people on SR, from listening to lots of shares at AA meetings, from sharing lots of times at AA meetings, thinking deeply about the 12 steps and trying to apply the key principles in my life and above all thinking deeply about why I was drinking and by categorically admitting that I am powerless over alcohol and that if I so much as take 1 drink then my life will go to the gutter.

This term used in the book comes to mind; reprieve.

Reprieve;

1 : to take back
2 : to give relief or deliverance to for a time

I wouldn't say that "Whiskey Man" isn't still running around up there in my head somewhere. I don't want to mess around with not keeping spiritually fit.

If I did drink again, it wouldn't be pretty. It might be as bad or worse than before. My experience has taught me this.

Jim...I think your question is a good one...but I agree with Dee it's a hard one to answer. I think that the people that do eventually free themselves from addiction wanted it more than those who choose to stay stuck in the muck and the mire. I too had a moment when my future was so clear to me that I couldn't ignore what had to be done. If you want to quit drinking you have to quit drinking anything other than that is lip service.

Neo, that's awesome, I have been following your posts and you have come quite a ways, if what you are doing is working then keep doing it.

OK, this next bit is important, Personally I couldn't 'think" myself better, some people can, I wasn't one of them, I couldn't think myself into right action, but I could act myself into right thinking, if there ever comes a day when either taking a drink or blowing your brains out are the only two options, and I'm not saying that day will come, it probably won't, but if it does, if you can I'd like you to remember this conversation, jumping into some serious action, helping others and working the steps saved my bacon.

What happens for me is if I don't, "The sound of my own wheels make me crazy" to coin a phrase from a rock and roll song.

Once again, I am nothing but proud of you and happy for you, consider this statement something to put in your "in case of emergency break glass" first aid kit.

I hope you realize this wasn't in a "you are doing it wrong" vein, but "in case of emergency" vein, as far as I am concerned you rock and have come a long way.

How true.

The way I look at it is: I am "recovered".

However, like being recovered from a gunshot wound - that does not make me bulletproof.