This is in part from a discussion initiated at Nonsensical's awesome thread. Clicking the quote arrows will take you there. Meanwhile, I've moved some of my part of conversation here so as to deepen my answers without having to hi-jack, and to also flesh out a fuller meaning of this thread too.
Originally Posted by
RobbyRobot 
I'm still of a different view here about saying never, and then returning to drinking anyways. Never means never, and when never doesn't come true, something has to answer for that reality. Sure, I said never and went back to drinking in my day too, but I would also accept I didn't really mean never, and in fact, I would also agree I didn't even mean really quit. I really actually meant just quit between drinks which really finally means controlled drinking. I'm not seeking agreement, I'm just saying how it was and still is for me.
It's not that I don't believe you, its that I can't agree that AVRT wasn't working for you even when you didn't know about AVRT proper. As has been said a million times, AVRT is as old as the hills, and has been used for centuries already.
I achieved separation because I had actually created a BP, as is now described in AVRT as written by Jack Trimpey, and I had no present knowledge of AVRT.
So for me, that's how it sits. Quit means quit. Never means never. When that doesn't happen, something is not wholly squared away... and that something is not missing recognition, is my experience.
Originally Posted by
soberlicious Well, yes, obviously something is not wholly squared away, but I'm curious as to why you think it may not be missing recognition of the AV that could throw a cog in the machine? I think missing recognition is huge. Within AVRT, that's how the beast gains control.
Chapter 13 of RR:The New Cure talks about drinking in violation of the BP. This discussion got me thinking about it, so it was an interesting reread for me.
Its all about perspective relative to the observer. I've no experience with returning to drink after quitting for now and forever back in July 22 1981. The difference this last time and the times before is times before I didn't sincerely mean to actually quit, and certainly not forever. To be blunt, I simply meant to control my drinking, moderate it, even though I was earlier times stating I wanted to quit for ever, in all honesty, and as later proved by me by returning to drinking, I simply wanted a break between drinks. As difficult as that was for me to face, that was the truth of it for me.
In that special day in July '81, things were different. That day I didn't care about how I quit, or why I was quitting, or if it would work, or what sobriety could be, or if alcoholism was an illness or not, of if AA worked, or if God was real, or anything ******* else either -- except I totally knew I was gonna die drunk if I kept drinking. No way out. Done. Drink and die. End of story.
The other thing going on was of course I was actually drinking myself to death because I wanted to die. I'm no dummy, and life sucked for me in ways that words just fail.
Addiction ambivalence was working me like a pump handle -- "yeah, this is killing me" "yeah, I wanna die anyways, and this is ******* doing it" "no ******* way I'm gonna die drunk!" "**** this! I'm never drinking again!"
So now the stage is set -- and its now either way I'm screwed -- I wanna die anyways -- and I finally really now know I don't wanna die drunk because I'm about to really actually quit for now and always. Well, **** me. Now what? Dead is dead, so wtf?
Well, something in me did die that day. My personal understanding of conditional crap paralysing me and drowning me in a sea of rhetorical ******** died. I gave up not just on drinking, but on everything, including suicide as a final answer to my sorry life.
I threw everything into the bonfire of my intellectual/emotional vanities, and let it burn itself out. For the next few weeks of my supervised detox I was interested in the truth of whatever. I couldn't of cared less what was real or not. I just didn't want to die drunk, and I wanted to care about living again enough not to suicide now that I no longer would have alcohol to blame for wanting to die, I had to face my sorry life f2f with myself in my detox.
Okay, enough already. Still makes me sick to this day sharing about this, at this level, and I'm 31 years later now since my detox. Ugly doesn't to it justice. Hateful and lost in space starts to qualify me back then. I was already tagged with being an undifferentiated chronic schizophrenic, and that certainly brought its own issues to the table when I detoxed, and began my recovery, lol.
I was already 5 years sober when Rational Recovery hit the California scene in 1986 with self-help meetings. "The Small Book" was finally commercially published 1992, after three in-house (Rational Recovery) self-revisions. "Rational Recovery: The New Cure For Substance Addiction" - Jack Trimpey's definitive writings on AVRT wasn't first published until 1996. By then I was 15 years sober.
Hmmm.
I didn't actually read the entire/most of the book RR:TNC until last year, while reading up on the thread started by TU. Last year I was over 30 years sober.
Hmmm.
And yet I was using my own understanding of AVRT from back in 1981. No big deal in itself, but when I discuss my experiences with others using AVRT, I kinda notice I'm a bit off the well-trodden path, lol.
For me, when the last time me, or anyone else, imo, quits drinking, the only truth they have for sure is the truth they have since their last drink. Other times before their last drink, not so much...
For me, whatever I said about quitting and then not actually quitting equates out for my that I was not really about quitting, no matter how sincere I thought I was, I wasn't. This is just simple truth for me. Quitting forever simply works forever. Anything less, works for less. Simple. No other way for me to look at it and still hold my head up as I take in my present 31 years of abstinence/sobriety.
When I quit forever back in 1981, my alcoholic mind screamed at me that I was just lying again, and I would soon be begging for a drink. I just laughed too myself, and I accepted that there would be begging alright, and it wouldn't be me doing the begging anymore. Yeah, there are lies and falsehoods aplenty flying around alright, and its not me lying this time around.
Because if it really was me, I would be drunk, and since I'm not drunk, it sure as **** isn't me wanting that lousy drink anymore!!!
Well... I ******* took off like a rocket when that really sunk into my awareness. Look out world... Robby finally has a way home.
For the first time since I was ******* 12 years old, I had a way back home. I was 24 when I last detoxed. I'm 55 now. What a long, strange trip it's been, lol.
So for me, the "never drink again" angle brought out my AV like I was throwing gasoline unto my alcoholic mind. Everything burned down to ashes within 90 days, and I've been on the upside ever since.
Quit means quit. Never means never. This is enough to totally have my Beast screaming out its AV at me. Nothing else is needed for me to more understand to appreciate my Beast screaming at me.
I'm not saying what ever against anyone who has differing experiences then me with their Beast/AV and AVRT. I have no reason to task them, and certainly, where I have come from, no place to judge others.
I've probably not explained very well much of anything to help with your curiosity soberlicious. I do hope though that I have explained why I see things as I do with AV.
For me, to even consider that I could have failed in my quitting drinking by not understanding enough about AV is in itself just more AV... you know?
So naturally, I see it the same for others who quit and returned to drinking. It doesn't make me right, it just makes me honest with myself on how I see things based on my experiences with quitting forever, and AVRT.
For me it is conditional thinking to think that misunderstanding AV could eventually corrupt a BIG PLAN enough to falsify a quit forever commitment to myself.
With AVRT any and all conditions attached to not drinking equate to AV. The only way I know now to get back to drinking would be to destroy myself enough to not care about my sobriety, my sanity, my life -- and even then, I would still hear my AV screaming at me to hurry up and ****myself so that IT could have a lousy drink!!
