historyteach

Yes, that one hit me too.
And so did the low self esteem and the impulse disorder.
Each one of them fits.
And it's just too bad. None of it had to be....
Well, thanks for sharing this Gabe. Very interesting reading.

Shalom!

minnie

The way I see it now is that lying is all part the wider "game" and I treat it as such. It does me (or anyone else) no good to think "Oh, poor thing, he must have such terrible self-esteem if he has to lie" or "He is lying because he is scared of telling me the truth."

I am always interested in understanding the reasons why, because I have that kind of mind. But that doesn't move me away from the fact that I have a boundary about lying and if someone can't respect that, then they have no place in my life.

Hopefloats

Gabe, is there any information on those that believe their own lies? OR maybe I missed it here, and if so I apologize.

I know there is alot of research on "perception"
Through another person's "lens" TO them, what they say is not a lie, if you were to ask them. Because someting "feels" a certain way to that person, it does become their "truth". I have seen this theory challenged.
Thanks...
Hope

Gabe

I'll look around Hope.
I think there are some people who believe their own lies.
I also think that is a deeper pathology than we are discussing here.
I don't think the chronic liar believes their own lies at all.
That is where the lack of self-esteem comes in.
I also think it's more than lack of self-esteem.
I really believe this is a compulsion, not unlike addiction.
A person becomes accustomed to lying and those lies just drip off their tongue at a moments notice, for no particular reason.
This leaves people of the truth at a loss.
As in the famous statement "Why would someone lie about something like that?"
Perhaps this is why the program doesn't work for "people of the lie".
It's an honest program and you can't live an honest program when lying has become a habit pattern.

Hopefloats

Makes perfect sense to me. The truth can be painful...BUT non-truth is much worse. It has such a scattered effect in life. I always said, I can deal with anything, AS long as I know what it is that I am dealing with.

I will be watching in case you come across more..
Thank you
Hope

Gabe

That is the most difficult part of dealing with people who lie.
You never know what is true and what isn't.

Gabe

Oh, and a question...for anyone who feels like answering.
Do you think it's possible that a person can be incapable of telling the truth?
People who lie compulsively scare me.
Because first you discover the "inconsequential lies", the ones that really don't matter, but are lies nonetheless.
Inevitably, this leads to discovering the bigger, more dramatic lies.
That's when you start wondering if anything they say is the truth.
I think complusive lying has a snowball effect, just like addiction.
And both proceed downhill at a frightening speed.

Justme57

Morning all!
I hope you dont mind me commenting here, but this is a great thread, and lying was such a HUGE part of my life before recovery.

For me, I have found since doing my 4th step, that my lying was directly linked to my lack of self esteem. As a child, I had to lead a very secret life. my mother was addicted to Chloral Hydrate, and spent all her time sleeping, it was impressed on me at an early age by my father, that nothing was ever to be mentioned outside the home regarding this. i started to lie long before I picked up a drink, so it became habitual, and of course after becoming a drunk, it was a necessity.

I am now 26 months sober, and made a concious decision never to lie again, even " little white ones". My Sponser told me at an early time to "do the next right thing" and I do get quite excited and pleased that I can and do, choose to tell the truth, and the benefits have been amazing!

Unfortunately, my family have yet to make any contact with me, due to my past lying ect, but I believe , in Gods time, when we are both ready this may happen.

Thanks for letting me share
HUGX
Lee

Greenbug

May I suggest a book that deals with perspective in recovery. It has/was a big help for me. Also a great read either way, or course my opinion. Perspective I believe is a direct reflection of self esteem, or ones perception of self esteem.


http://www.12stepmiracles.com/books/glasses.htm

~GB

Justme57

Hi Greenbug

I have that book on CDs , it is great I think

HUGX
Lee

Hopefloats

Gabe, many people are incapable of telling the truth, if they choose not to receive the help they need to overcome it. But that first step has to be "admitting" and going from there.

It is hard to sit back and watch someone try desperately to cover their tracks. And just because someone does not always challenge the person, that lies... that does not mean they are believed either. It just means that people refuse to play that game and so they stay focused on their own lives, and put distance when necessary.

For me, a tell-tale sign is hearing words like "I did not mean to" (shows no sign of responsibility) The truth is they did it and they did mean to. Now the person may show remorse but to do something you mean to do, and say you did NOT mean to do it, is a lie.

Another stand out for me is "It was an accident"
NO, accidents happen in automobiles. When we DO something, it was NOT an accident. I would much rather hear.."I did that, and it was a mistake on my part" The key again is hearing ownership in it all.

I will tell you a little secret. Back in the days when I WAS checking up on my AD, one of her drug friends phone number is one digit off from my home number. I would call AD from the cell phone just to see WHO answered. I would then proclaim that I dialed that number by mistake, saying I was trying to call home.....That was lying and deceiving and I did NOT own it back then. I was just so desperate to know where Ad was and what she was doing.

SO honestly, I lied to her. And that was not healthy and NOT at all recovery like.

Just some added thoughts. The funny thing that did happen though, was in my AD's drug state of mind, is that she would be trying to call her drug friend with the almost exact phone number as me, and get her MOTHER. NOT the person she was looking for! LOL
Hope

Gabe

The people who scare me the most are the people who can lie without skipping a beat.
Because it's second nature to them.
And they think lying about the "inconsequential" things in life doesn't count. They don't realize the impact that all those lies have on the people who love them.
I like what Lee said above about living an honest program that is lie-free.
The benefits of the truth are amazing indeed.
And much better than the consequences of lies.

minnie

They scare me too, Gabe. I have learnt from harsh experience to run at the first red flag on that score. I wish I could warn the whole world, but all I can do is look after myself.

Boys (or girls) that cry wolf have no place in my life.

Hopefloats

I agree. My mom did not tolerate lying of any kind. It was a huge NO-NO in our home. Our consequences were fair, and we were held accountable.

Much like the addict, when I was in the throws of my daughter's addiction (where I did NOT belong) AND my codependency I would find myself saying pretty much anything to find out things about her. Because I was desperate to find out what I needed to find out. I am not happy looking back AT that person.
It went against every thing that I believed in.

Dealing with the truth is so much easier.
My recovery brought me right back on track.
And I am grateful, SO grateful for that..
I am responsible for "my" truth and others are responsible for "their" truth.
I just thought of something else. I think pretending to be someone you are not, is another form of lying...

Hopefloats

AMEN Minnie
Hope

Gabe

Dishonesty takes many forms...unfortunately.
And Minnie, yeah...my red flags go flying all over the place when I realize that someone has been lying to me...or to someone else for that matter.

Greenbug

Well I really missed the mark on this thread. I normally read the first post then reply as it would apply to me. The title caught my eye and I shared accordingly.

Now that I have read the first post I realize now this is a theoretical hypothesis thread on low self esteem.

Oh well - it really was a good book!

lol

~GB

Gabe

Dual Diagnosis or Co-Occurring Disorders

The term dual diagnosis is often used interchangeably with the terms co-morbidity, co-occurring illnesses, concurrent disorders, comorbid disorders, co-occurring disorder, dual disorder, and, double trouble. Professional literature has used a confusing array of terms and acronyms to describe co-occurring disorders or a dual diagnosis.

Individuals who experience a dual diagnosis often face a wide range of psychosocial issues and may experience multiple interacting illnesses (more than two). The term "co-occurring disorders" is becoming a common term used to refer to dual diagnosis, or co-occurring substance abuse disorders and psychiatric or emotional illnesses.

Dual Recovery Anonymous defines "dual diagnosis" as meaning that an individual has two separate but very interrelated diagnoses:

1. A psychiatric diagnosis
2. A substance abuse diagnosis which may include both drugs and alcohol

A dual diagnosis occurs when an individual is affected by both chemical dependency and an emotional or psychiatric illness. Both illnesses may affect an individual physically, psychologically, socially, and spiritually. Each illness has symptoms that interfere with a person’s ability to function effectively and relate to themselves and others. Not only is the individual affected by two separate illnesses, both illnesses interact with one another. The illnesses may exacerbate each other and each disorder predisposes to relapse in the other disease. At times the symptoms can overlap and even mask each other making diagnosis and treatment more difficult.

A person may sincerely try to recover from one illness and not acknowledge the other. As a person neglects his or her mental illness, that illness may recur. This recurrence may, in turn, lead a person to feel the need to "self-medicate" through drug use. Over time, the lack of progress toward recovery on both fronts may trigger feelings of failure and alienation. Perhaps the greatest tragedy is the damage that occurs to the individual’s self-esteem.
~From Dual Recovery Anonymous

Hopefloats

Gabe, with what I understand about the dual diagnoses, AND I am still learning alot, I get stuck on how effective the medications per say can work for one thing when the person is ingesting drugs. I understand how one things can feed another. I keep thinking about what the doctor said at Lynne's recovery center when she was there. Example: Lynne having an anxiety disorder. Taking the medications for that cannot work properly while she is using street drugs. So to me, it only makes sense that the body needs to clean from drugs or alcohol so that when other needed medications are introduced they can do the job they need to do.

If an alcoholic is taking an antidepressant and drinking I would think the antidepressant just cannot work as intended. Alcohol is a depressant.


As I said, I am still learning. I am not a doctor for sure, but still curious about all of this. My daughter was depressed and that was left unchecked for a long time. Here was a girl that insisted that she needed her anxiety medicine...BUT was using cocaine which is a stimulant.

We know of many people with a dual diagnoses that get counseling and the proper medications and still use. Again, I just don't see how medications can work properly as long as a person is using drugs.

I do believe that the "whole" of a person must be addressed when dealing with addiction. The one thing they can never put in a bottle, is "responsiblity". Our addicts, no matter what the situation is, have to take responsibility for their own well being, and do as the doctor orders.

I cannot argue against many theories because I do not know enough about them. But I still believe that my daughter needs to get off street drugs for a proper regimen of psych. drugs to take effect, if in fact she needs them.

My wish of course is that all our addicts do get the help that they need.

Just some morning ramblings here..
HOPE

Jazzman

Gabe, this jumped right out at me so I googled Histrionic and BANG!
http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/histrion.htm
This is exactly what my ex suffers from and I would say the catalyst for her chemical dependency problems. Thanks for the post. I have had many questions answered as a result.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Scott