Stoic

Last night I attended my second AA meeting in a week, the fourth I've attended in the last ten years (the first two were widely spaced). As I posted here last week, I like this meeting -- it's very small, everyone not only has a chance to speak but is almost obligated to do so, and the sharing is enormously helpful. As different as the stories are, I immediately felt that I was among people who understood my struggles and shared the pain.

At both meetings, I've explained my situation -- briefly, I drank for 15-20 years early in my life; gradually got things under control, drinking less and less, with longer periods of abstinence in between; began talking regularly with an old drinking buddy now in AA; and eventually went to an AA meeting with him.

For years, I've acknowledged -- to myself, my wife, my friend, and in those few AA meetings -- that I'm an alcoholic, that I want to stop drinking entirely, and that I know that my life will be better when I succeed at this. And I feel that AA can help me with this.

The problem -- as one participant in last night's meeting pointedly observed -- is that I haven't acquired a sponsor or begun to "work the program." If I were to ask someone to be my sponsor, I'd ask my old friend. And of course I'd begin with the first step, which is to admit I am powerless over alcohol, and that my life has become unmanageable. But this, along with some of the more religious aspects of AA, gives me problems. I have to be completely honest, and I can't really say that I'm powerless over alcohol, or that my life has become unmanageable. I go weeks without a drink. When I do drink, I usually limit myself to a few glasses of wine, perhaps something after dinner.

But there are two problems with this. One is the physiological effect. Because of my earlier abuse of alcohol (I'm sure this is the cause), my brain chemistry is such that even a couple of glasses of wine starts my moods fluctuating, eventually leading to mild depression, the midlle-of-the-night anxieties that I used to experience from a half liter of scotch, early wakefulness, nervousness, and the jitters and hangover all the next day. I'm chemically allergic to alcohol.

The second reason is more spiritual. This repetitive cycle of abstinence, moderate indulgence, negative consequences, and sworn abstinence is idiotic. As I've told my wife, insanity is indeed doing the same thing over and over again, always anticipating a different result. Why do I drink at all? It's not just for the physical pleasure. More than that, as I've posted before, it's the rush that accompanies doing something risky, dangerous, potentially destructive, taking me back to wilder, crazier times. But what I really want is peace.

If I'm going to "work the program," I know I can't be insincere or dishonest with myself. If I'm going to ask my friend to be my sponsor, it means a real commitment on my part -- not just a willingness to go along.

So I'd be very grateful for some advice from the great people here. Ironically, my first AA meeting, some years ago, persuaded me that I had less of a problem than I'd thought, because my experience didn't seem to fit with many of the steps, or with their justification. Perhaps I'd be better off with SMART, which is also an abstinence program, but doesn't require such a psychological leap for me. I've spent a lot of time at their site, although there's no SMART group here in town.

For whatever any of you have to say, I'll be very grateful.

ted

HEY STOIC,THERE ARE PLENTY OF RECOVEY OPTIONS.
I SUGGEST USING THE ONE OR ONES THAT FIT YOU BEST.
BE COMFORATABLE IN YOUR OWN SKIN AS THEY SAY.

GODSPEED STOIC...........ted

ted

YOU MIGHT WANT TO P.M. DON S.,HE HAS ALOT OF KNOWLEDGE IN THIS AREA.

I'M SURE HE COULD STEER YOU IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION...........ted

Stoic

Thanks for your messages, Ted. I posted a similar message at the SMART site, and in fact Don wrote me a longer message in reply that made all kinds of sense. He also suggested that I check out this site, because he often gets good advice from people here. So we're all on the same page.

ted

THERE YA GO :scratchch ....ted

Chy

I know for me, I had my degree of "powerlessness" and "unmanageability". My life was headed to the craper but wasn't there yet. Just the pure emotions, and feelings that went along with my drinking is where I could relate those two importants aspects of Step 1.

We all relate differently in the perception of powerless and unmanageablility, my powelessness in my life, was and is directly related to alcohol. I could pin point key things, to my drinking, the things that made me feel less than. I could identify with the unmanageability creeping into my life, because I didn't like how it made me feel, and who I was becoming, therefore, influencing my behavior, personality in my relationships. IMO you don't have to be on skid row, broke, divorced, homeless, losing it all to claim ownership on how you can apply aspects that you relate and can identify with in step one. Read the 12 x12, it helped me greatly. Once you do choose a sponsor, you can discuss this with him, and I if I were a betting kinda gal, he'll help you find what relates in your life to step one. It's about willing to try out these suggestions with the understanding, my step one won't be the same as your step one, and how it play's out in my recovery. Does this make sense? Please note, this is just MY opinion on how I work my program with my sponsor, we're all different ya know?

Then again, AA isn't for everyone and there are alternatives to 12 step recovery, you may want to see some I've posted on the Links and resources forum.

Stoic

Thanks for your response, Chy. Both here and at the SMART site, people seem to be telling me that it's all about what works for me. This makes sense, and for me -- at least at this stage in my life -- AA makes less sense than SMART.

I've written to my friend, telling him of my reservations about the program, but also that I want to continue attending meetings and also talking with him frequently. Both help a lot.

findingout

I believe that somewhere I heard "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking." It took me quite a while to find a way to "work the steps" that worked for me. Others can only give suggestions by sharing what works for them. If they do this "pointedly", they are still only giving suggestions amd trying to help as best they can. It was very difficult for me at first to not let these "hard core" members scare me away from the tables because they made me feel that if I didn't believe exactly as they did then I had no business at the table. After a time, I found a great many people in the program who were more open minded and were willing to help me find a way to make the program work for me and to have the promises come true in my life. At the end of the day, that is what it is all about.

There are as many paths over the mountain as there are people trying to climb it.

Jah Bless.

Stoic

Thanks for your response. It describes perfectly my own reaction, which at first left me reluctant to attend next week's meeting. But I've decided to go, for the reasons you mention. Perhaps I'll even talk about my difficulties with the first step, and explain the reasons why I want to continue attending meetings.

Patsyd1

Hi Stoic,

"We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable."

I believe many people who come through the doors of AA automatically "think" that the word "powerless" is distasteful and denotes a weakness. And ofcourse no alcoholic can deal with the word "weakness"

Powerless, is not about being weak at all. Its about acknowledging reality. For instance, I had no power over the thoughts that would bombard my mind on a daily basis when it came to alcohol. No matter what I did, or didn't do I could not control the thoughts of alcohol, no matter what I tried to "stop" or "ignore" the constant and relentless thoughts of alcohol, it simply didn't work. I would try reasoning with myself, I would make promises not to drink, with full intent of keeping those promises, and couldn't.

No matter what I did or didn't do, the constant thoughts of getting a drink, just one drink...... were there all the time. I would begin bartering with myself in my mind. Wellllllllll was it really that bad the last time? Gee, maybe its them making too much out of my drinking. I mean everyone is entitled to one drink for God sakes! Geeze, these people are making too much out my drinking. I can drink just one. You know if they weren't constantly watching me, and upsetting me, then I wouldn't have to drink. Anyone would drink if they had my life, what the hell is wrong with having one drink? They have no right to tell me not to drink, I mean after all look at the things that they do, and I don't tell them not to do them. One drink never hurt anyone, ANYONE. I work all week and surely I am entitled to have a drink if I want one. I can stop drinking if I want to, its THEM that drive me crazy, and a drink calms me down is all. Whats the big deal anyways????

I felt anxious, irritable and discontent that would get worse and worse and worse. I would begin to feel angry, resentful and that would turn right into self-pity. Poor poor me, look at all that I do and I can't even have ONE DRINK??? Who do they think they are? And I would begin planning for that drink, or I would just pour a drink, with the full intent of having just ONE. Usually it would begin with the thoughts of "I HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE ONE DRINK AND THE HELL WITH THEM"

I would have one drink, and the physical compulsion for MORE would immediately take over. This illness centers in the mind. The obsession to drink was with me constantly, and the only thing that would relieve this obsession with a drink, was a drink, and once I had one drink, that set off the physical compulsion for MORE and I would continue to drink until I was drunk, sick and out of control.

When I tried ( and I did many times) to just stop after one or two drinks. The obsessive thoughts and the physical compulsion would drive me insane. I wasn't able to concentrate on anything, I wasn't able to sleep, I was nervous, jittery, feeling like I would jump out of my skin with the relentless, constant thoughts of a drink, and then trying to have just one or two and feeling anxious, irritable, discontent, couldn't sleep, feeling as if I would jump out of my skin trying to control the amount of alcohol that I would have.

This was a repeated process over and over and over again, always expecting different results, and always getting the same thing over and over and over again.

My life became unmanagable by me every time that the thoughts of alcohol became relentless, constant, and brought with them a state of complete anxiety, irritability and discontentment, and these uncontrollable thoughts always brought me to the next drink, and desperately trying to control the amount of alcohol that I would drink, and I would become full of anxiety, irritable, discontent, sleepless, extremely nervous, and that would bring me to feeling full of guilt, remorse, and self hate because I was never ever able to have just one drink, without paying the consequences of MORE... and I was never able to just NOT drink, without paying the consequences of the obsession of the mind, anxious, irritable and discontent feelings until I would once again have a drink.

I couldn't drink, and I couldn't not drink.........Powerless is not about weakness, its about REALITY. When I tried to control my drinking, my thinking, my drinking and my life were out of control.

I admitted that I was powerless over alcohol, and my life had become unmanagable by me, my thinking, my actions, my behavior, my words, and my deeds............ thats REALITY.


Stoic, you shared something that I find interesting. What you shared was that:
I would like to ask you something if you do not mind. If you had a chemical allergy to say strawberries..... and everytime that you ate strawberries you would become anxious, irritable, discontent, sleeplessness, early wakefulness, and jittery........ would you still be trying to find a way to eat a couple of strawberries, being fully aware of the consequences of doing so?

The illness of alcoholism centers in the mind.... its an obsession of the mind that insures that I will take that first drink, and a physical compulsion that insures that after I take that first drink I will continue to drink until I am drunk, sick and out of control. When I am trying to control my drinking, then my drinking is out of control.

AA is a spiritual program, not a religious program. For myself, over time, I developed and began practicing a spiritual loss of values. There were things that I was taught growing up that were ingrained, and became part of who I was. I had values that I was taught growing up. Those values were changed, moved, discarded, blurred, and eventually became non existent in my life so that I could drink. I lied, blamed people, places and things, I did and said things that were totally against my own value system, all so that I could get a drink. Over time, my first priority in life, became getting that drink, no matter what.

You shared:
Is the above reality, or is it that you are desperately trying to alter your mind, your thoughts, and your feelings, because you are no longer comfortable in your own skin with or without a drink?
If its peace that you really want, there is a solution. H.O.W..... honesty, openmindedness and willingness to take actions....... that you may not agree with.

If it isn't working your way, then I would suggest doing it another way. Why not give AA, and the suggestions a try. Put aside what you think, and allow those who have done this long before you and I, to help you. I would suggest allowing those AA'ers who have the solution in their life, to pass that solution on to you. The only requirement is a desire to stop drinking, and it sure sounds like you have that.

The only difference between those who are sober in AA, and those who are still drinking is that those who are still drinking simply decline to take actions that they do not agree with.

I am glad to hear that you will be going to another AA meeting, because if what you are doing isn't working for you, then what do you have to lose? ......the obsession of the mind, the physical compulsion, the anxiety, irritability, the discontentment, the guilt, the remorse, and doing the same things over and over again..... expecting different results?

p.s. I am sorry that this post is so long, I just haven't learned to be a woman of few words yet. LOL

Patsy

Stoic

Please don't apologize for such a long message, Patsy. It's a huge help as I try to work my way through this first step, and coincides with a lot of what I've been thinking.

There are a couple of things, for example, that I didn't mention in my first message. One concerns what happens on those occasions where I DO decide to have a drink. I mentioned the pretty rough downside physically, as well as the "rush" of knowing I'm doing something dangerous. But there's also an absolute certainty that if I did the same thing a second night, and a third, for a week, or two or three, I'd be on a serious downward spiral back to where I was years and years ago. It scares the hell out of me, which both explains the "rush" and also explains why I fight not to drink again the next day.

The second is that an addict is an addict, and I've noticed that even when I'm sober for weeks at a time, I have other addictive behaviors. These bother me a lot. But when I'm at a meeting, almost immediately I get this sense of relief, of relaxation, a sense that somehow things are going to be OK, that I don't have to control everything and can just sort of let go. This is enormously therapeutic for me, and I want to understand it, to not let it go.

In last Tuesday's meeting, someone told a story that I've been unable to forget. We were talking about the difficulty of the fourth step, and he told about his struggle with it years earlier. After he came out of rehab, having done his fourth step, we was sober for several months. But he'd left something out, and as he told us the other night, if you leave something out, leave something behind, it's going to lead you back to your next drink. For him, it meant a relapse lasting several months.

It stuck with me because I don't want to leave anything out or behind. I want to get beyond this, by whatever means.

Thanks for again for your message, which helps.

Bob

Patsyd1

Hi Bob,
When I first came through the doors of AA, I too was very nervous when I heard of Step 4. I wanted to do it perfect. There is not such thing
The first suggestion that was given to me by my sponsor was to begin at the beginning. The Steps are in order for a very good reason. It was suggested to me that I stay with Step one, until I was ready to move on to step 2.
I will share this with you though. I was right where I was suppose to be when I did step 4. Did I do it perfectly the first time? Not on your life

I did it to the best of my ability, with what I had at that time......honesty and thoroughness. Did I leave things out? Yes, ofcourse I did, as most of us do. Not on purpose, and as I have come to learn...."more will be revealed" and not necessarily in MY TIME. I have done a few 4th Steps since the first one, and its a journey, one day at a time. The first 4th step that I did, I didn't intentionally leave anything out, and as I have come to learn, that more will be revealed when the time is right, and that I can do another 4th step anytime that I choose to.

And I have not had a drink, a drug or a substitute in 15 continuous years, one day at a time.

I would suggest getting a sponsor and begin, at the beginning... Step one.

Leave Step 4 for when you get there. There are 3 steps ahead of Step 4 for a very good reason.

I know when I was first coming to AA that I wanted it ALL right now. That isn't reality, and I had to learn "First Things First", Keep It Simple....and Easy Does It. AA is a simple program, for complicated people

I am an ALL or NOTHING person, and I had to ask for help with that too. Things began to go alot smoother when I got a sponsor who could guide me, instead of me listening to my own yacking that went on in my own mind..... relentlessly.
We just love to complicate the hell out of everything, so I would suggest keeping it simple.

Stoic, I would strongly suggest staying in today, in this moment, and just do the next right thing that is in front of you...now. Just don't drink, get to AA meetings, get a sponsor, begin at the beginning, and just do one thing at a time, one moment at a time, one step at a time, one day at a time.... and then just keep coming.


Patsy

Stoic

Your messages are an enormous help to me, Patsy. Like you, I'm an "all or nothing" type of person, as I suspect many alcoholics are. The first time I admitted to someone that I had a problem with alcohol, everything went way too fast. First I told my doctor, who got me an appointment with a treatment specialist, who advised me to go to AA as soon as possible. So I confided in my old drinking buddy, who by now had been through rehab and several years of sobriety. I attended an AA meeting with him, and before I even had the opportunity to talk much about my problem, everyone seemed to assume I'd bought into the program completely. I never asked anyone to be my sponsor, nor did I start on the first step. And my situation (I'd already achieved some degree of moderation for a number of years) seemed so different from all the stories I heard at AA meetings that I decided it wasn't for me. I want to take things much more slowly this time.

Taking it step by step, therefore, I have a question. My friend has continued in AA and now has many years of sobriety. We have a lot of history, but also a lot of mutual respect, and if I were to ask someone to be my sponsor, it would be him (as in fact I've told him). Since this is really the first step, however, I don't really know what it entails. What, in effect, am I asking him to do? And what are my responsibilities to him?

I suspect that he's been acting as my de facto sponsor for several years. We get together periodically to talk, sometimes about drinking and and staying sober. We attend the same AA meetings now. Unless there's something I'm unaware of, he would be the guy I'd ask.

In any case, I'd welcome any advice you (or other people here) might have on this. If it makes sense, and he does agree, I can continue talking with him about the first step. (We've already begun this conversation.)

Bob

Patsyd1

Hi Bob,
Yes it sounds as if he has been sponsoring you already to a degree. I would suggest that you ask your friend directly what it is that he as a sponsor would do. He would be the one to answer that question, since so many sponsor in different ways.

I am sponsoring two women, and what I request is that they call me at least once a day, whether they are doing great, good, not so good, or terrible..... just to check in, even if its just to say Hi. I ask them to call me BEFORE they pick up that first sucker drink, not after. I am at AA meetings with them, and I also set aside some time to spend with them one on one. Usually its once a week or so, nothing set in stone.

Imho...the one thing that is so very important for anyone who is considering a commitment to sponsoring anyone, is that they have a sponsor of their own, and have gone through the 12 steps with their own sponsor, and they are applying and practicing the Steps in their own life and be willing to make a commitment to their sponsee that they will help them work, apply and practice the 12 Steps in their life. An AA sponsor is someone who is a member of an AA home group and active in AA and their AA home group. Attending AA meetings, going on commitments, sponsoring and passing on the message of hope.

Your friend sure sounds like he would make a great sponsor. There is one sure way to find out Bob .... ask him

Patsy

findingout

Bob,

What you need to look for in a sponsor is someone like Patsy! Someone who will share what worked for them and help you to get where you need to go and who understands the newcomer has so many questions they need to ask and who has the patience to answer them to the best of their ability. If you are already comfortable talking about the things that matter with your friend, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be your sponsor if he is willing. The only way to find out is to talk about it with him and ask the questions you need to ask. All questions are good, they are how we learn and grow in recovery. "Don't ask, don't tell" is not a slogan that works very well anywhere, but especially not in recovery.

Jah Bless

Stoic

Just a note to thank both of you for your encouragement. I've just sent a note to my old drinking buddy, asking him to be my AA sponsor. From here on, one step at a time...

Bob

Dan

This really is a momentous occasion then.
The already strong bond between you and your friend starts a new chapter in a life long friendhip. What a blessing. I enjoyed reading your posts in this thread Bob. Amazingly insightful.

Don S

Hi, stoic,
The only thing I'd add to Patsy's excellent post is that behavioral approaches such as SMART Recovery (and RR, I suppose) have tools specifically to deal with thoughts and emotions such as she is describing here.
Planning for those urges is a key component of long-term sobriety, and dealing with the thoughts and beliefs that lead to them is basic to self-management.

Don S

Stoic

Thanks, Don. Patsy's posts really struck a chord, because she's describing a kind of "powerlessness" that I can appreciate. I can take a drink -- or two -- and stop. And I can do that again the next night, and the next. But in a week, two weeks, I'm beginning to think about it every day, plan my activities around it, and eventually it sucks up all the oxygen in my life. To most observers, I might seem perfectly normal. But my head is screwing up my life.

As you say, SMART provides some great tools for dealing with these thoughts and urges. I'm going to keep using these, and learning how to use them better. And I'm also going to continue going to meetings, because this helps enormously as well.

Bob

Patsyd1

Hi Bob,

Congrats to you on asking your friend to be your sponsor, you have just begun a beautiful journey Bob

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, I am in the middle of moving to the city that I have always wanted to live in, and I am up to my neck in boxes and packing.

I am so happy for you ((((((Bob)))))))

Patsy