Redmayne

Thanks for to all those who've contributed, in a constructive manner, to my thread...really great!

To those who for whatever reason, haven't, there's plenty of other forums, so you can always look elsewhere...

I must admit I've found at the core of survival, mine or anyone else's, as many will testify going back years. That the principles and practices of Stoic philosophy, which should be fully understood before embarking on, for like Buddhism, it is often not what it seems, in its presentation of itself, what it seems.

A bit like the book,'Alcoholics Anonymous'...if you don't read and fully understand it, in recovery, you might find yourself struggling.

An example of which is as Marcus Aurelius, in his self reflective book,'Meditations' in the metaphorical sense, suggests,

'Be like the headland on which the waves continually crash: it stands firm and gather the waters around it to rest.'

Anyone interested in it, I'd recommend Patrick Usher's bok,'Stoicism Today: Selected Writings' as a good place to start...

silentrun

I am self aware. That is as close as I will probably ever get on that one. That is huge because at one point in my life I was just plain old delusional. I have learned that my bias are huge at influencing my experience so they have probably played hell on the accuracy of my memories. Everything is subject to revision as more information comes in. I will just keep on adjusting my lens.

Boleo

I researched "self reliance" for decades and it only reinforced my drinking. Since one of the subjects of this thread is survival of the fittest when it comes to alcoholism, my research has convinced me that Western philosophy, logic, reason and self help are all counter productive when it comes to long term sobriety.

Myself, I am in this recovery business for the long run. Pretty good recovery is not reliable enough for me. I am also in a position where one more relapse will definitely kill me. So even second best recovery looks dangerous to me. That's why I drive over an hour to attend meetings where reputable good-old-timers are known to hang out. Some of them have even accused me of stalking them (not far from the truth). While they don't all agree on everything, they all do agree on one thing... "Self reliance" is the least reliable way to stay sober.

Caveat emptor

dwtbd

So your experience of a very limited pool of individuals is enough to lead to a universal truth?

silentrun

Did you try google?
Edit: It does seem like you are trusting your assessment more than anything that would contradict it. That could be said to be a form of self reliance.

Boleo

I now only trust Eastern philosophy, existentialism and spiritual based recovery, simply because I don't ever want to be "self reliant" ever again. That would be a HUGE step backwards for a alcoholic of my type (beyond human aid).

silentrun

You decided who to trust. See what I am saying? It all comes back to you...it always does.

MesaMan

I might post some Thoughts later, since I'm busy now with other stuff.

This Reference linked below should do for now; what with 10,000 imaginary Drunks alluded to in this Thread...

Fallacious 'Bandwagon' Argument
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Boleo

My "limited" pool of individuals consists mostly of reputable good-old-timers with 30+ years of first hand experience under their belt. Whether you want to call that "Universal" truth is a matter of personal opinion.

The one thing I never trust is those giving opinions about an experience which they have not yet had.

Boleo

First of all... It was not a decision that I exactly wanted to make. I was about to win a Darwin Award and had to make a "Life or Death" decision (the subject of this thread).

Second, I alone did not make the decision. I had lots of help. I submitted to the directions of others with far more experience than I.

Third, when I hear someone say "Rely on yourself", it reminds me of all of the red herrings that crossed my path while I was still searching.

silentrun

I don't see it as a distractor. I see all the follow me as a distractor. Then again I would given my experiences.

Boleo

I used to think the same way. Until "EXPERIENCE" taught me otherwise.

Redmayne

One thing I can say of myself, in recovery, which in turn I'd hope applies to us all, is that I'm safe, sane and sober. Which, no matter 'which drum you march to the beat of' is all that matters ...

Regrettably and all to obviously, there are those who aren't, to whom all I can offer is my compassion, tolerance and patience...adding 'fierce compassion' , see the Tibetan, 'Book of the Dead' to those, who by their actions or behaviour, disturb me.

Other than that I'll leave you to sort it out amongst yourselves.

OBTW, my initial suggestions that 1.you should rely on yourself and 2.that anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned, were both taken from Buddhist philosophy, odd that until now, no one mentioned it...with all the references to various beliefs, philosophies, religions, etc...after all, they're quite common?

Although the two that 'hit the spot' for me are taken from Sun Tzu's famous book,'The Art of War',which is about life itself really, are,

1. 'You must control events,otherwise events will control you.'

2. 'If you stand by a river long enough, sooner or later you will see the dead bodies of your enemies float by.'

Then again, he did live in violent times....

Boleo

Actually, post # 6 addressed that specifically:

"The Kālāma Sutta is a discourse of the Buddha contained in the Aṅguttara Nikaya of the Tipiṭaka.[1] It is often cited by those of the Theravada and Mahayana traditions alike as the Buddha's "charter of free inquiry."[2]

The Kālāma Sutta is also used for advocating prudence by the use of sound logical reasoning arguments and the dialectic principles for inquiries in the practice that relates to the discipline of seeking truth, wisdom and knowledge whether it is religious or not. In short, the Kālāma Sutta is opposed to blind faith, dogmatism and belief spawned from specious reasoning."

Kalama Sutta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MesaMan

Silentrun ~

To answer your question to me in Post #39, I just got back from some Solo Camping w/Da Pooch around Moab Utah. Absorbing the vastness of ~300 Million year-old Geology 'calibrates' me. The Formation I posted my Pic of is called - wait for it - 'Balanced Rock'-). See it ~1/3rd of the way down this Webpage. Me, I'd classify my encounter with this fabulous Ancient Seabed Formation as 'Synchronicity'.

Arches National Park Overview

A Geology/Processes Overview is here at Wiki:

Arches National Park Geology - Wiki

Respecting Logic and my own Experience has served me very well. It led me to SR a few months after I'd already quit Drinking forever, and allowed me to frame my experience as aligned with AVRT, and the Slides I later read on line. There's more Folks here and accessible than could ever fit in any Basement, and it's available 24/7. Anonymity promotes sincerity, IMO. I don't advocate 'going it alone', and so I didn't. 'Willpower' is an inaccurate Label often thrown about to marginalize 'Conviction'. As we all know, quitting takes Conviction. The preferred Method follows from that.

When this Asthmatic Tyke complained about the Smoke from my Dad's very-addicting 'Cancer Stick' Lucky Strike Cigs he got hooked on in WW II, he threw the Pack out the Car Window and never smoked again. My good Pal/former Boss quit Cigs on the First 'Great American Smokeout Day' several Decades ago. Another Pal quit Pot 'just like that' a few years back when he experienced a racing Pulse above Timberline at >11,000'. Folks quit this-or-that for Millennia. That's what suits some of us who are Genetically wired to 'throw it down', and take Direct Action when we feel it appropriate. I hang with 'Masters' experienced at doing this. My Pals and Mentors 'Walk The Walk'. Whatever small or large increment of the Recovery Population Bell Curve we represent doesn't concern me one iota. If I don't care for McDonald's Hamburgers, I don't care how many millions like them. That doesn't make them 'The Best'. It only makes them popular. I didn't choose a Recovery Process/Path based on such 'McDonald's' popularity 'Logic'. I opted for a compatible one I knew would cause me to succeed. To me, that is 'Logic'.

What I find repeatedly is that the Independently-Recovered are out there in the World. I encounter them weekly. They're living Sobriety; not talking/lecturing about how to achieve it. That's how Wise People behave, IMO. We swap now-Sober experiences as Peers at the Dog Park, and at Parties. Repeated success at Self Reliance leads to - ta da - more Self Reliant success. That inherently embraces knowing when to ask others [i.e., when I can't figure out something myself].

So long as we all find our individual Path. See my Signature Line.

Thanks to Redmayne for starting this Thread.
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