Principles before personalities.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Principles before personalities.
'Once I served humanity and the thought of that pleased me. Then I realised that humanity doesn't want this,in fact it consciously rejects it.....So now I do what pleases....' learned from a woman who was more of an acquaintance than a friend.
In my recovery I learned the value of this, in my case by applying the principles offered in the suggested 12 Sep program of recovery outlined in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' in a thorough manner.
At the same time, accepting that others are free to pursue any other course of action that leads to recovery hopefully followed by a prolonged period of sobriety, in a manner that pleases them.
Without, allowing personalities, other than those who provide experience, strength and hope, perhaps by way of constructive comment or criticism to in any way hinder or obstruct their or another's goal.
Thereby interfering with anothers recovery, and perhaps even more importantly, their own.
Given the basic principle of recovery advanced by A A is 'one drunk talking to another' .... without any reference to personalities, allowing them to do what pleases ....
Completely detached from any idea of gaining status, popularity or even serving or being liked by others or humanity itself.
As much as we all like to be 'patted and stroked', I learned the important fact that in recovery. There is no room for ego, either yours or mine and that principles must always come before personalities, including mine...
In my recovery I learned the value of this, in my case by applying the principles offered in the suggested 12 Sep program of recovery outlined in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' in a thorough manner.
At the same time, accepting that others are free to pursue any other course of action that leads to recovery hopefully followed by a prolonged period of sobriety, in a manner that pleases them.
Without, allowing personalities, other than those who provide experience, strength and hope, perhaps by way of constructive comment or criticism to in any way hinder or obstruct their or another's goal.
Thereby interfering with anothers recovery, and perhaps even more importantly, their own.
Given the basic principle of recovery advanced by A A is 'one drunk talking to another' .... without any reference to personalities, allowing them to do what pleases ....
Completely detached from any idea of gaining status, popularity or even serving or being liked by others or humanity itself.
As much as we all like to be 'patted and stroked', I learned the important fact that in recovery. There is no room for ego, either yours or mine and that principles must always come before personalities, including mine...
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Berwick
Posts: 128
Tradition 12 simply relates to Anonymity.
Designed as I understand it, to stop any AA member from breaking anonymity and throwing himself into the public arena and attempting to bring the message to the masses.
Which if I recall correctly was a hard learnt lesson by AA when one member ran far ahead of himself and AA as a whole and attempted to do just that.
If that is a photo of yourself there in your avatar, you might want to have a think on that
Designed as I understand it, to stop any AA member from breaking anonymity and throwing himself into the public arena and attempting to bring the message to the masses.
Which if I recall correctly was a hard learnt lesson by AA when one member ran far ahead of himself and AA as a whole and attempted to do just that.
If that is a photo of yourself there in your avatar, you might want to have a think on that
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Why ?
Why are you putting my personality, including my pic, when there are plenty of pics of noted recovering alcoholics, including ' one of the most noted and venerated AA speakers 'Clancy' on the internet, before your principles by responding to my thread like this? Ego?
My user name is 'Redmayne' my pic is of me, but it doesn't in anyway reveal my identity, you might want to think about that?
My user name is 'Redmayne' my pic is of me, but it doesn't in anyway reveal my identity, you might want to think about that?
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
No apology needed...
No apology needed,I'm always open to constructive comment and criticism, after all what's a forum for?
Although I have to say in my experience,not infallible but they're mine and no one else's.
In twenty years of attending A A meetings in the area in which I live. I never saw either myself nor anyone else wearing a bag, skimask or any other item of apparel over their heads or faces to hide their identity. Whether they were Open or Closed meetings, so your reference to my pic is lost on me...sorry. Others are free to use avatars as they choose, with which I take no issue. 'Live and let live' right?
Secondly the reasons I stopped going to A A meetings were twofold, firstly because at most of them if they didn't say the A A Preamble at the start of the meeting, you wouldn't have even known you were at an A A meeting.
Also when it became apparent to me that again most of those others attending problems had nothing to do with alcohol or alcoholism, evenless in recovery or sobriety but everything to do with them and their lives and the problems accrued in them.
Making the point that, as far as they were concerned A A meetings were all about people and not the principles advocated in the A A literature, i.e. 'Alcoholics Anonymous' and the '12 x 12'.
Fortunately I came into possession of a set of 10 'burnt off' cd's of a weekends recording of 'Joe and 'Charlie' conducting a 'Big Book Study', at the introduction of which they stressed was nothing to do with the Fellowship of A A.
Although they, like I, still regard it as a fine and worthy organisation, that has in recent years and at various, not all meetings lost it's way and is therefore committing the cardinal sin of failing not only its members, but more importantly, the newcomer. As I once was....
I'll leave it that, as for some time now I've felt my time on here was about done.
Watching Kevin Costner's film on the life and events of Wyatt Earp on tv last night, showed me he was at one time an alcoholic, who recovered and got sober. Without the need for A A, principles or even less anonymitty. although as Walter White said, if you didn't know him, you were advised to tread lightly.
Although I have to say in my experience,not infallible but they're mine and no one else's.
In twenty years of attending A A meetings in the area in which I live. I never saw either myself nor anyone else wearing a bag, skimask or any other item of apparel over their heads or faces to hide their identity. Whether they were Open or Closed meetings, so your reference to my pic is lost on me...sorry. Others are free to use avatars as they choose, with which I take no issue. 'Live and let live' right?
Secondly the reasons I stopped going to A A meetings were twofold, firstly because at most of them if they didn't say the A A Preamble at the start of the meeting, you wouldn't have even known you were at an A A meeting.
Also when it became apparent to me that again most of those others attending problems had nothing to do with alcohol or alcoholism, evenless in recovery or sobriety but everything to do with them and their lives and the problems accrued in them.
Making the point that, as far as they were concerned A A meetings were all about people and not the principles advocated in the A A literature, i.e. 'Alcoholics Anonymous' and the '12 x 12'.
Fortunately I came into possession of a set of 10 'burnt off' cd's of a weekends recording of 'Joe and 'Charlie' conducting a 'Big Book Study', at the introduction of which they stressed was nothing to do with the Fellowship of A A.
Although they, like I, still regard it as a fine and worthy organisation, that has in recent years and at various, not all meetings lost it's way and is therefore committing the cardinal sin of failing not only its members, but more importantly, the newcomer. As I once was....
I'll leave it that, as for some time now I've felt my time on here was about done.
Watching Kevin Costner's film on the life and events of Wyatt Earp on tv last night, showed me he was at one time an alcoholic, who recovered and got sober. Without the need for A A, principles or even less anonymitty. although as Walter White said, if you didn't know him, you were advised to tread lightly.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Quite easily...
Quite easily, using Buddhist philosophy which simply suggests, you should help others, if you can't help others you should at least do them no harm.
No reference to A A or anything like it, albeit it came into existence 1,000 of years before anyone had even thought of A A, etc.
At the end of the day, I got sober for me, it's a selfish program, right. There isn't one thing in A A, other than the book,'Alcoholics Anonymous' particularly ,'The Doctor's Opinion' and the first 164 pages of the 4th Ed., that helped me get sober.
Which might initially seem selfish, but it isn't not when you think that in reality recovery and sobriety is the personal responsibility of any suffering alcoholic.Like eating,no one can do it for you...and whilst I'll always go out of my way to help anyone at any time, as my past history in four professional careers shows. I've no intention of spending my life in some sort of crusade involving 'carrying the message' to others.
Hence the quote,'Once I served humanity and the thought of that pleased me. Then I realised that humanity doesn't want this, in fact it consciously rejects it. So now I do what pleases...'
I take no issue with those who've, shall we say made the Fellowship of A A, their home, in fact I applaud them,altho' personally speaking after20years,I only know one.
But for me, both in my life in general and whilst making spiritual progress, there is a 'bigger picture' that beckons to all of us, which involves recognising and becoming our true selves.Exactly as the God , of at least my understanding, wants us to be...
As a final thought, I got to A A on my own and even when I did, no one physically present carried the message to me.. there's a message, if not for you, but for me, somewhere...
No reference to A A or anything like it, albeit it came into existence 1,000 of years before anyone had even thought of A A, etc.
At the end of the day, I got sober for me, it's a selfish program, right. There isn't one thing in A A, other than the book,'Alcoholics Anonymous' particularly ,'The Doctor's Opinion' and the first 164 pages of the 4th Ed., that helped me get sober.
Which might initially seem selfish, but it isn't not when you think that in reality recovery and sobriety is the personal responsibility of any suffering alcoholic.Like eating,no one can do it for you...and whilst I'll always go out of my way to help anyone at any time, as my past history in four professional careers shows. I've no intention of spending my life in some sort of crusade involving 'carrying the message' to others.
Hence the quote,'Once I served humanity and the thought of that pleased me. Then I realised that humanity doesn't want this, in fact it consciously rejects it. So now I do what pleases...'
I take no issue with those who've, shall we say made the Fellowship of A A, their home, in fact I applaud them,altho' personally speaking after20years,I only know one.
But for me, both in my life in general and whilst making spiritual progress, there is a 'bigger picture' that beckons to all of us, which involves recognising and becoming our true selves.Exactly as the God , of at least my understanding, wants us to be...
As a final thought, I got to A A on my own and even when I did, no one physically present carried the message to me.. there's a message, if not for you, but for me, somewhere...
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Originally Posted by whalebelow2 
So you've dropped out of meetings rather than trieing to carry the message?
Can you reconcile that with step12?
Can you reconcile that with step12?
(o:
NoelleR
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
A selfish program.
For a year after having his 'spiritual or psychic' experience, whilst under the care of Dr. Silkworth in the Towns Hospital in Chicago.
Bill Wilson, one of the eventual co founders of A A, spent his time working with drunks trying to get them sober, with no success.
One night, tired and disappointed he remarked on this to his wife, Lois who with typical female intuition replied, 'But it did work Bill, it kept you sober', pointing out that he hadn't had a drink in over a year.
Which is probably why in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' (4th Ed.) Chapter 7, 'Working With Others' it starts, presumably based on Bill's experience,'Practical experience shows that nothing will so much as insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with others.'
It doesn't say when or for how long this sort of work has to be undertaken, although it does make the point that you can't transmit a message you haven't received. Both these instances make and validate the point that at the end of the day.Having regard to all the circumstances, the suggested 12 Step program of recovery, no matter how well intentioned the behaviour and actions of others, and whether you like it or not, is a selfish program.
Traditions, are simply that, traditions accepted by all, although whether or not any individual wants to follow them or not is a matter for their personal choice, as common practice, they have no authority either by rule or in law.
Suggested further reading, Susan Cheever's (herself in recovery) excellent book,'My name is Bill...' which provides the background not only to Bill W. but the history and development of A A.
Thank you for your time and interest in my post in which at least we can agree to disagree...
Bill Wilson, one of the eventual co founders of A A, spent his time working with drunks trying to get them sober, with no success.
One night, tired and disappointed he remarked on this to his wife, Lois who with typical female intuition replied, 'But it did work Bill, it kept you sober', pointing out that he hadn't had a drink in over a year.
Which is probably why in the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' (4th Ed.) Chapter 7, 'Working With Others' it starts, presumably based on Bill's experience,'Practical experience shows that nothing will so much as insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with others.'
It doesn't say when or for how long this sort of work has to be undertaken, although it does make the point that you can't transmit a message you haven't received. Both these instances make and validate the point that at the end of the day.Having regard to all the circumstances, the suggested 12 Step program of recovery, no matter how well intentioned the behaviour and actions of others, and whether you like it or not, is a selfish program.
Traditions, are simply that, traditions accepted by all, although whether or not any individual wants to follow them or not is a matter for their personal choice, as common practice, they have no authority either by rule or in law.
Suggested further reading, Susan Cheever's (herself in recovery) excellent book,'My name is Bill...' which provides the background not only to Bill W. but the history and development of A A.
Thank you for your time and interest in my post in which at least we can agree to disagree...
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Good for him...
Good for him...I just can't understand why you, apparently a keen advocate of the AA 'way of life' together with it's principles, continue by introducing the idea of letting actions speak louder than words, once again place people, in this case the late 'Dr. Bob', before principles?
Jesus fed 5,000, exactly the same number but He didn't go around expecting or advocating everyone else to do it.
Neither did his disciples cite him as an example of what was expected of others, they were pretty keen on his principles though.
Although, I'll expect you'll think I'm wrong about them.
Jesus fed 5,000, exactly the same number but He didn't go around expecting or advocating everyone else to do it.
Neither did his disciples cite him as an example of what was expected of others, they were pretty keen on his principles though.
Although, I'll expect you'll think I'm wrong about them.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Originally Posted by whalebelow2
...A selfish program it is then...
Kinda like what is said on a plane that folks should put on their own oxygen mask before attempting to put their children's masks on.
(o:
NoelleR
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Thank you...
Thank you for that observation, yes, I agree to say that it's a 'selfish program' does sound a bit facetious, but it's said more in a rhetorical manner, rather than a direct personal statement, reflecting on the individual making it.
Which a lot of people on first hearing it fail to grasp. I've spent my life in four professions as a 'high functioning' alcoholic helping others, and yet in the one place I went to for help, the Fellowship of A A got none.
Other than by one guy who I'd known handing me a set of cd's, which were a recording of a 'Big Book Study' weekend run by two guys 'Charlie and Joe', who were at pains to say that this was not anything to do with A A, although they firmly supported it. It was simply was it was, a 'Big Book Study' which, together with additional material explained the content and meaning of the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' which eventually played a big part, and still does today in my recovery.
'Returning me to a society, that once rejected me' as it says somewhere in the A A literature....
I take no issue with what others do with their lives, in or out of A A, in recovery or not.
Having found their is a 'bigger picture' to life, in helping others supported by my simple Christian beliefs, in the God of my understanding. Enhanced by fundamental Buddhist philosophy /psychology.
Which are built on the idea of putting the needs of others before self. If you consider that 'selfish',that both a question of interpretation and a matter for you and your conscience.... I know where I stand and that 's all that really matters, I can't be other people, no more than I can get sober for them.
Which a lot of people on first hearing it fail to grasp. I've spent my life in four professions as a 'high functioning' alcoholic helping others, and yet in the one place I went to for help, the Fellowship of A A got none.
Other than by one guy who I'd known handing me a set of cd's, which were a recording of a 'Big Book Study' weekend run by two guys 'Charlie and Joe', who were at pains to say that this was not anything to do with A A, although they firmly supported it. It was simply was it was, a 'Big Book Study' which, together with additional material explained the content and meaning of the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' which eventually played a big part, and still does today in my recovery.
'Returning me to a society, that once rejected me' as it says somewhere in the A A literature....
I take no issue with what others do with their lives, in or out of A A, in recovery or not.
Having found their is a 'bigger picture' to life, in helping others supported by my simple Christian beliefs, in the God of my understanding. Enhanced by fundamental Buddhist philosophy /psychology.
Which are built on the idea of putting the needs of others before self. If you consider that 'selfish',that both a question of interpretation and a matter for you and your conscience.... I know where I stand and that 's all that really matters, I can't be other people, no more than I can get sober for them.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
The final piece of the puzzle...
One thing that puzzles me is why people should automatically think that those on this site, seeking or in recovery followed hopefully by prolonged sobriety are automatically not only members of A A, but pursuing the suggested 12 Step program of recovery it advances and bound by its traditions...and will be so for the rest of their lives?
Not least as in the final suggested 12th Step there's mention of 'practising these principles in all our affairs'. clearly indicating they're not just limited to A A but to living, as we all do to one extent or another, in life and society itself.
Apart from which there are other beliefs, faiths and religions or even if you're an atheist philosophy's, which advance a way of life that shun attachments to anything that smacks at lust or desire for anything, including drugs and alcohol.
Plus the fact that a lot of the 12 the program of recovery can be found in and was formulated on basic religious texts and for atheists, as they don't believe in God, certainly not in the Western in the various disciplines in Buddhist philosophy and I'm sure many others....
As far as I'm aware AA, its 12 Step program and Traditions doesn't own the sole rights to recovery and sobriety, nor would it want to. Contrary to the belief of some of its members. 'Live and let live, right!' and keep an open mind...
Not least as in the final suggested 12th Step there's mention of 'practising these principles in all our affairs'. clearly indicating they're not just limited to A A but to living, as we all do to one extent or another, in life and society itself.
Apart from which there are other beliefs, faiths and religions or even if you're an atheist philosophy's, which advance a way of life that shun attachments to anything that smacks at lust or desire for anything, including drugs and alcohol.
Plus the fact that a lot of the 12 the program of recovery can be found in and was formulated on basic religious texts and for atheists, as they don't believe in God, certainly not in the Western in the various disciplines in Buddhist philosophy and I'm sure many others....
As far as I'm aware AA, its 12 Step program and Traditions doesn't own the sole rights to recovery and sobriety, nor would it want to. Contrary to the belief of some of its members. 'Live and let live, right!' and keep an open mind...
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