godsonmyside

Bob B.: I thought I had given you most of the copies that I have or someone from your office at one time or another. I might have some correction copies or like that but it's not like I try to keep it in order or anything like that.

N.A. Way: Now there is some sort of

Bob B.: (long unintelligible stretch)

N.A. Way: They have five principles for recovery.lt looks like a fairly comprehensive counseling program, vocational, psychological,

Bob B.: (unintelligible) like when I (unintelligible) N.A. treatment

N.A. Way: Interesting. Now is this the first edition, I know the second edition is more the size of the small booklets that we have now the 5.5 by 8.5. Is there any (unintelligible) between this and the second edition?

Bob B.: T;Ihere was some, it wasn't a whole lot but there was corrections and things. Maybe a little more expansion on some areas, but basically pretty much the same. There was a smaller copy.

N.A. Way: There was some kind of a conference in 1969 that put together an outline of what the N.A. organization ought to look like.

Bob B.: Well, we had what they call the parent organization of Narcotics Anonymous

N.A. Way: The parent general service organizartion of the Southern California Region. What was that all about?

Bob B.: That was around '65,'66.

N.A. Way: Is that so. Well, what was that about, what happened?

Bob B.: What started that was pretty much Jimmy was trying to establish a basic organizational chart as to what it could be and what it should be and as to its growing sense as a unit and a so that's when (unintelligible) like the Board of Trustees, the different departments or components of how it should work.

N.A. Way: Jack showed me some stuff that he had

Bob B.: Yeah, that was the late '60's. That's what we functioned with at that time was that flow chart.

N.A. Way: Was their a Northern California and a Southern California region or was it...

Bob B.: It was all part of the California Region.

N.A. Way: From time to time did representatives from the groups get together?

Bob B.: Yeah, I think we got together, like the Northern California group tried to form a region

N.A. Way: Was their any other kind of literature besides that white pamphlet? When did the This is N.A. pamphlet come out, that is one thing I actually have a copy of.

Bob B.: No, I don't

N.A. Way: I have no idea where it came from it's just one of those things that happen to be in the file. I believe it shows a Berkeley address on the last page.

Bob B.: It may be something that you'd associate with ad center, because one of the fellas up there used to put out because they had written some things for, an introduction, and It might have been where, I think I might have actuallly had one of these pamphlets.

N.A. Way: The interesting thing about this pamphlet is that it's a copy of the A.A. pamphlet, This is A.A.; and to tell you the truth it's a real nice explanation of what N.A. is about but it's not original

Bob B.: Yeah, but it's kind of like where it came from in a sense. We didn't particularly have any friends called this is N.A. Reason 1 know is because I was in charge of getting and storing the printing and picking it up and carrying it around. So we didn't have it down here. They might have had it up there, but we didn't.

N.A. Way: The address on that last page says Box 954, Berkeley.

Bob B.: So it came out of that ad center

N.A. Way: Why parent organization? What was Jimmy's idea?

Bob B.: Well I guess he said where it all came from , you know. I guess that what you call the parent organization. And I guess that's his understanding that you have to have a source somewhere.

N.A. Way: It would seem like even then he had a very far reaching vision of what N.A. was and would be and how far it would reach out; he was envisioning a world fellowship in the late 1960's

Bob B.: What happened see, is Jimmy got sick with T.B. for about four or five years and he was confined part of that time partly at home and partly not,
because he'd hurt his back and then the tuberculosis too. So for about four or five years he was not really active in terms of N.A. no more than what he could correspond and so forth, and so between Sylvia and Ron Larson and myself and a few others we kind of like had to hold it together and we stayed in conference with Jimmy . That's what was happening at that particular time; he was getting a lot of mail, it would arrive over to his house or to our post office box and one of us would usually pick it up and try to respond.

N.A. Way: By 1970 how many meetings did we have in California in general and in the Los Angeles area?

Bob B.: Probably ten to twelve meetings.

N.A. Way: The year following that was when Narcotics Anonymous held its' first convention; called at that time a world convention.

Bob B.: World as we knew ft. (laughter)

N.A. Way: What was that like, where did the idea come from?

Bob B.: The trustees got it together. We had a trustees meeting and we said to ourselves we need to have a convention and get everybody together and be recognized as having something new. All the trustees pitched in $25 each or whatever it was to get it off the ground.

N.A. Way: The trustees started (unintelligible)

Bob B: We formed a parent organization which must have been '65 or '65.

N.A. Way: Were the trustees like the elected leaders of the parent organization?

Bob B.: Yeah, pretty much so. Between the trustees and the group secretary or group representative we formed up in Morehead Park an organization...

N.A. Way: So you had the trustees, and then there was a representative from each of the groups.

Bob B.: Yes. Whoever the secretary of that particular group was usually informed them of (unintelligible) of the parent organization.

N.A. Way: The parent organization and the board of trustees maintained in pretty much the same form until 1971 you saw the same kind of thing as in '67?

Bob B.: Yeah it probably lasted up until that time when we got the office open and then we got more broad coverage in terms of function. I think the trustees probably pretty much are the ones who ran whatever happened in Narcotics Anonymous.

N.A. Way: So in '71 y'all each pulled $25 out of your pockets...

Bob B.: And had a convention.

N.A. Way: How many people showed up to that?

Bob B.: Somewhere between 150 and 200.

N.A. Way: Today that would be a pretty good sized first convention.

Bob B.: I think it was well advertised, well taken in terms of an event to be seen at.

N.A. Way: Did anyone show up from outside of California?

Bob B.: I think they did. I believe so. The receipt book is out at the office. Because I gave it to whatchcallit about a year or so ago. I just happened to find the receipt book and I think I'm the first person on the top of the list. Me, George Emerson, who else, Carl Baggie, and all the participants who signed in should be in there.

N.A. Way: Dorothy Gildersleve?

Bob B.: Dorothy Gildersleve, yeah.

N.A. Way: Lewis Quick?

Bob B.: Lewis Quick, yeah.

N.A. Way: What happened at that convention. Just describe it, you had 150, 200 people showing up and...

Bob B.: Jimmy was the speaker, I was the Chairman...

N.A. Way: Jack was telling me, was Jimmy given some type of citation?

Bob B.: A plaque; I gave him a plaque. It had all this here original meeting minutes, etc., in it. I don't know what happened to it. It was closed in glass...

N.A. Way: Do you think that he probably has it over at her place now?

Bob B.: I don't know. I don't know what Betty has. I've often asked where that (unintelligible) plaque is. It was kind of like the original by?laws or what have you from that first meeting; that first steering committee put together in July of '53. Names and everything and it was enclosed in glass.

N.A. Way: I'm gonna talk with Chuck Gates later and ask him if there is any way that he can approach Betty. She's evidently taken the (unintelligible) pretty deeply and she's pretty ill now.

Bob B.: She is?

N.A. Way: From what I understand, yes.

Bob B.: I saw her not too long ago. Anyhow, I gave him this here plaque as a momento and as a safekeeping.

N.A. Way: What was it, a three day event. Say a Friday nite and Saturday and Sunday morning?

Bob B.: Actually it was only a two day event: Saturday and Sunday morning.

N.A. Way: What happened?

Bob B.: Well, we just had generally some kind of general meeting and as to the areas or needs that had been representeed and people that were for instance I think we had Judge Emerson give a little talk and Dorothy (unintelligible). I gave a little history before I introduced Jimmy.

Bob B.: Yeah, just trying. You know, trying everything they thought might work you know, change the diet, change the habit pattern ...counseling, put them in a clean environment. Track them over a period of time, you know, there is a number of processes they were doing I call it warehousing of addicts, at that particular time, but they couldn't even touch the problem because if you didn't have money you couldn't even get involved with it

N.A. Way: People with a narcotics habit had more important things to do with their money than...

Bob B.: You better believe it. Most of those that were in treatment, any kind of treatment, were people that had money and didn't have a financial problem but the problem was with people that had nothing and wasn't going to spend money for that anyhow. Where accepting the idea that there was a cleaning up...we didn't discuss about cleaning up at that particular time, even on the street you know, all we talked about was where to get some more and where to get some more. Who had it and where to go get it.

N.A. Way: There wasn't really any thought on the street at that time...

Bob B.: It was very low or none. We may have mentioned it on some occasion. I've got to get my **** together, I've got to clean up, you know or I got to cut this habit back. All these things are shortcuts not talking about clean for ever using nothing.

N.A. Way: Clean from heroin long enough to get your health back.

Bob B.: Yeah. Get your health back and get some things straightened out ...those types of things you can imagine that from that standpoint our attitude, that kind of mental attitude about what our addiction was about.

N.A. Way: Well, in 1959 when you attended your first meeting where was that meeting and...

Bob B.: That was in the Valley. They were moving from Shyer's Dryer over on Ventura to, they were trying to get this Unitarian Church in Studio City, the one on Moorpark.

N.A. Way: Do you recall where exactly Shyer's Dryer was?

N.A, Way: Was there another meeting Sunday Nite before you all broke up?

Bob B.: There was a meeting Sunday Morning. It was held at La Mirada Country Club.

Did people stay there or in hotels, or...

Bob B.: No, most people stayed at home or at other peoples houses generally.

N.A. Way: Was there any kind of business meeting that was called a World Service Conference at that one?

Bob B.: We established a date to have a...the idea for this particular event was to raise enough money to (unintelligible). That was the primary purpose.

N.A. Way: Did it raise enough money to get you going?

Bob B.: Yes and no. We made maybe two or three hundred dollars which was enough to pay the rent at a place that we already had.

N.A. Way: And were you working for Impact at the time?

Bob B.: (unintelligible). I was involved with Impact but I'm still involved with Impact. So I used one of the rooms as the World Service Office.

N.A. Way: Did you have literature there?

Bob B.: Yeah.

N.A. Way: Was there a phone number there, was there a N.A. phone?

Bob B.: We had an answering service out in Hollywood and all of our calls went through our answering service.

N.A. Way (OK that tape ended off with the office you were using at Impact House on Crenshaw)

Bob B.: The answering service was twenty four hours but there wasn't always someone at this office. But when someone was at the office we could get calls there.

N.A. Way: When did people start using the answering service?

Bob B.: Oh, we had the answering service back in '60.

N.A. Way: Somehow it's just seeming like things were a lot more organized in the '60s then I would have thought.

Bob B.: It started coming together as an organization in the '60s. We may not have had all the how to's and wherefores. We had some questions and were enquiring and trying to do the job at hand. We were getting information from a number of sources.

N.A. Way: Who were some of the people who were telling you what to do?

Bob Bar.: People like Dorothy Gildersleeve and Dr. Quick and Jimmy was telling us things to do or suggesting some ideas even when he was sick and not there

N.A. Way: How did all these non?addicts get involved, I mean Dorothy Gildersleeve...

Bob B.: Well, she was a social worker

N.A. Way: Was she the one that had been associated with Penny

Bob B.: Penny, yeah but it is Lewis Quick that was associated with Penny.

N.A. Way: Judge Emerson, how did he get tied in?

Bob B.: I'm not even really sure.

N.A. Way: He was the first judge who started referring people to Narcotics Anonymous, wasn't he.

Bob B.: Yes, yes he was.

N.A. Way: He's still sitting on the bench out there in Whittier and if he has time I'm going to sit down with him and get as much of this from him as he can remember.

Bob B.: It might have been because around '69 or '70 they had some parole officers and probation officers that were usually associated because of their clients and they might have seen some things there that they liked

N.A. Way: Gildersleeve must have been impressed.

Bob B.: Also, through her association in the Valley, with all of her clients, she started referring to N.A. as a viable recovery source.

N.A. Way: How was she involved? What type of role did she play?

Bob B.: As a spokesman primarily. She was associated with a lot of people in the legislature, so to speak, or into recovery or social services. Those types of things. And she just had the kind of ability to kind of help people. And Quick being a psychiatrist, he probably had a lot of understanding about people.

N.A. Way: And did he refer Penny to N.A.?

Bob B.: I think he found out about N.A. through Penny.

N.A. Way: And what kind of role did he play once he found out?

Bob B.: He was a trustee initially, but then he got sick and had to withdraw from being a trustee. He had diabetes or something pretty serious and wasn't able to be very active. But he always spoke very well in those places that you associate with people and where word of mouth is applicable.

N.A. Way: It sounds like you had a really nice combination of people who were helping both inside and outside.

Bob B.: And we came by these people just kind of out of the blue.

N.A. Way: I've heard some people call those kinds of things,"God Shots", or gifts. Are there other non?addicts that were helping us in the late '60s and early '70s?

Bob B.: Yeah, there were.

N.A. Way: Were there meeting directories at that time (late '60 early 70s) showing where all the meetings were and if so do we have any copies of them?

Bob B.: No.

N.A. Way: So it started to spread a little bit more from that Hollywood, central LA. mode

Bob B.: yeah.

N.A. Way: So it was just the White Book all the way up to '78 except for those five pamphlets and all of those were a direct exerpt from the little while booklet except for the one for those who (unintelligible). What I'm really looking at is N.A. up through the first conference at Valley College because that seems to be the breaking point between (unintelligible)

Bob B.: Greg put this organizational chart together and we spent a couple of weekends up in the San Luis Obispo area finalizing what should be (unintelligible) and who was to see that it functioned like that.

N.A. Way: It looks like the structure, the things that are talked about are expansion and further explanation of the parent organization...

Bob B.: It was but just more organized and concise. I think the biggest argument probably was who was going to be responsible to see that the guidelines were followed.

N.A. Way: When did incorporation finally take place. Jack was supposed to take care of that when he was elected chairman of the board of directors. That is what he was supposed to do but he never did it ...From what I understand you had the office until '73 or '74 and then when Jack came in gradually you were able to let go

Bob B.: They had (unintelligible) who was supposed to have been elected office manager so what he had done was take (unintelligible) up to Crenshaw with all the supplies and everything up to the Suicide Prevention Center where he was working. He was working at the Suicide Prevention Center under some government grant type money. When that folded he left the office unmanned for a while of course our literature they moved over to Cry Help where they had a little sub?office out here in the Valley.Jack probably got involved in it because they had to move it out to Cry Help's little sub?office out here in the Valley. Bill had a (unintelligible) Jack, ran a little out patient office out here in Van Nuys.

N.A. Way: Do you know the address of that place.

Bob B.: If somebody know where Mary Beck is she probably tell them where it is. I think it was on Victory but I'm not sure. A lot of our stuff (files and things) were lost at the suicide prevention. It was kind of one of these offices there that too many people had access to and a lot of stuff disappeared.

N.A. Way: Crenshaw was the first.

Bob B.: Crenshaw was the first office location; Highland was the second and then to Van Nuys

N.A. Way: Jack said it was a convenient location and that you were paying $50 a month.

Bob B.: It was convenient for me alright, I lived right around the corner.

N.A. Way: From the place in Van Nuys it went to Jimmy's House. O. K. Jack recalls that it stayed there until about 1981 is that right. That's what he recalled and then it moved to another location in Sunland.

Bob B.: Well it had two places in Sunland it moved to. The late 70s as I recall because they moved to the storefront, they had two storefronts.

N.A. Way: The second storefront, the last one before it was moved to Wyandotte by Bob Stone, that's the only other office location that I've seen.

Bob B.: There was another one right off Vineland. Vineland and Lankersheim.lt moved into the house, there was an office right next to Jimmy's house before it moved to Vineland and Lankersheim.That's when we incorporated, just about the same time. Gregg, myself, and someone else were on the incorporation papers. I don't know what year that was.


N.A. Way: So N.A. has been brought up to the meetings at Valley College then. When was the first meeting separate from the Sorld Service Conference, '76 or'77

Bob *B.: I don't remember. Valley College should have been the following year.

N.A. Way: One last thing: About how large was the N.A. community in Los Angeles in 1976?

Bob B.: I say it had to be two or three thousand.

N.A. Way: Is there anything that we missed.

Bob B.: Probably lots of things but it will take triggers to get them to click in.

N.A. Way: I'd like to get back with you in a month or so after I've spoke to some others and try and fill in some gaps with you. What about some of these people: Jean Lecacas

Bob B.: He's around; he's still clean. He's a gypsy. That's what he is. From northern california to southern california, that's where you see him.

N.A. Way: Carl Beck.

Bob B.: He's still around. In Aftatena. His last name is spelled Baggett. His office is in Covina. He was a member of the Board of Trustees in '69 or '70. Mel Calvin, he's still out in Whittier. Whittier Electronics. Gilda Hays, I don't know if she's dead or not. I'm trying to think about Jess Loyn , he was alive a couple of years ago at the House of Uhuru in East L.A. Eddie Cochran was back but I don know ...he may be up in Camarillo but I'm not really sure. He was involved in N.A. earlier in the '50s than I was. Pepe would know where a lot of these people are. Russ Counts is in Tulsa, Oklahoma or Norman, Oklahoma. He's the one went up to ad Center with Sylvia in about '65.

N.A. Way: Elaine Goodrich is in Palos Verdes

Bob B.: Yes. Sylvia Magdaleno might know where Mary Vargas is. George Romero is in New Mexico ******* 892?7165, Rio Rancho, New Mexico. He went up north with the Ad Center too and he got sick up there; wandered around in a daze for about ten years ...l know you have the names of the Magdaleno brothers there.

N.A. Way: I Just have the names of the husband and wife Magdaleno. There are more Magdaleno's? (laughter)

Bob B.: Yes, all four brothers. Ricks up North, Sylvia will know where Rick is and George is down here, he's got 25 years, I got George's number you don't have to get it from Hank ...George's number is 372?0446.There are two brothers up north. Rick and Hank and George have been clean ever since. They all have over 20 years. Another person you can catch up with is Ron Larson or Cathy Larson ...l don't know where Ron is, Cathy is in Kansas; Ron was in the L.A. Area ....Mary Hepbergh has Cathy's number she's been around a long time too her number is (408)293?5751. She is the director of Pathways in San Jose. Bill Beck is down in Washington somewhere.

Bob B.: Well not really knowing the Valley that well at that time. If someone would have asked me, "Where is the San Fernando Valley?", I would not have been able to.

N.A. Way: Well I understand that at that time the Valley was much more separate from the city than it is now.

Bob B.: The only thing being recognizable that I can think of would be Ventura Boulevard. You know as a reference. Where it was, what intersecting street, I couldn't tell you.

N.A Way: I read the transcript from that dinner that the Trustees had with Jack Prost, and there was some mention of Doc Morris and a meeting on Fairfax Avenue, and Shyer's Dryer and they were all in the same context.

Bob B.: It couldn't be Fairfax because Fairfax doesn't run out there. Colfax maybe. That might have been in the vicinity because Colfax comes out there about approximately in the vicinity where it would have been.

N.A. Way: What was Shyer's Dryer?

Bob B.: It was a sanitarium for alcoholics.

N.A. Way: Do you know what the proper name for it was?

Bob B.: It was something like Shyer's Sanitarium or ...l really don't know.

N.A. Way: I understand the building is gone now.

Bob B.: Is it. The building's gone, yeah. In fact that whole area has been changed you know as far as construction around there, etc.

N.A. Way: But getting back to that first meeting, ft was at Shyer's Dryer?

Bob B.: Yeah, it was at Shyer's Dryer. And the attendance was both alcoholics and addicts together. I think my next particular meeting during that period was at the Unitarian Church.

N.A. Way: And that was the same year?

Bob B.: The same year or early '60, because it was in late '59 or early '60 when this occurred.

N.A. Way: The alcoholics who attended, were they there in support or were they thinking of themselves as members of N.A as well as A.A.?

Bob B.: They were maybe thinking of themselves as members of both N.A. as well as A.A. There were people there who had initially had drug problems perhaps intertwined with their alcoholism together; it's all part and parcel of the same thing. So they were in attendance as a supportive unit and that's the way that they came to meetings. Very often it would be a case of once a month at our N.A. meeting a lot of people from the clubhouse would show up.

N.A. Way: Which clubhouse was that?

Bob B.: North Hollywood, on Bradford.

N.A. Way: Is that still there?

Bob B.: Yea, it's still there. And they used to come by, you know, and now if we have a big meeting you know once a month we'd have a big meeting with all these people from, oh, all the dignitaries from A.A. come over to support or see what's happening or just to keep their hands you know involved perhaps...

N.A. Way: Did the "jack rabbit meetings," you know, the secret meetings, stop by 1959?

Bob B: Yes and no. I guess you might say they really didn't get started. See, there was a break between about '53 up 'til about '59. Of N.A being very active. Most of the meetings they had were kind of periodic or sporadic.

N.A. Way: Yeah, my understanding from reading the Jack Prost transcript was that from '53 to '59 Narcotics Anonymous was really nothing more than a name that was given...

Bob B.: ...in the mind of people more than anything else ...time devoted to the drug problem so to speak and that type of issue. Not that we established N.A. meetings per se. I think probably one of the forerunners at that time that became very important is when little Sylvia Wexler got out of the penitentiary...

N.A. Way: Do you know if Sylvia Wexler is still alive and around?

Bob B.: As far as I know she may be still be alive. She was sick and moved from the L.A. area because of her health. She got out of the penitentiary in '59 and she got very active with Jimmy in terms of trying to start some separate meeting apart from the A.A. Fellowship. She was more or less kind of like a very dynamic figure about doing that you know. About trying to get things going.

N.A. Way: How much do you think she was responsible for helping N.A. to really get going?

Bob B.: I think she was very important; as I say, I think she was one of the important elements that made things cohesive and brought things together. Not only that, I think she spoke a language that the addicts of that day understood. Where perhaps "J" was in a different instance in terms of playing a more established community?based person. She was dynamic in terms of the "gogetter," she became involved in that respect. She got very active in that concern ...overly so in perhaps some ways.

N.A. Way: How old was she when she got out?

Bob B.: She was around fifty years old.

N.A. Way: O.K. So she would be close to eighty.

Bob B: Yes, 'cause she had to be close to fifty then.

N.A. Way: When was the name Narcotics Anonymous first used?

Bob B.: It was being used at that time; it was called Narcotics Anonymous in 'S9.

N.A. Way: Sally Evans had something that when it was first started it was called "A.A. for Addicts." Do you know anything about that?

Bob B.: Well, there was a number of other things that had occurred just like this here Danny thing that went on over here in Riker's Island, you know I had a lot of historical you know, so much historical ...there had been a number of attempts around the nation as far as that's concerned to start or establish N.A. or a place for addicts so to speak.

N.A. Way: But this thing that started with Jack Prost, that really started with Jimmy K. and that committee in July of '53.

Bob B.: Well as far as I know they batted a number of things around as far as names are concerned but I think it got pretty well established in '59 during the time of Sylvia and Scott and Jack Gilbert and there was another fellow too, Manuel Delgado.

N.A. Way: Scott Conlan?

Bob B.: Yeah.

N.A. Way: Do you know if any of these people are still around?

Bob B.: One of the brothers?is still, oh ****, there's a couple of fellas who were Mexicans that I met fairly recently 'cause of my (unintelligible) last year that were still just trying to clean up once again. They were somewhat involved in terms of carrying the message 'cause they go around to different places and carry the N.A. message

N.A. Way: Do you know if there was any literature at that time?

Bob B.: No more than the Little Yellow Pamphlet basically.

N.A. Way: That was the only literature that we had? The Little Yellow Pamphlet??was that the same as the Little White Book?

Bob B.: No. There was more to the next edition. The Little White Book had tended to correct, you know, what was left out of the Little Yellow Book. I think it was a case of to add some more things to it. To clean up what was in the Yellow Book. Because the Yellow Book didn't have that many things you know. I did have the excerpts for the White Book but the White Book didn't come about until after...

N.A Way: Well, what we have in the Basic Text says '62.

Bob B.: About then is right. Jimmy had written some more things. He added to the Little Yellow Book and added some more of his own about recovery and relapse and those types of things in the beginning. So, you know, we're talking about probably, yes, '62.

N.A. Way: Do you know when this (holds up "This is N.A." pamphlet) first came out? Do you have any idea?

Bob B.: I'm not really sure; I know it was prior to '59.

N.A. Way: Do you think Jack might have an idea of when...

Bob B.: I don't think anybody has. 'Cause I don't even know if Jimmy knew exactly. The only person I can even think who may have some idea when that came out ...and I wouldn't even have an idea of how to get in touch with them at the present.

N.A Way: Do you have any idea of who the printer was?

Bob B.: Yes, I do but I can't think of it right now... Wait, it was a printer down in Venice ...Bill Nolte.

N.A. Way: I'll see if I can track him down.

Bob B.: I think he's dead. So, we're talking about the printing of the pamphlet with these changes incorporated therein. It was about this time when Mother Sylvia came on the scene; she got out I think in '62.

N.A. Way: Is that Sylvia Magdaleno?

Bob B.: Yeah.

N.A. Way: She would've been very young then, wasn't she?

Bob B.: She was, she was probably in her early twenties.