The essence of recovery ...
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
The essence of recovery ...
Obviously at this time of year, despite the efforts of the gods of commerce and the 'meeja' (media), many people, of all religions, faiths, denominations etc. are turning their attention to celebrating the birth of Christ, and rightly so.
In recovery many others, including myself can celebrate the birth of ourselves. When perhaps, metaphorically speaking, taking a verse from an ancient teacher, Shido Bunan Zenji, first seen by me in Soko Morinaga's famous book, 'Novice to Master ' to,
'Die while alive,
Thoroughly die,
Then just do as you will,
and all is right.'
Which to me, whatever program, if any you chose to follow in seeking recovery, is the essence of recovery. One of the benefits of which, compared to the events referred to in the opening paragraph of this thread being that neither you, nor anyone else for that matter needs to wait for Christmas to do it!
Neither do you need any special qualifications to do this, let's face it, being an alcoholic or addict doesn't really qualify you for anything. That said from quite lengthy and prolonged experience.
Nor do you need any special training or environment, like the illness/disease of alcoholism, there's nothing unique or selective about it, it's available to all!
Together with perhaps the most important thing, it doesn't cost you anything by way of health,finances,emotions etc., but it will and does allow both yourself and others to look upon yourself in a new more positive and productive light.
Neither alcohol nor drugs offered me nor anyone the opportunity to do that, ever!
On which basis, I'd suggest whatever stage of recovery you're at, or even if just thinking about it, it's well worth considering the idea of your own death applied in this manner, than the mental and physical death or insanity that is the end product of those who suffer from alcohol or drug abuse, without ever even getting into recovery, most of whom wishing the former comes first.
After all a birth at any time of year, and in whatever form it takes, is to be celebrated!
In recovery many others, including myself can celebrate the birth of ourselves. When perhaps, metaphorically speaking, taking a verse from an ancient teacher, Shido Bunan Zenji, first seen by me in Soko Morinaga's famous book, 'Novice to Master ' to,
'Die while alive,
Thoroughly die,
Then just do as you will,
and all is right.'
Which to me, whatever program, if any you chose to follow in seeking recovery, is the essence of recovery. One of the benefits of which, compared to the events referred to in the opening paragraph of this thread being that neither you, nor anyone else for that matter needs to wait for Christmas to do it!
Neither do you need any special qualifications to do this, let's face it, being an alcoholic or addict doesn't really qualify you for anything. That said from quite lengthy and prolonged experience.
Nor do you need any special training or environment, like the illness/disease of alcoholism, there's nothing unique or selective about it, it's available to all!
Together with perhaps the most important thing, it doesn't cost you anything by way of health,finances,emotions etc., but it will and does allow both yourself and others to look upon yourself in a new more positive and productive light.
Neither alcohol nor drugs offered me nor anyone the opportunity to do that, ever!
On which basis, I'd suggest whatever stage of recovery you're at, or even if just thinking about it, it's well worth considering the idea of your own death applied in this manner, than the mental and physical death or insanity that is the end product of those who suffer from alcohol or drug abuse, without ever even getting into recovery, most of whom wishing the former comes first.
After all a birth at any time of year, and in whatever form it takes, is to be celebrated!
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Neither do you need any special qualifications to do this, let's face it, being an alcoholic or addict doesn't really qualify you for anything. That said from quite lengthy and prolonged experience.
Nor do you need any special training or environment, like the illness/disease of alcoholism, there's nothing unique or selective about it, it's available to all!
Nor do you need any special training or environment, like the illness/disease of alcoholism, there's nothing unique or selective about it, it's available to all!
William James said that all spiritual experience has at least 3 phases in common;
1. Calamity
2. Surrender
3. Appeal
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
If you're going to be ...
To Boleo, if together with William James, you're going to be objective, analytically and offer comment from an academic, sober frame of mind, your observations, notably on only one part of my thread, it's easy to pick and choose, if you're going to criticise anyone or anything, have certain merit.
However, certainly speaking from, by way of personal experience with which I've no doubt, others suffering a similar fate would agree together with the fact that it's widely known that alcoholics live in a delusional state of mind whilst drinking. Which I think we'd all agree is the very essence of the disease/illness, otherwise we wouldn't get into recovery? I doubt that anyone in an acknowledged delusional state of mind could be seen to do any of this.
Which was the whole point of the thread and actually getting into recovery in a response to the title of this forum.
Miss that, on this or any forum raises questions as to your own or anyone else who acts in a similar manner, credibility.
Anyone can be wise after the event and quote other authorative figures or works, but knowledge and the observations it generates can, at its best only really come from personal experience, and you can't buy or fake that.
Even James in his book, 'Varieties of Religious Experience: In Human Nature' in the chapter on 'Mysticism' agrees with that...
However, certainly speaking from, by way of personal experience with which I've no doubt, others suffering a similar fate would agree together with the fact that it's widely known that alcoholics live in a delusional state of mind whilst drinking. Which I think we'd all agree is the very essence of the disease/illness, otherwise we wouldn't get into recovery? I doubt that anyone in an acknowledged delusional state of mind could be seen to do any of this.
Which was the whole point of the thread and actually getting into recovery in a response to the title of this forum.
Miss that, on this or any forum raises questions as to your own or anyone else who acts in a similar manner, credibility.
Anyone can be wise after the event and quote other authorative figures or works, but knowledge and the observations it generates can, at its best only really come from personal experience, and you can't buy or fake that.
Even James in his book, 'Varieties of Religious Experience: In Human Nature' in the chapter on 'Mysticism' agrees with that...
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Redmayne 
To Boleo, if together with William James, you're going to be objective, analytically and offer comment from an academic, sober frame of mind, your observations, notably on only one part of my thread, it's easy to pick and choose, if you're going to criticise anyone or anything, have certain merit.
However, certainly speaking from, by way of personal experience with which I've no doubt, others suffering a similar fate would agree together with the fact that it's widely known that alcoholics live in a delusional state of mind whilst drinking. Which I think we'd all agree is the very essence of the disease/illness, otherwise we wouldn't get into recovery? I doubt that anyone in an acknowledged delusional state of mind could be seen to do any of this.
However, certainly speaking from, by way of personal experience with which I've no doubt, others suffering a similar fate would agree together with the fact that it's widely known that alcoholics live in a delusional state of mind whilst drinking. Which I think we'd all agree is the very essence of the disease/illness, otherwise we wouldn't get into recovery? I doubt that anyone in an acknowledged delusional state of mind could be seen to do any of this.
I thought that it was important to point out to all new to the spiritual path that without the initial struggle phase of evolution there is no progress. You yourself went through something like a "Dark Night of the Soul Experience" just before your spiritual awakening. I am surprised that you don't see the importance of that event.
All alcoholics may be delusional about the root cause of their predicament, but I have yet to meet an alcoholic who did not go through a struggle to get to where they realized that they needed to surrender at least a portion of their old ways and thinking before they could make some progress.
To tell alcoholics or addicts that they don't need to experience anything negative, do anything uncomfortable or surrender any part of their thinking might just be the most temporized recovery messages that I have ever heard.
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,359
Merry Christmas Red. You might be napping right now from that Christmas breakfast and getting worn out by the grandson.
Doesn't it go without saying that in order to abandon old thinking there has to be some type of pain or struggle? I broke through the delusion of that what I was doing was somehow OK in a nanosecond. There was no pain in that it was more fear. Getting rid of the worldview was something else entirely. I found myself constantly angry and defensive. What the hell was I protecting anyway? The pain of that was great enough to make me look for another way.
I get from Red that you do not have to be anybody special to do it. It is within all of us and it is the most natural thing to do. I certainly am not educated and haven't gone beyond reading a few koans here and there. I still can't focus long enough to read a chapter let alone a whole book and get some info into my head. I am learning from other people. Some serve as a mirror to my dark side and then there are the healers. There is a mixture of both on SR and they all have helped me.
Doesn't it go without saying that in order to abandon old thinking there has to be some type of pain or struggle? I broke through the delusion of that what I was doing was somehow OK in a nanosecond. There was no pain in that it was more fear. Getting rid of the worldview was something else entirely. I found myself constantly angry and defensive. What the hell was I protecting anyway? The pain of that was great enough to make me look for another way.
I get from Red that you do not have to be anybody special to do it. It is within all of us and it is the most natural thing to do. I certainly am not educated and haven't gone beyond reading a few koans here and there. I still can't focus long enough to read a chapter let alone a whole book and get some info into my head. I am learning from other people. Some serve as a mirror to my dark side and then there are the healers. There is a mixture of both on SR and they all have helped me.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Thank you...
Thank you for your excellent response to my thread, to think it necessary to tell alcoholics that it's necessary or even worse analyze the fact that to go through pain and suffering in order to effect their recovery on spiritual or other lines is to say the least a bit like stating the obvious.
Even more so when done by someone who without providing any empirical proof, the cornerstone of any acknowledged theory, scientific or spiritual, when done so in a self absorbed, self serving manner in a misguided attempt to support their own sense of academic or moral superiority. Fails itself simply in it's lack of authenticity and credibility in the person offering it.
Not least, as everyone knows and any god psychologist will tell you, the answers always, as I have found from personal experience,the answers always lie in yourself.
This applies especially in recovery, as like learning to be spiritual, no one can do it for you. A fact not a theory, that is acknowledged by all recovered alcoholics. I've yet to meet one who has told me that someone else recovered for them or became spiritual on their behalf, that's just plain nonsense and we, with the odd exception, know it.
Those that don't tend to be to self absorbed into their own version of academic theory, on any subject, real or imagined which often has little to do with reality, not least in terms of helping others, and everything to do with their view of their own self importance.
Which again, in reality amounts to nothing and belies any credibility, real or imagined in anything they have to offer, personally or professionally.
Like anything in life, you have to have been there to know what you're talking about, anything less, is just conjecture based on others experiences.
Even more so when done by someone who without providing any empirical proof, the cornerstone of any acknowledged theory, scientific or spiritual, when done so in a self absorbed, self serving manner in a misguided attempt to support their own sense of academic or moral superiority. Fails itself simply in it's lack of authenticity and credibility in the person offering it.
Not least, as everyone knows and any god psychologist will tell you, the answers always, as I have found from personal experience,the answers always lie in yourself.
This applies especially in recovery, as like learning to be spiritual, no one can do it for you. A fact not a theory, that is acknowledged by all recovered alcoholics. I've yet to meet one who has told me that someone else recovered for them or became spiritual on their behalf, that's just plain nonsense and we, with the odd exception, know it.
Those that don't tend to be to self absorbed into their own version of academic theory, on any subject, real or imagined which often has little to do with reality, not least in terms of helping others, and everything to do with their view of their own self importance.
Which again, in reality amounts to nothing and belies any credibility, real or imagined in anything they have to offer, personally or professionally.
Like anything in life, you have to have been there to know what you're talking about, anything less, is just conjecture based on others experiences.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Addendum.
Addendum.
Which often, for those who dwell in conjecture, often ends up a bit like stating the obvious...
As for spirituality of which it's generally accepted can be taught but only learned through experiential learning and 'psychic or spiritual experiences' what happens to those who do, as I did, in effecting my recovery, on their own. Without the benefit of any academic philosophy or theory whether by William James or otherwise.
At the time I was, after 30 years only to well aware of the pain and suffering my inherent alcohol caused me without seeking without having to read about it in books or hear it from the lips of others?
Which often, for those who dwell in conjecture, often ends up a bit like stating the obvious...
As for spirituality of which it's generally accepted can be taught but only learned through experiential learning and 'psychic or spiritual experiences' what happens to those who do, as I did, in effecting my recovery, on their own. Without the benefit of any academic philosophy or theory whether by William James or otherwise.
At the time I was, after 30 years only to well aware of the pain and suffering my inherent alcohol caused me without seeking without having to read about it in books or hear it from the lips of others?
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Like anything in life, you have to have been there to know what you're talking about, anything less, is just conjecture based on others experiences.
My experience is not derived from books and discourse, but rather it is backed up by academic learning. I do my homework before I open my mouth.
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
One interesting interpretation of the story of Jesus, is that it symbolises the pain we will go through to rise again.
Metaphorically speaking....
The much maligned public figure that he was, the way the Romans and Pharisees treated him, the betrayal by Judas, the flogging, torture and death by crucifixion all symbolic of what those who seek the spiritual path will encounter.
It's all in the beatitudes JC left us.
Metaphorically speaking....
The much maligned public figure that he was, the way the Romans and Pharisees treated him, the betrayal by Judas, the flogging, torture and death by crucifixion all symbolic of what those who seek the spiritual path will encounter.
It's all in the beatitudes JC left us.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Excellent ...
Excellent... your reference to the life of Christ,'The Prince of Peace' is very good, as it probably gives rise to the widely held belief that those who suffer the most pain often become the most spiritual...
Whilst at the same time I often think you should be grateful to those people who disturb you, as they make you chose exactly the person you don't want to be.
Thank you for this ...
Whilst at the same time I often think you should be grateful to those people who disturb you, as they make you chose exactly the person you don't want to be.
Thank you for this ...
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Hawks
It's all in the beatitudes JC left us.
Blessed are...
....the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
....those who mourn: for they will be comforted.
....the meek: for they will inherit the earth.
....those who hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they will be filled.
....the merciful: for they will be shown mercy.
....the pure in heart: for they will see God.
....the peacemakers: for they will be called children of God.
....those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
(Matt 5:3-5:10)
Certainly alcoholics are poor in spirit. At least at their lowest point.
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
Emmet Fox interpreted "poor in spirit" to mean low self will... Unspirited in our own right, but rather wanting the spirit of God.
I think this is pretty spot on in the case of alcoholic folk, self will run riot gets us into AA as does our pseudo spiritual experiences with alcohol.
It temporarily fills the God hole, allowing us to function in the world,before, as Bill put it, turning like a boomerang in flight and cutting us to ribbons.
As Carl Jung advised, the useful equation therefore is.... "spiritus contra spiritum "
I think this is pretty spot on in the case of alcoholic folk, self will run riot gets us into AA as does our pseudo spiritual experiences with alcohol.
It temporarily fills the God hole, allowing us to function in the world,before, as Bill put it, turning like a boomerang in flight and cutting us to ribbons.
As Carl Jung advised, the useful equation therefore is.... "spiritus contra spiritum "
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by Boleo
Not in my experience. The first qualification for any and all spiritual growth is some kind of calamity or struggle. The spiritual growth is the direct result of a struggle/surrender struggle 100% of the time. My analogy to this cycle is that of a baseball player going up to bat. He gets no credit for touching home plate until after struggling to touch all the bases first.
William James said that all spiritual experience has at least 3 phases in common;
1. Calamity
2. Surrender
3. Appeal
William James said that all spiritual experience has at least 3 phases in common;
1. Calamity
2. Surrender
3. Appeal
if i never lost my kids, my home, my family, my money, i wouldn't have the grateful feeling i have today since i got them all back again
i had to lose it all in order to win that much is true, i see a lot of people who have so much in life yet there so unhappy with life as there not grateful in there heart for what they really have
i have had to work on being grateful again in me and its on going as i can lose myself in the death of my son and start to spit out venom which solves nothing
if my heart is troubled then i dont have a good day, what i have had to learn is how to try to have a good day even with a troubled heart
the only way out for me is other people who are worse off than me, it soon brings home how lucky i am to have what i do have rather than looking at what i dont have and the misery that it brings
that is my way of spiritual growth and its always on going dependent on what i actually do about it
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
I've enjoyed ...
I must say I've enjoyed the posts supplied in response to my original thread, as they btend to confirm the widely held belief that who you are, is reflected in your state of mind.
It also provides both top those who've contributed thus far, with particular relevance to both this site and forum, the opportunity for them and other interested parties to in whole or part, judge the quality of their recovery.
An interesting all round exercise, I look forward to further contributions ...
It also provides both top those who've contributed thus far, with particular relevance to both this site and forum, the opportunity for them and other interested parties to in whole or part, judge the quality of their recovery.
An interesting all round exercise, I look forward to further contributions ...
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
I totally get what Boleo is talking about. "Dark Night Of The Soul" experiences seem quite common in most of the spiritual literature, just not that widely talked about. Here's a link to a bunch of videos on the topic, some better than others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xjc...h5xu2N&index=1. Here's the old movie Dark Night Of The Soul, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI896NMRfuA
It seems that these experiences aren't necessary to have a spiritual awakening but they are quite common regardless of your belief system. It is said by many of the speakers that some people will drop their faith, practice or whatever when they have such an experience.
It seems that these experiences aren't necessary to have a spiritual awakening but they are quite common regardless of your belief system. It is said by many of the speakers that some people will drop their faith, practice or whatever when they have such an experience.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
It is said by many of the speakers that some people will drop their faith, practice or whatever when they have such an experience.
"The main purpose of religion is to prevent it's followers from having direct contact with God".
(Carl Jung)
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