I disagree with all of this. Back when they wrote the book's 2nd edition, they had a 75% recovery rate. So this would debunk your "which is the majority of alcoholics" claim. The problem with AA is there are quite a few people sent to AA who

Back in the day, they had one recovered alcoholic for every other big book they sold. So half of them got it immediately. Then of those who went back out, half of them recovered never to drink again. So that's 75%. Of those who didn't get it, some showed some improvement and some just died.

So what's different from the 30s and 40s and 50s to now? Nothing. Booze is the same, alcoholics are the same, and of course the recovery process is the same.

Well... at least it is in the meeting I go to. I guess my AA group is the Dominant AA Guru types you talk about. Hey, if it works, call it what you want. I just got back from a spiritual retreat with over 62 sober alkies from Denver Colorado. It was awesome. I'm not interested in your "IMO" of which you know nothing about.

If you can just come to the realization that you can't drink, you're not an alcoholic by definition. You were perhaps a hard drinker. You were given a sufficient reason to stop or moderate and you did. I'm interested in people who become "cured" and CAN'T stop on their own.

So you differentiate people who go to AA with people who are "looking for a solution"? That's nice. From time to time, I see these people who label themselves as recovered alcoholics but they don't go to AA. I say, "That's wonderful!" To not have to go to AA, smoke like a train, and drink bad coffee and eat cake! How nice. But, what about helping other drunks? Don't you like that part? Are you not uniquely qualified to help the next drunk? Is it not a wonderful paradox that it's better to give than to receive? Or can I just take a pill from pfizer and be done with it?

I'm a recovered alcoholic in that I took the solution and it worked. It worked so well that I do steps yearly. I belong to a group who's decided that we'll start writing on September 1st and be done with all our ammends by Thanksgiving. That gives us 10 months out of the year to work on our ch!#y personalities. :cool: Oh, and I'd agree that it's not a disease. That's described by me ^ above.

So that's what I do. I see enough of this banter about how terrible AA is and there's even a site dedicated to making fun of the whole thing. It reminds me of a line in the BB: "We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demonstrating a degree of stability, happiness, and usefulness which we should have sought in ourselves."

But for me, alcohol was and is the Great Persuader, for it finally "beat me into a state of reasonableness." AA ain't the only show in town. But it is the best show in town. If you go to AA and don't do the steps, it won't work. Not for the real alcoholic anyway. If you find a group who does steps, that's an awesome thing and I wish more people could experience it. I see so many meetings that feel the need to add a bunch of useless garbage, like... keep coming back, day at a time, let us love you until you can love yourself, etc. I go to other meetings too. They may not be the best of meetings and they may rant all hour long about how their boss is a jerk, but when the meeting is over, I get a chance to find a new drunk and just rap for a while. As the book say, it helps me, even if he thinks I'm a whacko guru obsessing loser because I get to stay sober.

My book calls Alcoholism an "illness" not a disease. Therefore it,s not a disease.
Do we tell an anorexic that she just needs to eat more? Try it and let me know how it works. There's no blood test for it. Therefore it must not be an illness or a disease.

There are many things that the anti-AAs out there and people with just too much time on their hands will throw at the Pro-disease theory.

One is this; How can a voluntary action be considered a disease? There has to be a lot of shame and condemnation around an "illness" or a "disease" that causes people to lie, cheat, steal, kill, fight, vehicular homicide, etc. But some that have it and some that live around it get to see it work first hand.

I don't think there was ever an alcoholic or a hard drinker or even a moderate drinker who said, "I think I'm gonna get up today and get wasted, drive my car and wreck and kill 3 innocent people."

64:3
Resentment is the "number one" offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick.

Disease, illness, character defect, spiritual malady, etc..... No matter what label is put on it alcoholism is a serious problem that kills people and destroys lives.

Personally, I choose not to worry about the label, just the results. That is what I treat. I don't have to fully understand cancer to seek treatment for it. I don't have to fully understand or label diabetes or put a label on it to seek treatment for it. I don't have to fully understand depression, bipolar, or PTSD to know that I need to seek treatment for it. There are people who will debate whether or not mental illness is a disease or not, just as people will debate alcoholism. Either way, both are serious and should be treated.

I must say, I have read some interesting thoughts on the subject within this thread.

Spiritual disease! That's right. It says that in the book.

On a side note, I'd like to walk up to a doctor, counselor, or a psychiatrist and ask how much it costs to cure a "spiritual malady". :cool: I'm honery that way.

I don't think of it as a disease. It is genetic it runs in families. I think of it more as an allergy than a disease and I am allergic to alcohol it would kill me.

A disease is not the same thing as a spritual malady. A spiritual malady means something is inherantly wrong with you. A disease is an infortunate condition out of our control that has symptoms we can STUDY-like brain abnormalities, stuff oozing out of you, pain, death, etc. AA wants to conflate the two. That way, they can tie in everything else thats going on in your life with your addiction, when there is no proof anywhere that our spirituality or deep seated convictions play a role in addiction.

Real science can't really take account of spirituality because there's no way to study it. We can't isolate a spirit in a lab.. and we can't recreate "spiritual awakenings" in one either.

Thanks Eroica for the problems in quantifying the "religious experience" or "spiritual awakening", etc.

But to say AA wants to conflate the two? AA wants to do no such thing. What kind of meetings are you going to? The meetings I go to are about personal recovery and helping others. The only time AA suggests treatment is for some new drunks who want to get and stay sober and who might need a little medicine to taper off. Off the top of my head I think the book says, "For some, treatment would be wise."

Nowadays, they've got valium that might be more effective than say, another shot of booze. When some drinkers that have been hitting it really hard just stop abruptly, some fall apart shortly there after. I saw one lady in a treatment center that turned purple in color after about 3 or 4 days sober and she fell on the floor in convulsions as a direct result of alcohol withdrawal. I've seen this in the lunch room of a treatment center years prior as well with a man that had been dry for about 3 or 4 days.

AA has no affiliation with the hospitals, churches, court systems, insurance companies, etc. JD Rockerfeller saw to that by denying AA any money! Old Bill would have loved to have his own hospitals and treatment centers, AA Universities... Then AA would have been all up in the Disease Concept's grill.

It's about the Alcoholism Industry Machine that includes doctors, lawyers, judges, insurances companies, counselors, shrinks, drug stores, etc.

:jail

AA got nutin' to do wid it.

Alcoholism is a disease, but one which no one understands. What makes me unable to stop drinking when the fellow next to me can be perfectly satisfied with leaving half his drink on the bar is beyond me. The trouble with alcoholism is that there's not even a commonly accepted definition of the disease. Go to Google and list "definition of alcoholism" and you'll get 170,000 hits, none of which agree. There is one common thread, however. Alcoholism is a primary disease (nothing causes alcoholism but alcohol), progressive, chronic, and fatal. It will kill you.
I'm an alcoholic, but I didn't stand in line waiting to be born and go over to the table where it said "Want to be an alcoholic? Sign up here." I didn't ask for it nor am I responsible for being an alcoholic. I am responsible, however, for what I do as an alcoholic.
All this really means is nothing more than the fact that I cannot drink. The only good thing about alcoholism is that it's treatable. The most successful treatment program is AA. It's a very simple program, but it's also very difficult. Go to meetings, lots of them.
Find a sponsor. Work the 12 steps. Be patient, miracles don't happen overnight. I guarantee you that if you do all of these things the promises of AA will come true.

I happen to think that alcoholism/drug addiction/ any other self-destructing addiction are all one disease. The disease of addiction. Trying to fill that hole in the soul with something instantly gratifying. Instant gratification is what I was after. I was addicted to the dopamine rush the first drink/line/ejaculation/hit of mj/pill/gamble/fast food meal.

One more time for possible comprehension. Alcoholism is a disease. The AMA has classified it as a diease since 1956. Our beloved government, as part of the CDC and National Institutes of Health have the NIAA - National Institute for Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse. 80% of the funding for alcoholism comes from the NIAA. However, if you don't want to believe it's a disease, then don't. That's ok.
It's easy to hold alcoholics responsible for their actions when they drink. One of the tenets of AA is that you aren't responsible for being an alcoholic but you ARE responsible for your actions. And believe me, GerryP, powerlessness is no myth. An alcoholic is powerless over alcohol. That is a crucial part of step 1. Alcoholics don't drink because they want to, they drink because they cannot not drink.
And whether this disease is hereditary or not really isn't important if you're an alcoholic. Trying to figure which of your ancestors gave you the bad gene is like a malaria victim hunting through the jungle trying to find the misquito that bit him. Treat the disease, dammit! Don't worry how you got it. And just to set the record straight, around 40% of alcoholics have no family history of the disease. NIAA's statistics, not mine. And how long have I been sober? 1 day, today. And I hope that tomorrow it'll continue to be one day. I take it one day at a time. I have been in recovery for a few 24 hours, though.

Anyone can call it what they like, but one thing I do know is I am most definitely grateful for my therapist. Oh yeah, and the antidepressant I'm currently on. It's like someone switched on the light. :)

I spent a couple of years ..studying ...reading trying to find out whether alcoholism was a disease..affliction...illness...blah blah blah.

And why me.......genes...peer pressure....enviroment......mother force feeding me brussel sprouts...blah blah.

TO ME........none of it is important anymore.....wasted head space...to me.

Whats important is that i arrest my alcoholism on a daily basis........using what i found found works for me.

AA and the 12 steps work for me...........thats what i focus on.

trucker.

dis⋅ease   [di-zeez] - noun

a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.

I don't know what the argument is all about...

I thought most AAers believed alcohol and drug abuse was based on inner problems that we have to confront after we put down our DOC. If that's so, then the rationale for alcoholism being a disease makes no sense. If drinking is more like a symptom of something else, then it can't be a disease in itself at the same time. Its like if you bite your nails when you're nervous.. no one would say you have a disease of biting nails.. they'd say..ok, lets see why he's biting his nail.