Bulgakova

Hello all,

Fairly new here and have been wondering if this is mostly a place for 12-step folks? Thought it's easiest to simply ask.

Anyone here have experience with therapies/programs that are more cognitively based, or other alternatives? Or effective self therapy? Clinical one-on-one? Effective literature? Modern drug treatment?

I do not want to debate methods--simply see who's here for the non-religious/spiritual, and how it went for them. Perhaps create dialogue for the alternative approach folks.

Thanks and happy sober Monday!

sainos

Hello Bulgakova, there is a secular forum, in which people share other approaches than 12 step I am doing AVRT and theres lots of information in the secular forum on that, and on SMART, Lifering etc

Bulgakova

*facepalm* How the heck did I miss that?? Haha thanks Sainos--it is indeed a gold mine

Dee74

SR is open to everyone Bulgakova

The Secular Connections forum is the only place here where 12 step programmes are off topic... but non AA programmes can be discussed in any forum, including this one

Cleansing

Had multiple years clean then relapsed. The therapist I had a few years back was very helpful and I had a full life back then while sober.

I have about 16 months sober now and the therapy I have right now is doing more harm than good.

I still make 12 step meetings regularly, but I'm not spiritual and have no God in my life. No one is kicking me out and I'm welcomed there.

bemyself

I've grown to using the smorgasbord approach, I guess you'd say. AA meetings / phone calls or texts with old timers; bits of avrt, and overall secular / psychology / brain science frameworks; mindfulness / meditation / Buddhist teachings esp on addiction / craving / suffering / recovery - there's a lot out there in all these areas and they're mostly always evolving. Well, some are evolving and I'm drawn to those. 'More will be revealed...' thinking keeps me on the path to sanity. Whilst also coming back to keep it simple, day at a time. Whatever I need each day - including lots of 'chop wood, carry water'.

BrendaChenowyth

Spirit is synonymous with soul. So non-spiritual approaches to recovery would have to omit healing the soul? The body needs release from chemical dependency, no doubt, but the person inside the body is probably at the core of it all. My higher power is the divinity within me. Just thought I'd share a different way to look at it.

I know... you mean non-religious.

soberlicious

There are many people who are spiritual, and even religious, who choose a secular approach to ending their addiction. They believe in a higher power, or God even, but do not rely on that to keep them from drinking.

One secular approach I'm familiar with, AVRT, purposefully doesn't address "healing the soul", because the laser focus is on ending the addiction to substances only. Once the addiction has ended, then one is free to move on in life in any manner they see fit. For many, that includes therapy, reconnecting with their spirituality, healing relationships, taking care of their health, etc Approaches like AVRT omit the topics of "underlying issues" and spirituality/religion because through the lens of AVRT, ending an addiction is not contingent on these things.

Many philosophies don't believe in the concept of "soul", so healing one's soul wouldn't be a goal for those folks. I think the idea of building a better life is on the forefront for many of us, and that can be accomplished when addiction has been ended.

BrendaChenowyth

I guess for me it was so much deeper than a chemical dependency that I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to have JUST the substance abuse piece to contend with.. But I never thought that whole, happy people could treat themselves the way we treat ourselves..

soberlicious

I don't think for most people it is just the substance abuse piece...but the other pieces cannot be fit back into place without taking care of that piece first, in my opinion. Quitting for me is one piece. I did that by setting drinking or using as never an option, despite my unhappy messy life and the rocky place I was at emotionally at the time (which is actually quite euphemistic because I was in the psych ward, so it was a little more than rocky). I did not want all my "fixing my soul" and "underlying issues" stuff wrapped up with ending my addiction, because if I couldn't figure out that stuff right away, then it gave me an excuse to drink. If I had a higher power, then lost faith in that higher power, then it gave me an excuse to drink. By taking care of that piece first without any ties to being right spiritually or emotionally healthy ...I could end my addiction. Then (and only then) could I go on to work on whatever things in my life I needed to do to bring me happiness.

The way I view the use of substances as not an option means that anything can happen; I can have a higher power or not, I can have happy relationships or not, I can be successful at my job or I can be unemployed...none of it matters in relation to my addiction because that's over. I still won't drink even if all else falls to sh*t (which it does periodically because...life). As I said, quitting for me is one piece, a separate piece on purpose. Because without permanent abstinence for me, nothing else is possible. With permanent abstinence in place, everything is possible.

Not sure if I made sense here or if you're picking up what I'm putting down but it's just what worked for me.

BrendaChenowyth

I think there are usually underlying issues, just my opinion, and I don't think they can be dealt with until the chemical dependency is gone.

I was always told I had to quit before even thinking about working steps or doing self-discovery. I struggled with that for a long time because I felt powerless and confused that with helpless. Once I helped myself I started to learn how I could gain more power.. Through the help of something more powerful than me. I needed some kind of power source to plug in to.

If I don't think I need that, if I don't think I'm powerless, why am I still drinking, why can't I quit.... then it is necessary to admit that we have nothing stopping us from stopping drinking.. if we don't need a higher power, then it should be within our capability to quit

soberlicious

Well, I can only speak for myself...Why couldn't I quit? Not because I was powerless, but because I believed I was powerless.

I agree that nothing can be dealt with effectively until use of substances has ceased for sure. But I disagree with those who have said to me, "without addressing those issues, you are doomed to drink again." Not true for me and many others like me. Will I be happier if I address those things through therapy, or some other plan of self discovery/better living? Pretty sure, yes. Will I be drunk if I don't ever fix them? Absolutely not.

Miramira

Loving your stuff soberlicious!!

soberlicious

My experience with treatment centers is that most do not have a wide number of approaches. It was mandatory for me to attend recovery group meetings while inpatient, and also mandatory that I had a group set up to go to upon my dismissal from the center. It was also "strongly suggested" that I find God and pray to Him daily. I complied with all things asked (read: went through the motions), because I had put my family through enough and I needed to reassure them in some way that they felt comfortable with, but it's not how I quit or stayed quit. That decision was made prior, on my own, in the psych ward before I ever entered the treatment center. Almost 10 years later, and forever more, I am a nondrinker for life.

Gottalife

Speaking for myself, mine was the opposite experience. I couldn't stop because I believed I wasn't powerless. The great obsession of every abnormal drinker. This time I will be in control. This time, it will be ok. As long as I thought I could beat it, it beat me.

The first step in getting well was recognising I was beat. Knowing that I could never safely drink again under any circumstances was key in embarking on a life of permanent sobriety.

soberlicious

I cannot see how this is opposite of what I said? I believe the same. Permanent abstinence is the key to freedom for me.

What I meant was, I believed I was powerless in ending my addiction. Nothing was farther from the truth actually. Everything I needed was inside me all along, I just didn't know it.

Gottalife

Well we agree that permanent abstinence is the key. Where I saw opposite experience was that you said you could not stop because you believed you were powerless, where as I could not stop because I did not believe I was powerless.

The concept of powerlessness never occurred to me in my drinking days, and had nothing to do with me continuing to drink as far as I was aware that is. When I hit the wall and sat down with a kind man from AA , he helped me see the truth of my situation. I saw I had been powerless all along, and that I would never have the power to control and enjoy my drinking.

So the problem then became how to stop all together and that meant finding some power. I found some power. I am not certain where it came from, but I don't think it was in me.

Ken33xx

Interesting read regarding AA and cognitive behavioral therapy
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...vioral-therapy

Aellyce

I have used a very mixed and dynamic approach to recovery over the past nearly 3 years, a bit like bemyself. There was one relapse in it early this year that lasted about 2 months. I think I've tried most known a bit at least but never truly followed any one of them precisely and as originally prescribed... it's just how I am in general, like to make my own "programing" in most things and it changes with time.

Most of the approaches I've used can be classified as secular I guess although I am never truly sure about the meaning of that when it comes to the boundary between secular and spiritual for an agnostic person like myself, who is interested in pretty much everything that piques my curiosity and I find useful, including studying mystical experiences. I would not describe myself as non-spiritual but I am not religious and leave the question of supernatural forces to those that are more connected and competent to delve into it.

To keep in line with the OP and to avoid spreading out too much: I've done regular psychotherapy for ~2.5 years, hardly ever skipping a week and for a while 2-3 sessions per week, plus a lot of in-between-sessions contact with my therapists as well... so quite intense. Worked with three therapists, all of them using a generally psychodynamic framework but with different bent: existential, psychoanalytical and most recently someone quite eclectic (using a combination of tools). I've found all three helpful in different ways but felt closest with the eclectic one, both with provider and approach. Probably because it is most in line with my own thinking and philosophy about the importance of individualized treatment instead of believing in the application of a single method. I am not in regular therapy anymore but keep in touch with the last one and we have an arrangement that I can return if I want to.

From the peer support groups I've personally found SMART most valuable for me. Some things I like about it is that it has a holistic model that can be applied to any addiction or obsessive behavior but goes beyond into broader self- and life-improvement if someone wants to expand it. It aspires to empower the individual, increase self-esteem and personal responsibility, and teach tools we can apply in the here-and-now.

As for the SMART toolkit, it uses elements from cognitive therapy models such as Acceptance & Commitment Therapy (ACT), which is one of the several acceptance-based, “newest generation,” cognitive behavioral therapies. It also has things in common with earlier cognitive therapy approaches like CBT and Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT). It involves peer group meetings led by facilitators who are typically trained lay people and are not there in a professional role (but I met a couple mental health professionals among them). It does not involve working one-on-one (like with a sponsor in AA or with a guide sometimes in Refuge Recovery) although of course people form friendships. I have found the pragmatic SMART tools especially useful to cope with cravings for alcohol and other obsessional urges.

It's hard for me to say what tools have been most helpful in my recovery as I've juggled so many (also used parts of AVRT, AA, went to an inpatient rehab once, and psych meds for a few months). It's easier to say that the things I've described above in this post have been my personal favorites.

I am also interested in elements of Eastern philosophies, especially Buddhism (and worked with a fantastic teacher in the past), but I have been into these for a very long time so can't say it has to do with addiction recovery per se.

Aellyce

As for the self-power or powerlessness... I think it's obvious from my post above that I am the kind of person who believes in personal responsibility and tackling my problems in my own way but like and interdependent approach to seeking help. Honestly, I never fully get the debates between powerlessness over an addiction and the power of the individual to elicit significant changes. I think we all have experienced many moments of hopelessness and powerlessness in active addiction (why would anyone repeat those awful cycles?) and also many personal victories that could have never been achieved without using our own determination and willingness to work on lasting recovery. I just fail to see these as opposite poles or mutually exclusive - one reason why I don't like to debate over recovery methods. I never see them as truly contradictory. Reminds me of the message of a recent thread Dee posted: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-elephant.html

So what is recovery?