I sit through another meeting
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
AA's one of those things that I get more out of than I put it. But when I was just meeting-sitting, I wasn't putting enough in to mean that what I got back out of it was enough. I didn't think that I needed 'all that stuff' (sponsor and step work and doing service), and I was convinced that I could stay sober by cherry-picking the program. And I did stay sober. Sober and miserable. And getting more and more miserable.
But, when I stopped sitting in meetings waiting for the sobriety fairy to sprinkle me with recovery dust, and found the willingness to: take suggestions; do service; listen for the similarities; become teachable; and apply the principles of the program to my daily life, that's when my recovery started. To be honest, I didn't even have the first clue about the principles of the program from sitting in meetings, and I was wallowing in self pity, ignorant about my character defects and the role I had played, and was continuing to play in my own misery.
The 'suggestions' put to us in the BB and by old timers are, I think, a little like the author of a recipe 'suggesting' ingredients. We can, as grown adults with minds of our own, make that decision that actually, just flour and butter and sugar will be quite enough for us. The thing is, when we get biscuits instead of a cake it's pretty pointless griping about it.
I would put that period of procrastination down as one of the most painful times of my life, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. What have you actually got to lose by trying the program of AA (with all the legs of the stool) before giving up on it?
And if you can't (or don't want to) find the willingness to do the work on your recovery through the 12-step program, then surely it's worth starting to try other avenues and see if you can get some relief through these.
Good luck, whatever you decide.
But, when I stopped sitting in meetings waiting for the sobriety fairy to sprinkle me with recovery dust, and found the willingness to: take suggestions; do service; listen for the similarities; become teachable; and apply the principles of the program to my daily life, that's when my recovery started. To be honest, I didn't even have the first clue about the principles of the program from sitting in meetings, and I was wallowing in self pity, ignorant about my character defects and the role I had played, and was continuing to play in my own misery.
The 'suggestions' put to us in the BB and by old timers are, I think, a little like the author of a recipe 'suggesting' ingredients. We can, as grown adults with minds of our own, make that decision that actually, just flour and butter and sugar will be quite enough for us. The thing is, when we get biscuits instead of a cake it's pretty pointless griping about it.
I would put that period of procrastination down as one of the most painful times of my life, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. What have you actually got to lose by trying the program of AA (with all the legs of the stool) before giving up on it?
And if you can't (or don't want to) find the willingness to do the work on your recovery through the 12-step program, then surely it's worth starting to try other avenues and see if you can get some relief through these.
Good luck, whatever you decide.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,601
Originally Posted by Rmz250 
Can't sit through another meeting and listen to the same jokes, same one liners. I've been lead to believe that meetings and the program are the only way to recover. The thing is I'm not ok even at 15 months. I think about drinking all the time, I don't know how to live sober, I'm sad all the time and I'm isolated because I don't want to be around people who are drinking. Other than meetings I only now people who drink. I'm confused and I'm lost. In a way I want to be a part of a fellowship but I can't just abandon common sense and believe in what the future fellowship says about addiction, to mean it's a bunch of rubbish. (Apologies if this offends anyone but I need to express how I feel). I feel like I'm losing my mind.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
I believe that meeting makers make.... meetings. That being said, I don't think it would be a good move to quit going if you are still obsessing about drinking. You need all the support you can get.
I am a bit concerned to hear you say that at 18 months the obsession still has not been lifted. Have you worked the steps? Do you meditate >yeah I am a big fan of mindfulness LOL < and try to be of service (does not have to be AA, could be volunteering in the community at large to help others and get out of yourself.)
Volunteering is also a good way to meet interesting good hearted folks who have interests other than drinking and partying.
Maybe you should try to go to different AA meetings for a change of scenery or even start attending another fellowship in addition to your regular AA meetings to hear something new and another group's old tired jokes
Lots of people attend both AA and SMART or AA and Refuge Recovery or AA and CR etc.
You could also spend more time on SR and participate in different threads, welcoming and helping the newcomers. This site has a wealth of diversity when it comes to methods to achieve and maintain sobriety and also unfortunately a never ending stream of addicts/alcoholics who are hurting and/or still in active addiction.
One thing for sure and I hope you won't take it the wrong way but it sounds like you are on shaky ground. You are sick and tired of AA which happens and would not be the end of the world if you were not also white knuckling it. That's kind of a recipe for disaster.
If your recovery is getting stale, bitter and boring it's not the right time to give up but instead maybe the time to approach it from a different angle.
Keep going to AA but also explore other avenues and if you find one which really clicks and helps you then move toward that way.
From your posts, the worst possible thing you could do is quit going but not do anything else.
And not matter what you decide, don't drink no matter what.
I am a bit concerned to hear you say that at 18 months the obsession still has not been lifted. Have you worked the steps? Do you meditate >yeah I am a big fan of mindfulness LOL < and try to be of service (does not have to be AA, could be volunteering in the community at large to help others and get out of yourself.)
Volunteering is also a good way to meet interesting good hearted folks who have interests other than drinking and partying.
Maybe you should try to go to different AA meetings for a change of scenery or even start attending another fellowship in addition to your regular AA meetings to hear something new and another group's old tired jokes
Lots of people attend both AA and SMART or AA and Refuge Recovery or AA and CR etc.
You could also spend more time on SR and participate in different threads, welcoming and helping the newcomers. This site has a wealth of diversity when it comes to methods to achieve and maintain sobriety and also unfortunately a never ending stream of addicts/alcoholics who are hurting and/or still in active addiction.
One thing for sure and I hope you won't take it the wrong way but it sounds like you are on shaky ground. You are sick and tired of AA which happens and would not be the end of the world if you were not also white knuckling it. That's kind of a recipe for disaster.
If your recovery is getting stale, bitter and boring it's not the right time to give up but instead maybe the time to approach it from a different angle.
Keep going to AA but also explore other avenues and if you find one which really clicks and helps you then move toward that way.
From your posts, the worst possible thing you could do is quit going but not do anything else.
And not matter what you decide, don't drink no matter what.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 66
I've worked through all the steps in treatment with a sponsor/counsellor (4 hours a day step work for 7 months). There's a lot about the program I agree with and that I find beneficial but there's so much I find a load of nonsense. For starters I am only powerless once I pick up a drink. Even then I hate that term. There have been times in the past when I have'nt gone on a bender after just one drink. If I was completely powerless why could I exercise restraint sometimes and not other times.
For me I don't believe it's the substance that triggers cravings, it's how it makes me feel, the dopamine release in my brain.
I think The big book is outdated in its understanding of what addiction is. Theres a reason why when AA 1st originated it had a better success rate. Because it was a different time. People evolve and what worked back then doesn't work now(at least not for the majority).
Open mindedness? I felt this very hypocritical coming from my counsellors as they were completely shut off from any that wasn't 12 step related.
I don't want to bash AA. It has saved a lot of lives and I thank all those in the fellowship here who have tried to help me. I refuse to see myself as powerless, different from normal people, or fundamentally flawed. I have stayed sober on my own for 15 months because I've chosen too, I'm not powerless. It's true that I'm not happy but that's because I haven't dealt with the underlying causes of my unhappiness. I do believe self obsession is at the core of my discomfort and that helping others does alleviate that (as difficult as I find it, not because I don't like people but because I doubt my ability to help as well as I'm convinced I can think my way out of my problems. It hasn't worked for me so far).
Also I find that when I'm able to distract myself with activities or by helping others there are still things that trigger negative self beliefs about myself and the self obsession starts again. I feel I need to tackle those beliefs.
I guess the biggest problem I have with AA is that I'm always going to be recovering.
For me I don't believe it's the substance that triggers cravings, it's how it makes me feel, the dopamine release in my brain.
I think The big book is outdated in its understanding of what addiction is. Theres a reason why when AA 1st originated it had a better success rate. Because it was a different time. People evolve and what worked back then doesn't work now(at least not for the majority).
Open mindedness? I felt this very hypocritical coming from my counsellors as they were completely shut off from any that wasn't 12 step related.
I don't want to bash AA. It has saved a lot of lives and I thank all those in the fellowship here who have tried to help me. I refuse to see myself as powerless, different from normal people, or fundamentally flawed. I have stayed sober on my own for 15 months because I've chosen too, I'm not powerless. It's true that I'm not happy but that's because I haven't dealt with the underlying causes of my unhappiness. I do believe self obsession is at the core of my discomfort and that helping others does alleviate that (as difficult as I find it, not because I don't like people but because I doubt my ability to help as well as I'm convinced I can think my way out of my problems. It hasn't worked for me so far).
Also I find that when I'm able to distract myself with activities or by helping others there are still things that trigger negative self beliefs about myself and the self obsession starts again. I feel I need to tackle those beliefs.
I guess the biggest problem I have with AA is that I'm always going to be recovering.
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by Rmz250
I guess the biggest problem I have with AA is that I'm always going to be recovering.
And as you say, AA has worked for a lot of people, and has saved a lot of lives. The program deserves our utmost respect for helping all those people, and for saving all those lives. I really hope that those who have been nurtured back to health by AA don't perceive our thoughts and experience of AA to be a statement of belief that it is ineffective for all.
But there exists no single method that works for everybody. Each of us has particular world views, particular ways of perceiving and reasoning, different conceptual structures which determine our manner of engagement with our subjective experience of the world.
What Rmz250 has expressed is what kept me also out of the program. I didn't want the stain or residue of my addiction to bind me to regular meetings for the rest of my life. I didn't want the bars of my prison merely to be rendered invisible through abstinence; I wanted there to be no bars. I wanted them gone. I wanted them annihilated. And now they are.
Rmz250 - I would strongly recommend you read Alan Carr's "The Easy Way to Stop Drinking." And if you haven't already, you perhaps might also look into mindfulness teaching, and neuroplasticity. Jeffrey M. Schwartz has an excellent book ("You Are Not Your Brain") on how to utilize mindfulness in order to re-wire your brain (this is what is meant by neuroplasticity).
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 66
Thank you for that reply, it was worded well and reflects how I feel. I do have respect for AA and the fact that it's helped many people. I apologise if I come across as AA bashing, it's just that AA was pushed onto me as the only way to recover and that if I didn't follow its path I would relapse. This has instilled fear in me and I have felt more like a prisoner in AA then in active addiction. I feel it irresponsible to offer only one solution to addiction and to predict failure unless you adhere to that path. I'm aware that not all fellowship members are like that and I really appreciate those who have tried to sell me on 12 steps but also suggest I find what works for me.
I too want to be free from addiction. That to me means no longer having a desire to drink as well as being able to socialise with whoever I chose and not feel like I'm different. If staying sober means I need to go to meetings or follow some ritual than to me that's not freedom.
I have read Alan Carr and his view on addiction is very helpful. I also find rational recovery myself views helpful. They don't help with a solution to my beliefs about myself but I think they are closer to the mark on there view of addiction. I know of neuroplasicity and it makes a lot of sense to me. It also gives me hope that I can not only arrest my addiction but be free of it.
I will give that book a read, it sounds interesting.
I too want to be free from addiction. That to me means no longer having a desire to drink as well as being able to socialise with whoever I chose and not feel like I'm different. If staying sober means I need to go to meetings or follow some ritual than to me that's not freedom.
I have read Alan Carr and his view on addiction is very helpful. I also find rational recovery myself views helpful. They don't help with a solution to my beliefs about myself but I think they are closer to the mark on there view of addiction. I know of neuroplasicity and it makes a lot of sense to me. It also gives me hope that I can not only arrest my addiction but be free of it.
I will give that book a read, it sounds interesting.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: De
Posts: 1,333
Ive been doing this AA thing for 38 years now. Like anything else in life, AA is what I make it to be. If all I do is show up, then of course its going to suck eventually. I had to get involved. That meant service work. I have never once felt disillusioned with AA after leaving a service commitment meeting at prison, rehab, or detox. The same with going on a 12 Step call. It always gives an extra shot of gratitude.
The same thing with group service. I started with cleaning ash trays(back in the 70's), worked my way up to setting up and making coffee, and cleaning up. I also became an Intergroup rep, then later a GSR, and then served several offices in Intergroup. Yup, the same old people saying the same old thing, but its part of carrying the message.
More important, I started fixing me outside of the Fellowship. My first goal was to improve my education resume. That meant getting a GED, then college courses, then, full time college. the career, family, and living life.
I'm also involved in my community. Serving from the local civic association, serving on boards of local organizations, PTA and involved in schools for the kids, and keeping in contact with politics.
Life is what you make it. It doesn't matter what organization it is. If I'm just going to show up and expect to get results, I'm are going to be disappointed. I must get INVOLVED.
The same thing with group service. I started with cleaning ash trays(back in the 70's), worked my way up to setting up and making coffee, and cleaning up. I also became an Intergroup rep, then later a GSR, and then served several offices in Intergroup. Yup, the same old people saying the same old thing, but its part of carrying the message.
More important, I started fixing me outside of the Fellowship. My first goal was to improve my education resume. That meant getting a GED, then college courses, then, full time college. the career, family, and living life.
I'm also involved in my community. Serving from the local civic association, serving on boards of local organizations, PTA and involved in schools for the kids, and keeping in contact with politics.
Life is what you make it. It doesn't matter what organization it is. If I'm just going to show up and expect to get results, I'm are going to be disappointed. I must get INVOLVED.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
I guess the biggest problem I have with AA is that I'm always going to be recovering.
Rmz,
if you were to read the foreword to the first edition of the BB, which is included in every subsequent edition, you'd see this: "To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book".
if you're going to be always recovering, you've missed something.
... I'm convinced I can think my way out of my problems. It hasn't worked for me so far
yes; i, too, was very much convinced of that. despite all evidence to the contrary. it's an interesting phenomenon, yes?
it doesn't work and doesn't work yet we keep insisting it will.
in the end, a real thorough honest look at my own experience prooved more persuasive
Rmz,
if you were to read the foreword to the first edition of the BB, which is included in every subsequent edition, you'd see this: "To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book".
if you're going to be always recovering, you've missed something.
... I'm convinced I can think my way out of my problems. It hasn't worked for me so far
yes; i, too, was very much convinced of that. despite all evidence to the contrary. it's an interesting phenomenon, yes?
it doesn't work and doesn't work yet we keep insisting it will.
in the end, a real thorough honest look at my own experience prooved more persuasive
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 66
I know that I need to put In action, that I won't get better without putting in the work. I have gotten involved in AA. I've been going on and off for 15 years. I try and I find it helpful interacting with people. The problem is I can't carry a message I don't believe in. I don't believe addiction is a disease. I believe it is learnt behaviour stemming from abusing substances as a way of coping with adolescent trauma. (At least in my case). I don't believe in a higher power personal to me. I see AA as a religion. I believe and have done a lot of research into this and believe that AA's beliefs can actually be damaging and harmful to some individuals ( not everyone is the same and fits AA's cookie cutter approach). After initially being indoctrinated into AA my life spiralled more out of control and I tried to end my life. Many people take their own life in recovery and I'm sure there's many reasons why. For me my attempt was a direct result of AA.
I think it's great that it's works for so many and I wish it would work for me, believe me, I have tried. Even if it did work for me I couldn't endorse something that could potentially cause others harm. At the end of the day I might have personal experience in addiction but I'm not a therapist and in recovery you are sometimes dealing with people who have all kinds of emotional issues.
I think it's great that it's works for so many and I wish it would work for me, believe me, I have tried. Even if it did work for me I couldn't endorse something that could potentially cause others harm. At the end of the day I might have personal experience in addiction but I'm not a therapist and in recovery you are sometimes dealing with people who have all kinds of emotional issues.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 414
Hi - Thank you for sharing that. It took courage. AA IS a truly wonderful program for many indeed. Yet, your experience with it, is very similar to my own. I suffer from severe depression. Recently I was in a 30 days residential woman's program. It has turned out to be the greatest gift I have ever received. No more benzos and alcohol in my system for over 30 days. The program doctor put me on a low dose of an antidepressant to help with sleep. Also I have been eating very healthy, practicing yoga again and have added meditation to my world. Am going back to work today. I am rejoicing that I even have a job to return to! Yes life is hard. The old stuff is still there. But I also attend, once a week, a wonderful womens support group that is not AA driven, although some are following the AA program. One, a 30 year AA lady, has let me know that what ever works for me is what matters. Stay the course.
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by fini
. . . ... I'm convinced I can think my way out of my problems. It hasn't worked for me so far
yes; i, too, was very much convinced of that. despite all evidence to the contrary. it's an interesting phenomenon, yes?
it doesn't work and doesn't work yet we keep insisting it will
yes; i, too, was very much convinced of that. despite all evidence to the contrary. it's an interesting phenomenon, yes?
it doesn't work and doesn't work yet we keep insisting it will
Please don't proclaim the impossibility of an experience on the sole basis of never having had that experience.
"despite all evidence to the contrary" - you say?
Well, I've thought my way out of several addictions. How's that for evidence?
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Originally Posted by PaulDaveSmithJo
We should not use such harmful absolute statements. Such statements could be causing a lot of harm to others whose approach differs from your own. You could be undermining the endeavours of others in their struggles.
Please don't proclaim the impossibility of an experience on the sole basis of never having had that experience.
"despite all evidence to the contrary" - you say?
Well, I've thought my way out of several addictions. How's that for evidence?
Please don't proclaim the impossibility of an experience on the sole basis of never having had that experience.
"despite all evidence to the contrary" - you say?
Well, I've thought my way out of several addictions. How's that for evidence?
only speaking of that.
i'm happy for you about having been able to think your way out of several addictions.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 66
[QUOTE = Rmz250 - I would strongly recommend you read Alan Carr's "The Easy Way to Stop Drinking." And if you haven't already, you perhaps might also look into mindfulness teaching, and neuroplasticity. Jeffrey M. Schwartz has an excellent book ("You Are Not Your Brain") on how to utilize mindfulness in order to re-wire your brain (this is what is meant by neuroplasticity).[/QUOTE]
Just want to add that I have purchased this book and am busy reading it. It is fascinating, makes complete sense to me based on my experience and is based on scientific research. Thank you for
bringing it to my attention.
Just want to add that I have purchased this book and am busy reading it. It is fascinating, makes complete sense to me based on my experience and is based on scientific research. Thank you for
bringing it to my attention.
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by Rmz250
Just want to add that I have purchased this book and am busy reading it. It is fascinating, makes complete sense to me based on my experience and is based on scientific research. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
There are a few other books I've read that approach the matter from an evidence-based, scientific model:
On the chemistry and biology of addiction:
Mark Lewis, The Biology of Desire: Why Addiction Is Not a Disease
Markus Heilig, The Thirteenth Step: Addiction in the Age of Brain Science
Gene M. Heyman, Addiction: A Disorder of Choice
Gabor Mate, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts (not entirely focused on the science of the issue, but helpful nonetheless)
On neuroplasticity:
Jeffrey M. Schwartz, The Mind and the Brain
Norman Doidge, The Brain That Changes Itself
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
