'White knuckle sobriety'?
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Originally Posted by Redmayne 
For all those who've taken part on this post thus far and for more constructive comment and observation can I refer you to the book,'As Bill Sees It' 1967. The A.A. Way of Life (Selected writings of A.A.' Co-Founder)
Specifically to the headings, Dry Bender, Dry Drunk: See Anger, Depression, Resentment.
Specifically to the headings, Dry Bender, Dry Drunk: See Anger, Depression, Resentment.
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
Dry Drunk Syndrome is a real term being used in regards to addiction recovery. as such it is not considered a derogatory term .
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i was not making a determination, only stating that AS the term is used in specific settings it is not USED as a derogatory term, only a title of a commonly recognized situation. as a syndrome.
like Alcohol Use Disorder. some people might take offense to be considered disordered.
i know you are strong proponent of AVRT, but isn't it true that just making the decision to never drink again isn't always enough..........for some? are there no examples of AVRTrs who have relapsed and then struggle to get back?
like Alcohol Use Disorder. some people might take offense to be considered disordered.
i know you are strong proponent of AVRT, but isn't it true that just making the decision to never drink again isn't always enough..........for some? are there no examples of AVRTrs who have relapsed and then struggle to get back?
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
are there no examples of AVRTrs who have relapsed and then struggle to get back?
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
i was not making a determination, only stating that AS the term is used in specific settings it is not USED as a derogatory term, only a title of a commonly recognized situation. as a syndrome.
like Alcohol Use Disorder. some people might take offense to be considered disordered.
i know you are strong proponent of AVRT, but isn't it true that just making the decision to never drink again isn't always enough..........for some? are there no examples of AVRTrs who have relapsed and then struggle to get back?
like Alcohol Use Disorder. some people might take offense to be considered disordered.
i know you are strong proponent of AVRT, but isn't it true that just making the decision to never drink again isn't always enough..........for some? are there no examples of AVRTrs who have relapsed and then struggle to get back?
I've only heard the term used inside the rooms of AA. It is usually used to describe someone who has quit drinking yet remains miserable.
Now... unless a person shares they are miserable or I make this assumption because they always appear to be in a bad mood I wouldn't know.
For me it's not a question of simply feeling irritability and/or discontent. This happens to everyone. Unless you're a Vulcan like Mr. Spock.
The question for me anyway is how long do l I wallow in such negativity. Such self-pity.
Personally, I find this business of "My sobriety is better than your sobriety" telling.
Because as Mesaman wrote above if one is content in sobriety they aren't pointing fingers. Live and let live. You offer your experience, strength and hope. If the other person is receptive fantastic.
On the other hand if they decide to take a different route and it works works for them.
That's great too.
Sobriety isn't a game. It's not us vs. them. It's about helping the alcoholic who still suffers.
Redmayne
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Thank you..
Thank you for restoring my faith in my sobriety. Quality will always beat longevity, especially in recovery just as complete abstinence beats perfect moderation...and this site...
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Originally Posted by Redmayne
Thank you for restoring my faith in my sobriety. Quality will always beat longevity, especially in recovery just as complete abstinence beats perfect moderation...and this site...
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It appears others have discussed such questions before. I thought this thread might be of interest:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...dry-drunk.html (Can anyone tell me what a "dry drunk" is??)
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...dry-drunk.html (Can anyone tell me what a "dry drunk" is??)
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Originally Posted by Sohard
You somewhat just proved my whole point. When (originally) asking about “Dry Drunk”, you were inferring those who don’t do AA have less “quality”. That’s why I don’t like those terms. No one knows about anyone else’s sobriety, so I don’t think those terms should be used. Anyway, just my opinion. I truly don’t mean this argumentatively. I just mean when now “quality” finally pops up, I feel we’re getting somewhere. Terms like dry drunk, to me, are used to judge the quality of someone else’s sobriety.
This I assume to mean they were unhappy in sobriety.
But my experience has been it's not that common to hear blanket statements like, "Anyone sober but not in recovery (meaning AA) is in fact... a dry drunk."
I'm a believer in AA but the nature of alcoholism is such that we're not talking about a fellowship of particularly healthy people.
Not bad people mind you. I find a majority of AA members mean well...yet are not always the healthiest bunch including yours truly.
No need to pretend we in AA have it (sobriety) together more than someone who chooses to a different journey.
As long as you're on a journey right for you... it's all good.
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Originally Posted by Ken33xx
With regards to AA meetings: Sometimes when members return from drinking especially if they had been sober for a number of years they share they drank again because they were never really sober in the first place. They were "dry drunk."
This I assume to mean they were unhappy in sobriety.
But my experience has been it's not that common to hear blanket statements like, "Anyone sober but not in recovery (meaning AA) is in fact... a dry drunk."
I'm a believer in AA but the nature of alcoholism is such that we're not talking about a fellowship of particularly healthy people.
Not bad people mind you. I find a majority of AA members mean well...yet are not always the healthiest bunch including yours truly.
No need to pretend we in AA have it (sobriety) together more than someone who chooses to a different journey.
As long as you're on a journey right for you... it's all good.
This I assume to mean they were unhappy in sobriety.
But my experience has been it's not that common to hear blanket statements like, "Anyone sober but not in recovery (meaning AA) is in fact... a dry drunk."
I'm a believer in AA but the nature of alcoholism is such that we're not talking about a fellowship of particularly healthy people.
Not bad people mind you. I find a majority of AA members mean well...yet are not always the healthiest bunch including yours truly.
No need to pretend we in AA have it (sobriety) together more than someone who chooses to a different journey.
As long as you're on a journey right for you... it's all good.
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.
Sohard ~
Man, thanks a bazillion for the Link you put up in Post #51. It is an absolutely goldmine! It's nice to see some old names therein, as well as names of Folks I never crossed paths with here.
.
Sohard ~
Man, thanks a bazillion for the Link you put up in Post #51. It is an absolutely goldmine! It's nice to see some old names therein, as well as names of Folks I never crossed paths with here.
.
Redmayne
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Fact and truth.
'Everything you hear (or read) is opinion,
Everything you see is perception,' Marcus Aurelius.
Which accords with Epictetus advice that,' when we confront any situation we must first decide what is up to us'... i.e what is and isn't under our control..
What isn't under our control, our parents, families, friends, the weather, the economy, our bodies, although we can diet and exercise , our deaths and just ab out everything else, including others who post threads on SR,their views and opinions etc.
What is under our control, our opinions, judgements, perception and desires...
Which suggests any criticism of others should at least be by way of constructive criticism bound in credibility rather than inferences based on those people or things which are not under your control...
'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned,' - the Dalai Lama.
Everything you see is perception,' Marcus Aurelius.
Which accords with Epictetus advice that,' when we confront any situation we must first decide what is up to us'... i.e what is and isn't under our control..
What isn't under our control, our parents, families, friends, the weather, the economy, our bodies, although we can diet and exercise , our deaths and just ab out everything else, including others who post threads on SR,their views and opinions etc.
What is under our control, our opinions, judgements, perception and desires...
Which suggests any criticism of others should at least be by way of constructive criticism bound in credibility rather than inferences based on those people or things which are not under your control...
'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned,' - the Dalai Lama.
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Originally Posted by Redmayne
'Everything you hear (or read) is opinion,
Everything you see is perception,' Marcus Aurelius.
Which accords with Epictetus advice that,' when we confront any situation we must first decide what is up to us'... i.e what is and isn't under our control..
What isn't under our control, our parents, families, friends, the weather, the economy, our bodies, although we can diet and exercise , our deaths and just ab out everything else, including others who post threads on SR,their views and opinions etc.
What is under our control, our opinions, judgements, perception and desires...
Which suggests any criticism of others should at least be by way of constructive criticism bound in credibility rather than inferences based on those people or things which are not under your control...
'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned,' - the Dalai Lama.
Everything you see is perception,' Marcus Aurelius.
Which accords with Epictetus advice that,' when we confront any situation we must first decide what is up to us'... i.e what is and isn't under our control..
What isn't under our control, our parents, families, friends, the weather, the economy, our bodies, although we can diet and exercise , our deaths and just ab out everything else, including others who post threads on SR,their views and opinions etc.
What is under our control, our opinions, judgements, perception and desires...
Which suggests any criticism of others should at least be by way of constructive criticism bound in credibility rather than inferences based on those people or things which are not under your control...
'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned,' - the Dalai Lama.
maybe next time just start your original post as a statement, rather than a question.
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Reading back over your initial post, you explained you were “puzzled” and wondered if you “were missing something”. I guess you weren’t puzzled at all. Turns out stoic philosophers and Roman emperors had all the answers you needed. So, I’ll consider this thread closed and not visit here again.
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Originally Posted by Redmayne
I'm always puzzled by those who practice what is known as 'white knuckle sobriety', to effect their recovery from alcoholism.
Which as I understand it takes place where a person suffering from alcoholism, under the description that it's a two fold disease/illness consisting of a physical allergy and a mental obsession, the only respite from which is complete abstinence.
Simply stops drinking, without putting any other form of recovery in their life, and , metaphorically speaking, just clings on to their sobriety to the extent they turn their knuckles white, with the ever present risk that one day. They'll 'lose their grip' and suffer a relapse...from which they may never return...
I raise this question simply on the basis that if recovery where that simple, i.e. just stopping drinking. I know mine certainly wasn't, we'd all be doing it. And were not unless I'm missing something?
Or there's something, someone hasn't told me?
Which as I understand it takes place where a person suffering from alcoholism, under the description that it's a two fold disease/illness consisting of a physical allergy and a mental obsession, the only respite from which is complete abstinence.
Simply stops drinking, without putting any other form of recovery in their life, and , metaphorically speaking, just clings on to their sobriety to the extent they turn their knuckles white, with the ever present risk that one day. They'll 'lose their grip' and suffer a relapse...from which they may never return...
I raise this question simply on the basis that if recovery where that simple, i.e. just stopping drinking. I know mine certainly wasn't, we'd all be doing it. And were not unless I'm missing something?
Or there's something, someone hasn't told me?
White knuckling- just not drinking.
You aren't necessarily a "jerk" - ie showing the same character defects as AA calls them, or messed up thinking, or overt bad choices but...
then you have the Dry Drunk . Which is to me the greatest pejorative, one I use quite specifically and selectively, and have lived with - my mom.
I believe this type of person is the worst kind. It can be the most dishonest of all. There is no integrity. It is a completely untrustworthy kind of "recovery." Y'all get the idea of how I feel about this.
Everyone here knows I don't believe that abstinence is enough, that sobriety is enough, that the true word and goal should be recovery. THAT is what is the backdrop of my life. Getting sober was simply the first step. It's not about the alcohol anymore. By living a strong recovery program, it never has to be again.
Peace.
PS I like quotes from all sources bc I generally recognize one or learn something new.
Redmayne
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If anyone...
If anyone was going to say something based on logic and reason heavily seasoned with good old fashioned, sound common sense. It was going to be you, thank you...
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Originally Posted by Sohard
It appears others have discussed such questions before. I thought this thread might be of interest:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...dry-drunk.html (Can anyone tell me what a "dry drunk" is??)
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...dry-drunk.html (Can anyone tell me what a "dry drunk" is??)
Originally Posted by awuh1
Note Joes comment "anyone who drank like me, needs to change if they want to remain sober and lead a happy productive life. I believe that alcoholism has a lot more to do with the person, than with the liquid".
I think this gets at the heart of so many conflicts here at SR. There seems to be two somewhat different groups of drinkers that often talk past each other.
The first group is what might be called drinkers who’s primarily problem is their alcohol consumption. They had problems as a result of their drinking. Drinking caused the problems (DUIs depression etc.). They found a way to quit drinking without changing alot of other things in their lives, and their lives got allot better. They could stay stopped and remain (for the most part) happily abstinent. You often hear comments from these folks like "the only essential thing necessary to quit drinking is to stop ingesting alcohol". Their focus in sobriety is to keep from drinking, because that, after all, was the core of the problem.
The second group is what I would call drinkers whose primary problem(s) was/were not alcohol. You often hear comments from them like "alcohol was not the problem it was the solution". The comment by Joe above is another good example. "These folks needed to both stop drinking and to change allot of other things (and somewhat different things, depending on the nature of the problems).
There is of course a vast middle ground between the two groups. Often I see people who are in the first group claiming that the second group are doing things that are not necessary, or even totally irrelevant for recovery. The second group often states that much more is needed (to bring about the needed change) than those in the first group claim.
Both claims are correct and both are wrong if stated in terms meant to apply to everyone.
IMO The term "dry drunk" nearly always applies to folks in the second group who have not done enough to address the fundamental problem(s) involved in their past drinking. The term can be either helpful or harmful depending on the context and the intentions of the person using it. Though rare, I feel it does have its place between two people in that second group.
I think this gets at the heart of so many conflicts here at SR. There seems to be two somewhat different groups of drinkers that often talk past each other.
The first group is what might be called drinkers who’s primarily problem is their alcohol consumption. They had problems as a result of their drinking. Drinking caused the problems (DUIs depression etc.). They found a way to quit drinking without changing alot of other things in their lives, and their lives got allot better. They could stay stopped and remain (for the most part) happily abstinent. You often hear comments from these folks like "the only essential thing necessary to quit drinking is to stop ingesting alcohol". Their focus in sobriety is to keep from drinking, because that, after all, was the core of the problem.
The second group is what I would call drinkers whose primary problem(s) was/were not alcohol. You often hear comments from them like "alcohol was not the problem it was the solution". The comment by Joe above is another good example. "These folks needed to both stop drinking and to change allot of other things (and somewhat different things, depending on the nature of the problems).
There is of course a vast middle ground between the two groups. Often I see people who are in the first group claiming that the second group are doing things that are not necessary, or even totally irrelevant for recovery. The second group often states that much more is needed (to bring about the needed change) than those in the first group claim.
Both claims are correct and both are wrong if stated in terms meant to apply to everyone.
IMO The term "dry drunk" nearly always applies to folks in the second group who have not done enough to address the fundamental problem(s) involved in their past drinking. The term can be either helpful or harmful depending on the context and the intentions of the person using it. Though rare, I feel it does have its place between two people in that second group.
Doesn't that apply to anyone?
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