A timely reminder....
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
A timely reminder....
Any student of the history and development of both the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' and the Fellowship of the same name. Will know it was built on controversy and argument. Not always constructive.
As we seek to make spiritual progress and don't claim spiritual perfection, it's then quite easy to suggest, it 'goes with the territory' and is part of the ongoing development of A.A. and even this site, which is in itself a community involving a mixed bunch of individuals trying, in recovery and the hoped for, lasting sobriety.
To seek release from the insidious disease/illness of alcoholism.
It seems right then that they to will engage in argument and controversy.
The danger to me is that in forgetting where it all began, back in 1935 is that the principle of 'attacking the argument and not the person making it' also forgotten.
It seems to me that if you do that, you might not only lose the argument, there's every chance you'll lose your sobriety to!
Whilst I've no problem in looking back, I don't stare, but often a timely reminder of where I and I'm sure many others come from, is as much , if not more useful than anything at hand today.
As we seek to make spiritual progress and don't claim spiritual perfection, it's then quite easy to suggest, it 'goes with the territory' and is part of the ongoing development of A.A. and even this site, which is in itself a community involving a mixed bunch of individuals trying, in recovery and the hoped for, lasting sobriety.
To seek release from the insidious disease/illness of alcoholism.
It seems right then that they to will engage in argument and controversy.
The danger to me is that in forgetting where it all began, back in 1935 is that the principle of 'attacking the argument and not the person making it' also forgotten.
It seems to me that if you do that, you might not only lose the argument, there's every chance you'll lose your sobriety to!
Whilst I've no problem in looking back, I don't stare, but often a timely reminder of where I and I'm sure many others come from, is as much , if not more useful than anything at hand today.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
The danger to me is that in forgetting that the principle of 'attacking the argument and not the person making it' also forgotten.
It seems to me that if you do that, you might not only lose the argument, there's every chance you'll lose your sobriety too!
It seems to me that if you do that, you might not only lose the argument, there's every chance you'll lose your sobriety too!
I was trained that a personal attack when there was nothing rational to say, was really a sign that my position was wrong or that I was simply unable to support it.
Maybe the issue is ours, expecting a higher level of discourse from the interweb? Even here?
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Thank you...
Thank you for your constructive, well informed response to my post..reflecting on your suggestion that perhaps people like you and I and no doubt others expect to much of certain individuals. Who remind me very much of those who turn up at A.A. meetings, often in a state of complete denial, who have all the answers and know none of the questions...yet in doing so convince other similar minded people of their credibility...
Consequently, when this takes hold, you end up in a situation, best described as being like the lunatics running the asylum.
Which often results in those with credibility and the ability to think cognitively, leaving and moving on. Seeking better options and a future for themselves.
For the individuals I've referred to and their acolytes, there's often a certain amount of temporary relief, in their 'white knuckle sobriety' until the inevitable outcome and they end up back where they started, only this time. Perhaps even worse...
For the group, community, whatever,you end up with the 'Sandburg effect' i.e. as Carl Sandburg said,'A society that forgets where it came from. Will destroy itself,' history has repeatedly proved the truth of this statement...
My thanks, once again for your interest and illuminating observations.
Consequently, when this takes hold, you end up in a situation, best described as being like the lunatics running the asylum.
Which often results in those with credibility and the ability to think cognitively, leaving and moving on. Seeking better options and a future for themselves.
For the individuals I've referred to and their acolytes, there's often a certain amount of temporary relief, in their 'white knuckle sobriety' until the inevitable outcome and they end up back where they started, only this time. Perhaps even worse...
For the group, community, whatever,you end up with the 'Sandburg effect' i.e. as Carl Sandburg said,'A society that forgets where it came from. Will destroy itself,' history has repeatedly proved the truth of this statement...
My thanks, once again for your interest and illuminating observations.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
SR has been helpful to me in examining my own motives. When I have a strong reaction, good or bad, often my ego is involved. When I feel judged or exposed by someone I find that my ego gets stirred, my mind wants to find reasons to dismiss that person. Likewise, the swelling pride I feel when someone is complimentary causes my ego to want to inflate the importance of that person.
I find that when I am making judgements about anyone, and wanting to dismiss them or elevate them, I am being triggered in a way that usually involves my ego. Often, I am seeing a part of myself that I don't recognize manifested in an obvious way in someone else. It has been painfully obvious to me when I go back and read some of my own old posts that my ego was driving that day.
This journey has taught me to begin to learn how not to relegate people as good or bad. There are posters who I have rolled my eyes at, yet a month later I find an incredible post that moves me from the same person.
I don't believe sobriety is a straight line equation. I believe there are times in this community that we give, and there are times when we receive. Newcomers represent the full spectrum of human emotion, as do old timers. I would wager that in a real asylum I would gain as much from talking to the patients as I would from talking to the staff. I think serenity comes when we release our need to live in a simplistic distinction. Serenity to me comes with understanding that we are all points on a spectrum, never static, always dynamic. There are times when we become synchronized, but I don't believed this is ever a fixed state.
As alcoholics in recovery, we will never be done, we will only be at different points minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day in our own personal journey.
I find that when I am making judgements about anyone, and wanting to dismiss them or elevate them, I am being triggered in a way that usually involves my ego. Often, I am seeing a part of myself that I don't recognize manifested in an obvious way in someone else. It has been painfully obvious to me when I go back and read some of my own old posts that my ego was driving that day.
This journey has taught me to begin to learn how not to relegate people as good or bad. There are posters who I have rolled my eyes at, yet a month later I find an incredible post that moves me from the same person.
I don't believe sobriety is a straight line equation. I believe there are times in this community that we give, and there are times when we receive. Newcomers represent the full spectrum of human emotion, as do old timers. I would wager that in a real asylum I would gain as much from talking to the patients as I would from talking to the staff. I think serenity comes when we release our need to live in a simplistic distinction. Serenity to me comes with understanding that we are all points on a spectrum, never static, always dynamic. There are times when we become synchronized, but I don't believed this is ever a fixed state.
As alcoholics in recovery, we will never be done, we will only be at different points minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day in our own personal journey.
Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North East, US
Posts: 2,310
Originally Posted by freshstart57 
, it's really a trivial response that's manifest in two ways.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: TN
Posts: 263
Is it wrong if I find your original post here constructive, yet find your follow-up to it confusing and disturbing, yet mildly entertaining?
I'm kind of new here and I joined because I see a bottom-line likemindedness that I myself share with you and others:
I want to stay sober and continue on in my journey.
I admire and applaud your sobriety. Your length of sober of time and where you are in your journey is an inspiration.
I admire and applaud everyone here, too, whatever their length of sobriety may be or wherever they may be in their lives. Because we are all moving forward in our new sober lives.
And even if someone is not sober or trying to get sober or keeps slipping again and again, I want the best for them. They have knowledge and acknowledgement of their problem(s) and the want and need to do the right thing.
I like your first post better because you seem to affirm that though folks may disagree from time to time, we all need to be aware and vigilant to not let any kind of debate or (strong word, possibly too strong) "argument" distract us from our sobriety.
In your follow-up post, I get confused, it seems to not agree with your first post, and then when terms are used like "lunatics running the asylum" and "acolytes" I couldn't help but laugh. Perhaps this is wrong, and if it is, I apologize.
What disturbs me, though, is what seems to be a fatalistic view re: "a certain amount of temporary relief" and "white knuckle sobriety."
We are fighting for our lives here. Let's encourage one another!
I'm kind of new here and I joined because I see a bottom-line likemindedness that I myself share with you and others:
I want to stay sober and continue on in my journey.
I admire and applaud your sobriety. Your length of sober of time and where you are in your journey is an inspiration.
I admire and applaud everyone here, too, whatever their length of sobriety may be or wherever they may be in their lives. Because we are all moving forward in our new sober lives.
And even if someone is not sober or trying to get sober or keeps slipping again and again, I want the best for them. They have knowledge and acknowledgement of their problem(s) and the want and need to do the right thing.
I like your first post better because you seem to affirm that though folks may disagree from time to time, we all need to be aware and vigilant to not let any kind of debate or (strong word, possibly too strong) "argument" distract us from our sobriety.
In your follow-up post, I get confused, it seems to not agree with your first post, and then when terms are used like "lunatics running the asylum" and "acolytes" I couldn't help but laugh. Perhaps this is wrong, and if it is, I apologize.
What disturbs me, though, is what seems to be a fatalistic view re: "a certain amount of temporary relief" and "white knuckle sobriety."
We are fighting for our lives here. Let's encourage one another!
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Originally Posted by ImperfectlyMe
Is there a trivia referee in this? What you might see as trivial I may see as profound and may shed light in my own recovery. After all we are all doing this for ourselves.
Do you feel that attacking the person making the argument, rather than the argument being made, can be profound in any way? Isn't this what we are talking about here?
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,359
Sometimes when I have a strong negative reaction to someone it's because they are serving as a mirror. I can't see my own unwanted behavior but I can see it in somebody else. Sometimes they just punch a weakness in me. Either way I take a good look at the situation to see what I am supposed to learn from it. That is I try to not always successful.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
For myself...
For myself, I've always tried to like people for who they are, NOT what they are, regardless of their race, class or gender...it often pays dividends in the most unexpected ways...in many areas of my life.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gatineau, QC, CA
Posts: 5,100
Yikes! I'm french and not getting half of what your guys are talking about.
But I'm on 5 days and doing really well and feeling happy.
And that's all I have to say about that. (Forest gump) LOL!
But I'm on 5 days and doing really well and feeling happy.
And that's all I have to say about that. (Forest gump) LOL!
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Hence...
Hence the expression, 'Old age and guile, will always beat youth and enthusiasm'...but Mohammed Ali didn't say that, I did.
Nice to see you hear, glad you're making progress, 5 days is better than none in anybody's language.
Nice to see you hear, glad you're making progress, 5 days is better than none in anybody's language.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Redmayne - since April of 2011 you have not posted in any other section other than Recovery and Where were you...I know you are a 12 stepper and have some great AA knowledge, why not be a bigger part of the community vs staying here?
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
jDooner...
jDooner - thanks for your query,which I take as a compliment, although I'm sure for reasons I will explain, others won't...
Although I am at a loss as to why if you are personally disturbed at the quality of my sobriety as to why you didn't raise it in a private message, rather than air it publicly in what I can only perceive as an attempt to embarrass me?
To answer your specific query,using three tenets of A A, found in the philosophy expounded of the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' of , live and let live, keeping it simple and the fact that the suggested 12 Step progam of recovery, is in fact a selfish progam, aimed specifically at the individual , on the premise that in helping others, you help your own recovery and sobriety.
In the fact just to digress slightly, there's a suggestion that it was Lois Wilson, Bod Wilson's wife who started A A. When after a year spent insobriety struggling to help others, Bob Wilson was in despair, when Lois pointed out to him, that whilst he may not have got anyone else sober. In his efforts to help others he'd kept himself sober - see 'Bobs Story' in the book,'Alcoholics Anonymous'.
So whilst I acknowledge the genuine nature of suggestion. I post my threads on these or any other forums, to share my experience, strength and hope with others, with a view to helping them, and as it's a selfish program to strengthen, enhance and guard my own sobriety. Without which, I'm only to well aware, as are others, that I might drink, knowing to do so has only two outcomes as it does for all alcoholics. Insanity or death, most hoping the latter comes first!
I also know that you, like me have an interest in Buddhism, which holds that the three greatest spiritual values are, compassion, patience and tolerance, especially in dealing with other. Noting that 'fierce compassion' which can be exercised towards those who by their behaviour or actions, alarm or distress you i.e.those who abuse drugs or alcohol or engage in sexual promiscuity. See - the Tibetan 'Book of the Dead'.
Buddhism also suggests that when dealing with people or matters to which there is no immediate answer, it's often best to, having regard to all the circumstances, compromise or seek ,'the third way'...
Perhaps then, given your suggestion, I should reflect of this, in tun suggestion to you that if you genuinely seek your own recovery and want prolonged sobriety. It's better not to dwell on the actions and behaviour of others.
It's the quality, not the length of your own sobriety that matters, not that of others, they are free to help themselves in whatever manner that suits them, 'live and let live! right.
Thank you for providing me with the opportunity of replying to your query...
Although I am at a loss as to why if you are personally disturbed at the quality of my sobriety as to why you didn't raise it in a private message, rather than air it publicly in what I can only perceive as an attempt to embarrass me?
To answer your specific query,using three tenets of A A, found in the philosophy expounded of the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' of , live and let live, keeping it simple and the fact that the suggested 12 Step progam of recovery, is in fact a selfish progam, aimed specifically at the individual , on the premise that in helping others, you help your own recovery and sobriety.
In the fact just to digress slightly, there's a suggestion that it was Lois Wilson, Bod Wilson's wife who started A A. When after a year spent insobriety struggling to help others, Bob Wilson was in despair, when Lois pointed out to him, that whilst he may not have got anyone else sober. In his efforts to help others he'd kept himself sober - see 'Bobs Story' in the book,'Alcoholics Anonymous'.
So whilst I acknowledge the genuine nature of suggestion. I post my threads on these or any other forums, to share my experience, strength and hope with others, with a view to helping them, and as it's a selfish program to strengthen, enhance and guard my own sobriety. Without which, I'm only to well aware, as are others, that I might drink, knowing to do so has only two outcomes as it does for all alcoholics. Insanity or death, most hoping the latter comes first!
I also know that you, like me have an interest in Buddhism, which holds that the three greatest spiritual values are, compassion, patience and tolerance, especially in dealing with other. Noting that 'fierce compassion' which can be exercised towards those who by their behaviour or actions, alarm or distress you i.e.those who abuse drugs or alcohol or engage in sexual promiscuity. See - the Tibetan 'Book of the Dead'.
Buddhism also suggests that when dealing with people or matters to which there is no immediate answer, it's often best to, having regard to all the circumstances, compromise or seek ,'the third way'...
Perhaps then, given your suggestion, I should reflect of this, in tun suggestion to you that if you genuinely seek your own recovery and want prolonged sobriety. It's better not to dwell on the actions and behaviour of others.
It's the quality, not the length of your own sobriety that matters, not that of others, they are free to help themselves in whatever manner that suits them, 'live and let live! right.
Thank you for providing me with the opportunity of replying to your query...
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mid-Atlantic USA
Posts: 2,441
Originally Posted by Redmayne
Although I am at a loss as to why if you are personally disturbed at the quality of my sobriety as to why you didn't raise it in a private message, rather than air it publicly in what I can only perceive as an attempt to embarrass me?
Rather, he was simply suggesting that a man of your wisdom and experience would be a nice asset if you participated on the other forums here at Sober Recovery.
You may want to reread his post.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
An apology...
I would like to apologize for the fact that in my original post, I made a mistake in my reference to Bill Wilson, as Bob or 'Bod' a typo one of the original co-founders of A A.mixing him up with the other co-founder, known affectionately as 'Dr. Bob'.
Noting that once again there seems to be a 'strong flavor', in the responses to anything I say in my posts of, putting personalities before principles, something in both A A and recovery I've always understood you should never do.
For the simple and obvious reason, it has a tendency to hinder others and your own recovery. I've no intention of revising my original thread or hindering my own recovery by becoming involved in hindering others or my own recovery. It's, as described in both the 'Big Book' and A A, a 'selfish program' right!
Noting that once again there seems to be a 'strong flavor', in the responses to anything I say in my posts of, putting personalities before principles, something in both A A and recovery I've always understood you should never do.
For the simple and obvious reason, it has a tendency to hinder others and your own recovery. I've no intention of revising my original thread or hindering my own recovery by becoming involved in hindering others or my own recovery. It's, as described in both the 'Big Book' and A A, a 'selfish program' right!
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