Five

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/p...gs/27/dear.pdf

http://www.habitsmart.com/cdpnt.htm

These are critiques against codependancy - they may provide more a balanced view of the codependancy model.

Should things be analised and discussed. Of course.

equus

I remember going hunting to see if it could be found in journals, or from research, or defined in a DIAGNOSABLE manner - zilch, nada, nowt!

Yet to deny that I was suffering from it was denial, yet there were no definable symptoms. I noted that while I did talk HERE at SR about D's drinking and stopping, and drinking so did many of those who felt my focus was a symptom - however to me what's said HERE is biased. I don't say the same things each time I meet with friends, or at work.

If while in the process of being diagnosed over the net I mentioned it was not recognised anywhere empirically as a condition, or disease - me saying that did offend (not my intention).

Here's what I find hard - actually very hard:
To say my choice of partner is sick is to say he is an unhealthy choice - worth somewhat less than the next person, showing some neediness in me to have chosen him. From there on in what I consider 'normal' behaviour (certainly normal for me) like talking, listening and learning about what he's dealing with is seen by SOME as symptoms proving the first conclusion. Not only that but my own grotty childhood is the final AHA... moment - see all proves the point.

Only Here's my take on it:
I grew up in exceptional circumstances that gave me a highly individual view on life. In practice that has proven to be as functional if not more functional than much of what I see around me. I'M certainly happy with it as a work in progress. Growing up I learned many things, not to judge a book by it's cover, not to get dragged into behaving the same as people you don't admire, to stand back and gain my own perspective, to use reason. I lost things through my childhood too. I lost the faith that the majority are always right, or that more years on this earth makes a person right, I lost faith in what I was told was true without any evidence, and lost the belief that life is fair - it ain't!

All of those things played a part in the choice I made for a husband. Far from marrying someone less than myself I married a man who had a life that demonstrated a tenacity to survival, a kind heart and a willingness to learn and change. I also married a downright genius and DO NOT buy into his belief that should never be said outloud or the sky falls in!

My take on things doesn't really fit with thinking of myself as ill. God forbid but I DO have the confidence (most of the time ) to see myself as someone who learned incredible things young and I don't feel regretful of any big life choices. I feel whole, part of that is all the stuff I/we struggle with - I can observe few if any people's lives are without struggle.

Oh and the best thing of all I learned? Squeal like a stuck pig when it hurts - ask for help, learn to find good help, we need people and the 'hard guys' aren't nearly as tough as those who know how to let themselves recieve support, or better still seek it out when needed!

I'd love to see a world where alternatives to 12 step for families was even as available as it is for those misusing substances. But I can't complain to loudly because I don't personally want to be the link here for my own reasons.

I'd loved to have seen it in real life too but kind of managed to kill that idea by blowing my gob off!! Such is life - I hope the next one along does a better job to save the world!

Ann

Five, I was going to reply in great detail, but instead will just say...."To each his own". 'Nuff said.

Ann

historyteach

Five;
Very interesting articles. I have had a problem with the idea of a "pathology" in helping. And the one size fits all model doesn't fit; that's for sure. Finally, something I've grappled with is the minimization that codependency tends to make of real issues of childhood abuse.

I think these articles are worth reading and discussing. I also think that, unlike the author, there can be, and is a case where we can help "too much." Sometimes helping can hurt the intended receipient. If we label it codependency or some other word, it doesn't really matter. The result is that the person we want to help is hurt. So, the behavior is counterproductive.

Having said that, I think there is indeed a movement that wants to make victims of us all. How we view events - past or present - determines our responses to those events. I am either a victim or a survivor of rape, for example. One makes me weak, in need of support and help; unable to get by on my own. The other makes me strong and capable; able to move on. Our perspective is what makes the difference. Making victims of us all is, in itself, pathological, in my view.

We all have much more power than we usually recognize. This victimization of us, due to our hurt inner child, reduces the ability to connect with that inner strength. Especially when the label, "denial" or "enabler" is attached to us, through either mean spirited or well meaning outsiders. We need to learn to tap into that resevoir of strength to utilize it for our own well being.

Thanks for bringing these issues to the fore. Knowledge is power. It's good to know all sides of an issue prior to blindly accepting an idea or a label.

Shalom!

equus

OH HOW TRUE!!!! I can look back on something knowing it was hard to live through, hard then but also acknowledge my life has gone on and that I CAN chose not to pick it over and over like a scab!

The way 'denial' gets used is like a mouthful of sand - irritating to the point of distraction!

robina

The article certainly makes you stop and think.

Having been through emotional hell as a result of my daughter destroying herself with alcohol, however, I have come to the conclusion that all my "helping and caring" was not doing any good to her whatsoever. Actually, I was working harder at her recovery than she was.

Step one asks me to acknowledge my powerlessness over her disease. I have done that. My job is now to take care of my own mental and emotional health while my daughter suffers with a disease that I cannot even begin to cure.

I think the family dynamic of addiction is deep, complex, and difficult to understand. I have found that the loving detachment and boundary setting I learn in Al-anon are giving me some small amount of peace and serenity while I watch the unspeakably painful destruction happening to my daughter. Loving detachment is helping me survive each day - that's all I know.

It doesn't mean I don't care about her. It doesn't mean I don't love her. It just means that I have to place my own survival first in the face of a powerful disease that kills.

Robin

Magichappens

Even though I am a follower of 12 step method, I don't think it is for everyone. I do think that I needed to seek a relationship with God, and the 12 steps were a great vehicle for that. I don't think that everyone who is close to alcoholism has the same void as me. I believe that all avenues for life improvement should be explored without contempt in order to find the one that suits each of us best. Hugs, Magic

Five

Thank you so much. These thoughts are fascinating and are a honour to read.

ODAT

I have struggled with the term "co-dependancy" and with both models of recovery for most of my recovery.

My first entrance into recovery was because I was feeling more pain than I felt I should have when a partner left and the first thing we did was explore my childhood. Questions were asked about my father's drinking and some of the things that happened and of course I found many ways of being that were 'abusive' in nature--at least abusive to our terms today.

No questions were asked about my adult years--about the fact that I had left my marriage for this man, about the fact that I had moved on my own with the children due to the timing of this man's leaving, about the betrayal I felt at this man--that was all skipped over and the 'reason I felt so much pain was because of my childhood'--so the obvious conclusion was that ANYONE from a healthier background would not have felt so hurt had they left the first abusive relationship (with father of 2 children), to move to a new city with another man and then have this man leave. Anyone else would have felt hardly any pain and would have just moved on with no problem.
(victimization and villainization of the parents and completely ignoring the 'real' issue).

I signed up for quite a few years of counselling. Then, stopped going because I stopped trusting. I wasn't seeing anyone else for a while, was single-parenting 2 small children, and was taking a full and a half course load at university. Yet I WASN'T functioning????! I started dating a pothead and began having flashbacks to my 14th year when I was molested by a (functioning??) police officer and teacher.

During the next 2 or 3 years I attended counselling regularly. Both group counselling for long-term trauma survivors and individual counselling at the sexual assult center. Not once was the term 'co-dependant' used and not once did they question or worry about us using ourselves. At that time, I started smoking a little pot "to take the edge off the feelings". Twelve step meetings were never discussed.

After a few years I headed out west where there was a longer wait for counselling at the assult center and through different circumstances I found my way to A.A. ( never really drank much but I really could understand some of what they were talking about--especially with regards to things like anger, feelings, and such) and then to Alanon. I did learn that in most of the women's groups I attended most of us had issues surrounding caring for people who used and out of 25 members 24 of us had been sexually abused in the past. I found alot of recovery in those rooms...the concept of God was foreign (I prefered Goddess or creator) and the concept of "letting go" and also understanding such things as the futility of trying to explain or discuss things with an addict or drunk even if they are dry at the time.

I then joined another group at the assult center. At the same time I was going to the womens side of a family violence project where I learned alot about rationalizing abuse, making him accountable and about keeping myself safe. One 'self help' book that I found very useful was "men who hate women..." and "When I say no I feel guilty"... the first because of some of the visualization excersizes that helped block some of the affects of his verbal attacks and the second because it gave me a healthier script to use with regards to my passivity.

When I returned to my home city (where I was in therapy in the assult center) I heard some interesting explanations as to why they hadn't suggested 12 step programs to any of us. There feeling was that at certain points in recovery from childhood trauma self medication can actually help. The one therapist explained it to me that at the time when she knew me I was so close to suicide that if I had felt all of the pain that was coming out of me at that time in my life, suicide was a distinct possability. She also had a problem with women admitting powerlessness at a time when they needed to get intouch with their own power (her words). In those sessions, and at that time, it was thought that anger was the backbone to healing--and to a big extent it was. Often times what kept me going was the realization that what my initial abuser was for me to simply disappear or die before any kind of truth could come out. It was anger that helped me say "******* you" to the part of myself that wanted to suicide. In her (the counsellors) words, the use of pot at that time helped me to self-medicate enough for me to feel a large amount of pain without going into overload. I'm not totally sure what I really think of this because it could have gone both ways. All I know is that there was a very high correlation between women that were in the 12 step program and women that were sexually abused as children. I also know that when I used the 12 step program AND the assult center therapist and didn't use--that I dealt with a lot of stuff.

I still could not stay clear of relationships inwhich the guy used and was violent though I did recognize things quicker and got out quicker.

Later I went to another therapist--a psychiatrist who did 'back therapy' as he called it--basically going back to the past and expressing anger and such at what happened. I had a tough time with this because (as he said, and as the family violence counsellor would likely have said) of rationalization. According to him, it didn't matter that my father was a war veteran who had suffered a lot of abuse himself and had improved the situation for us in every way. It didn't matter that my parents had tried their best with the tools that they had for us. According to him, unless I expressed my own anger towards the whole thing--I would never truly get better. I tried to express anger but I did have a tough time with it. The plus was that at one time I expressed what I thought was a whole lot of anger--I yelled and shouted and cried as I talked in group about my experiences with an ex. Afterwards I felt guilty at first and next week I apologized--only to be told that I hadn't been yelling that loudly and I had a right to be angry. I started to understand some at how this ex had used the terms "over-emotional" with my fear of being "over-emotional" to keep me from disagreeing with him and speaking in anything but a dead, completely non-emotional tone. I found strength in being able to say very loudly "NO, this is NOT ok and I will hang up the phone if you persist" (and mean it). I also found my relationship with my father changed drammatically during that term--I did 'let it all out' with regards to my father and for me it worked, the relationship improved and I felt empowered by the whole deal. Its like, there were 2 parts of me--the child who needed to express things and be heard, and the adult who understood more than the child. Allowing the child to yell at my Dad for a while made it so that the adult could finally function a bit better--I no longer hold my father accountable for stuff that I learned growing up which for me has been a big release.

I have found in most of the counselling sessions I have taken in the women's shelters Ihave been in to be very ineffectual and victimnizing. They give a lot of information about what is an abusive male and how to 'spot them' yet they don't give a lot of information at how to adjust ones own behavior to either not get pulled in, or on what ELSE to do other than respond how we have/had always responded. Alanon was far better than that.

I have found different meetings to meet different needs even within A.A. and Alanon. One meeting, for example, in B.C. I found many there where as we went around the room, many suggested simply leaving the alcoholic rather than working on oneself. I tried that and ended up exchanging tom for harry, then ralph and then getting all worked up about a dude that was on a diet, and finally here I am again married to another dry-druggie and still having problems within myself. I also went to other meetings where many of them were still married to the dude and very happy despite the drinking. This is the type of recovery I am interested in because to me, it seems the strongest type--to be able to be around someone who is being a twit and NOT get pulled in to their twit-state seems to me to be what its all about. I get pulled in far too often regardless of what or how much they are using or not using.

I HATE the term co-dependant because it makes it seem like its our fault no matter what we do just because we love them.

I wander if it was in the 2nd world war and I risked my life inorder to save another soldier if that would be considered co-dependant behavior and sick or heroic and brave.

I figure that different aspects of each program are good and for me, the blending of more than one program helps but its important to not take any one persons word as gospel because they are likely just as screwed up as I am. Even a counsellor who is supposedly helping people with 'co-dependancy' issues is likely just as screwed up because they are getting paid to deal with lots of us.

I found these articles very interesting to read. Thanks for the links.

Five

You seem to be of strong mind - I am sure that will serve you will.

Again, an inspiration and very interesting to read.

waterlily

I found the treatment I received as my husband gave up drinking to be very disturbing. I did find support from women in Al-anon and found they had much to offer, but I also felt that the characterization of the shrewish wife was very unfair (I'm not a yeller and never nagged about his drinking) and that my own pain, loneliness and anger was sort of a non-issue both in recovery groups and in counselling with three different marriage counselors. In this way, those forms of treatment did not help me at all.

I was very angry at my husband, not for his drinking, but for his treatment of me. That anger was not well received (too unfeminine?). My hope for growth through my own depression was to honor all of my feelings. I know that a person can get past it, but I needed enough friendship from folks to say, "Hey, who wouldn't be angry in those circumstances? Now let's see how to get beyond it." We have no space for women's anger in our culture and yet it seems to be the only socially sanctioned emotion men are allowed. Do we think this contributes to abuse?

I also concur with the article's note that treatment centers for abused women often continue to emotionally abuse the women and offer less than what they could to support their growth. This is from a friend's experience, so my perspective has its limits. She needed to learn to make choices and there was no such thing in that environment; the women who stayed were further infantilized by house rules and rigid living conditions.

And, come to think about it, why shouldn't the abuser be made to leave? Why do we focus on the woman leaving? Oftentimes, family, friends and church do not help because of their sexism.

Just some thoughts here from a feminist perspective.