Here's what wikipedia says
Disease theory of alcoholism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

It says many doctors reject the disease model because the say its a moral disorder.
Ironically AA who sees it as disease but offer the solution be the way of a program to improve morals.

I think the disease/illness theory of AA is a different disease/illness theory put forward by the medical profession (who wiki says generally regard it as a disease)

My doctor once said to me after a relpase that I was weak willed. He could be right but how the hell does he know how strong my sub conscious urge to drink was.

In my opinion it appears you average family doctor is generally not so clued up on alcoholism. I vote for doorknob going around teaching doctors about alcoholism.

IMO when I get an urge to drink it has a conscious will power working against my sub conscious urge.

To all those people who think defeating alcoholism is all about will power alone I really would love to plant my sub conscious urge to drink into them for a day and see how there will power copes with it.

Put a glass of water in front of normal a person and a dehydrated person who hasn't drank for days and who ever lasts the longest without drinking it can have a fiver.
No prizes who is going to win, does it mean the dehydrated person has less will power?

.... ordered

thank you!!!

i think that recovery depends on the person. for some people, believing that it is a disease helps them, whereas, with others, believing that it is a disease could make it worse. what matters is that the person finds what helps them stop drinking/doing drugs. ultimately, drinking/doing drugs is harming them, and whatever way they find to stop is what is important.

1011 days sober.
CHOICE.
I choose to not drink, I choose my cure. I can only "cure" a choice with action not a disease.
This will fall right down party lines. I am a Carr disciple and the disease model directly contradicts my method.
To each his own :).

You know in all reality it does not matter if it is a disease or not, I will pose a few questions and let who ever reads this decide.

1. When your car breaks down do you take it to a mechanic or to a plumber?

I take mine to a mechanic because they have been trained on fixing cars.

2. If you want to buy a house do you go to a real estate agent or to a dentist?

I go to a real estate agent myself, because they have been trained and licensed by the state.

3. You have a severe toothache, do you go to a dentist or a real estate agent?

I go to a dentist because they have been to school and have experience in dentistry.

4. You want to fly some where and you are not a pilot, do you hire a pilot and a plane or do you hire a doctor & a plane?

Well I personally prefer to go with people who are trained and educated on what I want so I would go with the pilot myself.

5. I want to find out if a particular condition is a disease or not, do I just go with my own opinion based upon some feelings and stuff I have read on the internet or do I go with the conclusion arrived at by numerous scientist & medical researchers with years and years of schooling and research on this condition?

Well I feel I would be a pompous ass to think that I know more then numerous scientist & medical researchers with years and years of schooling and research on this condition. I will do as I do with all other things in life, I will not pretend I know it all, nor will I say I know more then the experts on something.

I think that alcoholism is probably more than one disease that show a common cluster of symptoms, including abuse of alcohol.

Taz, there are those with equal education and knowledge in the field that believe the disease theory to be flawed. And it seems, in terms of recovery, that some find it helpful to view addiction as a disease and others do not.

Here is a paper I wrote a while back for one of my classes:


My instructions were: Explain the "Disease concept of Alcoholism: to an individual who has just been arrested for DUI and who does not think they have a problem with alcohol. Include: disease concept, how medicine defines a disease. THIQ.


Alcoholism as a Disease

I understand that you recently received a DUI and do not think you have a problem with alcohol. I
am not here to tell you if you are alcoholic or not. I am here to educate you on the disease of alcoholism. Over 50% of all fatal accidents involving two or more cars are alcohol related. Some of the drivers are alcoholic, some are non alcoholic. Many look at alcoholism with a judgmental and moralistic view. In 1956 the American Medical Association stated that alcoholism was a disease. It met the five criteria needed in order to be considered a disease: pattern of symptoms, chronicity, progression, subject to relapse and treatability. Alcoholism is an illness that crosses all social classes. Anyone could get it, regardless of age, sex, education, class, ethnicity or religion. Those with a family history of drinking are at a higher risk, even if they once swore they would never drink like their mother or father.

Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease that manifests itself with symptoms that affect one physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and socially. Denial is its number one symptom, and the alcoholic is usually the last one to believe he or she has it.

This disease is often described as cunning, baffling and powerful. The alcoholic is often just as puzzled as those around him or her, because no matter how he or she attempts to modify drinking, nothing seems to work. The individual just can't seem to get a "grip" on the problem. Denial is the biggest symptom of this illness, and not just for the alcoholic. Those around the alcoholic are also often in denial, believing the person just needs to stop drinking or cut down. It is only after treatment that this confusing problem begins to make sense. The alcoholic learns that he or she has a chemical reaction to alcohol and that it is the first drink that causes the trouble. That is, it's the first drink that sets the obsession to drink in motion.

The craving that an alcoholic feels for alcohol can be as strong as the need for food or water. An alcoholic will continue to drink despite serious family, health, or legal problems.
Research shows that the risk for developing alcoholism does indeed run in families. The genes a person inherits partially explain this pattern, but lifestyle is also a factor. Currently, researchers are working to discover the actual genes that put people at risk for alcoholism. Your friends, the amount of stress in your life, and how readily available alcohol is also are factors that may increase your risk for alcoholism.

But remember: Risk is not destiny. Just because alcoholism tends to run in families doesn't mean that a child of an alcoholic parent will automatically become an alcoholic too. Some people develop alcoholism even though no one in their family has a drinking problem. By the same token, not all children of alcoholic families get into trouble with alcohol. Knowing you are at risk is important, though, because then you can take steps to protect yourself from developing problems with alcohol.

Now I want to teach you about Tetrahydroisiquinoline. Otherwise known as THIQ. THIQ was discovered in brains of alcoholics in Houston, Texas by a scientist named Virginia Davis who was doing cancer research. For her study she needed fresh human brains and used bodies of homeless winos who had died during the night and were picked up by Houston police in the morning. She discovered in the brains of those chronic alcoholics a substance that is closely related to Heroin. When a person shoots heroin into their body, some of it breaks down and turns into THIQ. The Alcoholics studied had not been using heroin so how did the THIQ get there? When the normal adult drinker takes in alcohol, it is very rapidly eliminated at the rate of about one drink per hour. The body first converts the alcohol into something called Acetaldehyde. This chemical is very toxic and if it were to build up inside us, we would get violently sick and could die. But Mother Nature helps us to get rid of acetaldehyde very quickly. She efficiently changes it a couple of more times - into carbon dioxide and water - which is eliminated through kidneys and lungs. That's what happens to normal drinkers. It also happens with alcoholic drinkers, but with alcoholic drinkers something additional happens. In alcoholic drinkers, a very small amount of poisonous acetaldehyde is not eliminated. Instead it goes to the brain. There through a very complicated biochemical process, it winds up as THIQ. Research shows that THIQ is manufactured in the brain and only occurs in the brain of the alcoholic drinker. It is not manufactured in the brain of the normal social drinker of alcohol. Once the THIQ is in the alcoholic brain it never goes away. This explains the chronicity of alcoholism.

Now for the good news. And there is good news. Alcoholism is treatable, but successful recovery from alcoholism requires active participation of the individual. It is critical that the alcoholic accepts the illness and be willing to manage his or her recovery process, much like anyone with any other chronic illness has to do. Education is essential. Recovering alcoholics must be well informed about their illness and the need for good self-care. To avoid relapse, the individual needs to learn skills in treatment to maintain and enhance his or her ability to continue in recovery. Many people are able to live and enjoy life after dealing with their alcoholism.

Agreed, but they are in the minority, heck there are still well educated "Flat Eathers out there.

But does it really matter? When one is dying of liver failure due to alcoholism whether it is a disease or not?

LOL, they couldn't be that well educated!

Course not. :)

I found this on a pretty interesting link for the University of Texas:

Addiction Science Research and Education Center: Drug Myths

Doorknob—

That was an interesting link. Two things stood out at me. The first was that withdrawal does not equal addiction. I had never really thought about it before but by the time I got to the point about caffeine not being addicting and the common misconception being in place because it causes withdrawal I went, totally. I drink a ton of caffeine but the last couple of days have cut down for no reason, not trying, not like there is a lack of it around, not thinking about it, and have been experiencing withdrawal but the lack of mental energy towards it— so not addicted, interesting.

The other thing that really jumped out was how precise the author was about language— how he was careful to choose dependency over addiction or compulsive behavior or pathological behavior over addiction. I think sometimes people throw around these umbrella terms especially in arguments and then it just gets difficult to even understand at the end what people mean. There are lots of nuances and he reminded me of that.


With this whole is alcoholism a disease question I feel like it can go two directions. One is sort of the objective intellectual argument where people bring to the table outside information and studies like the site Doorknob linked to and debate it in that realm. And the other is to frame it in a more subjective way which is how do you view it for your recovery. Then people can offer how they see it as it pertains to their recovery and it really is not an arguable point, it is just part of their recovery plan, part of their experience. I kind of feel like when the argument/question gets into trouble is when people start mixing the objective and the subjective which seems to have happened on this thread.

I remember THIQ from my early Care Unit days; Tetrahydroisoquinoline.

The THIQ Hypothesis

What difference does it make? I got it whatever it is.

Much as the Doctor had his opinion I also have mine...

The disease concept is a slippery slope with me...a chicken/egg argument. I don't believe alcoholism is a disease but I do believe that irresponsible drinking is a symptom of a problem not being addressed and medicated with alcohol.

The problem could indeed be a disease...neurotransmitter imbalance(depression, anxiety, phobias, etc.), hormonal imbalance (thyroid, testosterone, estrogen, cortisol, etc.), or habitual imbalance (getting into bad habits so that a paradigm shift occurs and your reality changes for the worst). This is certainly a non-exhaustive list but I believe the symptom (drinking) and the problem (disease) are intertwined.

I think the key point is to put away the debate and focus on my sobriety. Wondering if alcoholism is a disease or not while drinking is like wondering what proteins are in blood while I continue to stab myself. Once I stop stabbing myself, does my well being depend on my knowledge of blood proteins or the fact that I've stopped stabbing myself?

One of the most interesting studies mentioned in either "Under The Influence" or "Beyond The Influence" was one comparing how different childrens livers processed alcohol.

They took children where both parents were alcoholics and (Not sure how) gave them alcohol and found that thier livers processed alcohol exactly like an alcoholic's liver would process alcohol.

They did the same thing with children where there were no known alcoholics in their familys and found that thier livers processed the alcohol like a non-alcoholics.

A conclusion that could be drawn from that study is that alcoholism could be genetic.

I know that both of my grandfathers were alcoholics, my father was an alcoholic, my brother is an alcoholic and my son is an alcoholic.

By the grace of God they all found recovery, my father went to his grave sober after 19 years of sobriety, not to bad for a man who experienced a black out for over 3 months! It started in No. Africa during WWII when Italy was still under the rule of the Axis and ended in a hospital in Italy.

I also believe that there is a genetic link to alcohol abuse. However, all our genes can do is determine how our bodies process alcohol. For example, some people are more sensitive to alcohol or some seem to be able to hold their liquor well. And some people really really like the feelings it gives them. But these individuals cannot said to become alcoholic until after they injest alcohol. There is no gene yet identified that determines what "role" alcohol will play in our life, or what gene makes people choose alcohol over everything else in their life. And if these potential alcohol abusers never injest it then these genetic predispositions are just risks.. someone with a breast cancer risk doesnt have the disease.

Whatever it is almost killed me too. The police had to shock my heart and my neighbor had already done rescue breathing. For me it is a disease, other people can handle this argument any way they want to.

I have two little girls and they almost lost their mom and I almost lost the chance to watch them grow up, I don't know if anything but calling it a disease would have helped me.

Is alcoholism a disease?
 

I think this is a very good question and I've read through some of the posts but didn't have time to read them all...yet. I will go back and do that.

This question is part of the reason that I decided to become a member of this fine forum.

I believe the word "disease" and "addict" (another argument for another thread) are doctors terms, not that of recovered alcoholics.

I believe that the term "alcoholism" is a world-wide industry unto itself and AA does not corner the market on it nor do we have the ability to put up a fight against it due to and thanks to our own traditions. Alcoholism is big business for many people and labelling such an affliction as a disease enables the use of insurance for such services to this realm. And that, I believe, is where the slippery slope begins.

But at the end of the day, the doctor, the clergy member, the cop, the lawyer, the PO, the judge, the counsellor, the $250.00/hour psychiatrist, knows where to send the suffering alcoholic for recovery; AA :lmao: :cool:

There are many AA bashers that lurk on many forums and they have their "opinions" about stuff. That's not my concern. This stuff is life and death to me and that's what is important. Get recovered and don't need to get into the debate is my goal.