tsukiko

Been a long time since I’ve been on here. My birthday, yesterday, got me re-assessing stuff…

AVRT having (for me personally) changed my life, I don’t now consider myself a non-using-junkie trying to find something else to fill the void, but just a person trying to fill the void. Sounds like semantics, I know, but a notable difference is that a person with a void doesn’t first and foremost turn to drugs or booze to fill it. A junky does. I haven’t turned (in my thoughts or actions) to booze or drugs since discovering AVRT.

The ‘junky problem’ solved, eh?

And yet…due to a habit my colleague actually felt the need to speak to me to last week and which I see now I’ve unwittingly developed and which trying to stop left me experiencing totally unexpected withdrawal, I’ve returned to wondering what addiction is. I’ve treat it as if we are all as likely as each other to become junkies and that it is more environmental and a nurture issue than anything.

This ‘new habit’ and my use of beta blockers (I've posted about that in the thread titled 'beta blockers'), have made me question this.

Despite shirking the junkie label and successfully separating myself from ‘the addict voice’ I have somehow still, unwittingly, managed to develop a new habit / addiction.

Then, have I developed this habit because my mind has been conditioned over years of addiction (especially having been an addict through my most formative years and majority of my life) to repeat the same behaviours and operate in a ‘junky fashion’ or is my brain somehow hardwired to predispose me to addiction on a biological level?

I saw recently that Professor and former drugs czar, David Nut, argues that 10% of the population (the percentage of drinkers who will develop alcoholism) are predisposed to addiction due to the way their brains actually work. I’ve always shirked or at best ignored this idea; who wants to believe they’re part of a minority forever likely to be fighting the impulse to do anything to excess?

Now, I’m once again faced with kicking a habit (or two), I’m wondering about this as my seemingly bullet proof AVRT approach has proved to have a rather gaping loophole; am I to use AVRT to address my recent habit and add another thing to my ever growing list of things I will never consume again? Then, where will it end if I do and what is to stop me from unwittingly just carrying my habit over onto something else and what will the next thing be?

What do you think, guys; any thoughts? Anyone found themselves in this position?

SoberKnitter

I think we all have the "void" you speak of, the trick is just to fill it with something beneficial as opposed to detrimental.

I don't think the science is solid on people being predisposed to addiction. If so, we could do scans on infants and predict their future addictions. But even if I'm wired for addiction, I choose to see it as a superpower. Addictions are just compulsions, after all. In my first year sober I plan to knit several beautiful sweaters and run a marathon. I suspect those goals might be a good use of my compulsive nature.

tsukiko

Yeah, the void is a feature of the human condition, rather than a hole left by the absence of drugs; it was there before and it ain't something you can heal any more than you can remove a heart cause' sometimes it hurts to have one; it's an integral part of being a human / being alive. I agree with you, SK.

Keep knitting .

Anyone experienced success with AVRT and yet still unwittingly managed to develop new habits?

soberlicious

Well, AVRT's sole purpose is to end substance addiction through the use of the big plan. By the author's own admission, it does not advise on how to better your life in any other way. It's purpose is not to help you fill the hole that's left.

Am I understanding that you have developed another substance addiction? Or a process addiction? I have dealt with my addiction to nicotine in the same way I quit drinking. I have also stopped sexual behaviors that were problematic for me the same way. Although a big plan involving food, sex, or gambling does "look different", I think other addictions or problematic behaviors can be addressed in a similar fashion.

I don't think one would need to create a big plan for each substance, per se, but rather a big plan involving all intoxicants.

From your OP, I think what you're asking is, will this be like a game of whack-a-mole, ever trying to beat down the next thing that pops up. I don't think so. Now that you have ended your addiction to booze/and drugs, you are free to find ways to address your penchant for "moremoremore" that seems to be hindering you.
It's possible that this is the case, but that certainly doesn't mean that you can't override the midbrain. The human brain is nothing if not adaptable. Again, it's possible that biologically there may be some difference genetically, but no one knows that for sure. Leaning too hard on that theory could lead toward a very nihilistic attitude in terms of your behaviors. My AV would be screaming "Let's do it! Who cares...you were born a junkie anyway, quit trying to fight it." As we all know, whatever comes from the AV has a specific agenda, so whatever it says can't be trusted. In a word, it's all malarky.

Have you reread RR:The New Cure with an eye toward this new "thing" that's troubling you?

tsukiko

Aye, what made AVRT so effective, at least in part, for me was that it didn’t try to fill the void.

It’s not a drug habit (thank hell), rather a sugar habit. Much less destructive I know. It hasn’t got me panicked, more the fact that it took an ‘outsider’ alerting me to it to notice has me both wondering and a little disconcerted.

A big plan involving all seems so logical, how did I fail to think of that? Thanks, Soberlicious.

Yeah, I ain’t looking to blame my behaviours on anything or looking for an answer that proves I’m fated to being a junky of sorts so I can ‘give in’ either.

I've actually nothing to give in to…there is no fight; for me, the battle is over. There’s no bitterness. No anger. No desire for another round. No hard feelings at all. I am just a regular human; my life is neither dominated by using heroin or staying off it. Same with booze.

Cheers, Soberlicious (really, thanks), I’ll be sure to reread The New Cure.

awuh1

“The void” of which you speak reminded me of a description by Carl Jung. He referred to it as that “thirst of our being for wholeness”. As per his advice, what is needed is something that “leads you to higher understanding”. I hope you find it.

tsukiko

Thirst - what a perfect description. Thanks for the insight, awuh.

Is that thirst or void the reason I'm (even unwittingly) forming new habits (however manageable after gear etc)? Ain't going to rule it out. Maybe just a matter of being clean and sober long enough to really start getting into 'normal person' habits to go with my new 'normal person' life.

One thing - I really did fail to realise that even when pledging AVRT style, its a pledge I need to make to avoid 'bad habits' (legal or otherwise) rather than pledging to stop using specific substances (like you said, soberlicious), I think, if I really want to pledge anything in the long term. Then, maybe I am done with gear and booze, but not quite as willing to give up old habits in every way as that idea makes me a bit prickly...even now. That is definitely worth being aware of...and I wasn't. Had I been, I prolly' wouldn't have even started this thread or had questions to ask.

Guess the trick is to keep trying to keep my eyes and mind open, eh?

Cheers, guys. Much appreciate y'time and input. Given me some stuff to really think over. Thank you.

awuh1

Here is a link to Jung's entire letter. Note the three ways to come to this higher understanding. I find the letter precious. A.A. History -- Dr. Carl Jung's Letter To Bill Wilson, Jan 30, 1961

GerandTwine

You have a very creative Addictive Voice.

tsukiko

‘You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or through personal and honest contact with friends, or through a higher education’

Thanks for the link, awuh – Jung’s letter makes for interesting reading, you’re right.

tsukiko

That part of me will be and do anything to get what it wants; my attempts to educate myself to safeguard myself against it only provide the part of me hell bent on destroying everything (including myself) the tools it needs to do it expertly. That's the irony; it knows everything I do, yet sometimes I have remind myself it is actually a part of me because it seems so much more intelligent and creative than I am.

‘Goes back to what Soberknitter said about (if some of us are predisposed to become addicts) choosing to interpret being ‘wired for addiction’ as a superpower – however you choose to interpret something, the fact we can or must interpret things means that we can pretty much make them mean anything we please, long as we can argue our point persuasively – people don’t have to agree, after all, just believe your point is the result of logical or rational thinking; it’s amazing and awesome what we can do with language and logic…how it shapes, forms and can both create and destroy our internal worlds and even the external world...and how logic can be used and beautifully expressed through language as a perfectly logical argument against even itself (this very post is an example of that, by it's end)...

Think that's how and why I failed to think of AVRT in the way Soberlicious suggested I use it. Yet, having thought about that and read some more...I'm (atleast right now) left with this:

Even now, when I've no longer any desire to use heroin or drink alcohol, it suddenly seems that way because that voice don't care specifically about heroin or alcohol. Then, I should have and need to use AVRT against that voice rather than against heroin and booze and sugar and all the rest.

Then, my problem is how to separate myself from 'that voice' which leads me into being an addict when it is the very same voice which compels me to be curious and to problem solve; it is the same voice which make me what and who I am - a human and someone who is curious and 'thirsty' for knowledge, experience and life itself.

Maybe then it is about separating the voice that makes me curious to try things (be it drugs or books or bungee jumping) from the voice that tells me 'try it again; it could be different this time...' Yet, both are one voice: a new experience is not just an experience of a new 'thing'; every time we try even the same thing, at least one variable will have changed (be it time, location, whatever), hence, there is the potential that the outcome will be different...

It is more than creative; it's like a chess opponent I lose to every time; do I keep going back to it in the hope I will one day win when doing so requires me to keep going back over and over again or do I separate myself from it permanently which means walking away from, well, all forms of empirical research, which is pretty much to walk away from life itself. After all, I've already changed the game how many times now and that seems to have only served to limit my losses or serve to limit the damage going back causes. Which returns me to my initial question, do I just keep changing the games till there's nothing left to play?


P.S. I'm not expecting anyone to come to my rescue, just musing and trying to figure **** out; people in my day-to-day life keep telling me 'you need to talk about stuff'...I'm not underestimating them by not saying this stuff to them...more, worried I'll bore or concern them. I just know from past experience that if I said anything like this to them they'd be more likely to at best pretend it never happened or at worst call an intervention than start a debate.

GerandTwine

In AVRT they are NOT one voice.

I quit booze/pot and other more mind altering drugs all at once more than a decade before I quit coffee, then chocolate, and then jump 20 years to last May, right here on SR, I quit sweets for good and it's all worked wonderfully, each being an independent decision, recognizing different AVs of different Beasts, with no sense of having an "addictive personality" in between at all.

Oh, and I quit smoking tobacco only 3 months after booze/pot. But I then used Copenhagen snuff for a year before I smacked down the nicotine Beast permanently.

So, I've made 5 Big Plans on separate substances over a more than 30 year span. By those decisions I have quickly and permanently "recovered"; and they have allowed me to remain completely outside of the "recovery group movement", thus living a life unremarkably different from someone who never had an alcohol/drug addiction.

When I look at people's lives I see we all have habituated lifestyles, and changing some of those habits often takes place for any number of reasons, rational or not.

SoberKnitter

I think we need to keep in mind that the beast is a metaphor, and that what's happening at the level of the brain is merely letting a neuropathway that starts the size of a super highway go dormant. We are extinguishing very specific cravings, not the desire for new pleasurable experiences in general. It is doubtful that one would start bungee jumping habitually in response to physical or emotional triggers, so it would seem difficult to become addicted to bungee jumping. You have to repeat a pleasurable experience many times in order for it to become compulsive.

Before addiction sets in, you can easily make choices about what new experiences to repeat. If you try something and it turns out to be bad for your well-being, then you can simply use your rational mind to choose not to do it again. Because it's a new experience, you don't have the requisite neuropathway for the beast to weigh in.

I'm not worried about being free of all compulsions. Sometimes I knit when I should be doing dishes (the AV always says, "one more row") or read when I should be sleeping ("one more page"), but these are compulsions that I can live with. I'm happy to let the knitting, reading and running beasts have their way most of the time. I'm actively trying to create a cleaning beast.

Threshold

I don't use AVRT so interpret my comments/experience with that in mind.

I find this a fascinating and wonderful thread!

I think that some people are just addicted to a particular substance. They stop exposing themselves to it, and go about their lives. Nuff said.

Other do have a biological predisposition for addictive behavior. I think one of the reasons there are different recovery programs and methods that are effective is to address this reality. Some can withdraw and walk away from their DOC, and others are playing whack-a-mole and need to outsmart, retrain and detour their brain chemistry onto a constructive path.

I posit that the success of a social species like our own, depends on such varied "personality" traits. Because to an extent social groups act as an organism, it needs people with different talents, interests, skills, personalities etc in order to function and to adapt to changing conditions. The so called "addictive personality" for all it's potential potholes often does go along with other traits that are beneficial to society. Yes, I AM referring to certain stereotypes, but those didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Many OCD people, artists, writers, and workaholics, people obsessed with earning money or conquering some crazy feat...have THAT personality. And they get some amazing things done, often at their own expense, but they have led society along to some worthwhile accomplishments. Some questionable one's as well, but there it is.

I have an addictive personality/biology. I have played some whack-a-mole, but I also have nursed numerous addictions all at the same time! Yey for a crazy multi tasking mind. I have found that programs that address one can be applied to others, and the skills I find in directing my thoughts and energy can likewise be used across the board.

I have to apply these things as necessary for the betterment of my own life. That's my challenge. Doesn't mean I obsess over it, or white knuckle through my entire life, or wring my hands as I run into addiction at every turn. I have those days, weeks, months where those things occur. I'm being honest. But overall life isn't like that. I DO have to deal with those things more than the average joe. They have to deal with their lot in life. Acceptance and getting on with things is what people have to do, not just addicts, everyone.

I can and do direct my obsessive, compulsive, and manic ways in directions that do more good than harm. That is an option. It takes some vigilance on my part, the way managing any trait or tendency does, in order to get the most out of it.

Not everyone feels like they have a void to fill. That may be part of the addictive personality, I don't know. But many people don't feel incomplete, hollow or constantly wondering what their purpose is. The world needs that sort as well.

Meanwhile...I am going to apply all the functions of my brain towards building a life experience I want to live. While I do believe I have an addictive biology, it's also clear I have other brain functions that deserve at least equal energy and effort and ability to direct my life.

soberlicious

For me, when I say a big plan for all intoxicants, I mean I don't have a separate plan for alcohol, benzos, pot, etc... my plan is I will not use chemicals to get f*cked up. I quit smoking many years after I quit drinking, but that plan has sort of merged with the other one in that "I will not do sh*t that hurts me anymore" Like soberknitter said, I can make adjustments to behaviors whenever I see fit.

I do not believe it is possible for humans to completely rid themselves of the desire for pleasurable experiences, but even if it were, why would I want to do that?!

bemyself

Something sparked in me when the idea of Jung's 'void' (as applied to addictions) came up. I've just got my copy of his Memories, Dreams, Reflections....This leapt out at me, from the 'Retrospect' section, towards the end:

'I have had much trouble in living with my ideas. There was a daimon [demon] in me, and in the end its presence proved decisive. It overpowered me, and if I was at times ruthless it was because I was in the grip of the daimon. I could never stop at anything once attained. I had to hasten on, to catch up with my vision. Since my contemporaries, understandably, could not perceive my vision, they saw only a fool rushing ahead'.

Quite a bit here, for thought.

awuh1

Yes the man did have vision.

Jung’s third way or “path” to wholeness , “a higher understanding of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism” was a bit of a mystery to me.

This quote by Jung helps put it in perspective.

“Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart ... Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens”.

tsukiko

Finally got some time off work – phew!

SoberKnitter –

I was only using those as examples to try show the seemingly limitless possibilities I was referring to when I said 'things', but what about all the ‘ adrenaline junkies’ ? Extreme sports causes the release of the same endorphins that gambling or sex or self-harm does…

What you say about addiction is certainly rational, but if it was that simple there would be no addiction in the first place; problem is, humans aren't purely rational. We may use reason and logic, but we are driven by emotion and desire and feeling; you can have emotion without any knowable reason, but to have reason without any emotion would be to create fire without fuel.

Have you ever read Burroughs, his novels or dispositions? In much of his writing, Burroughs subverts the notion of the ‘junkie’ so that the junkie become the only voice of reason, and consequently the voice of truth. I’m mentioning him here because his writing deftly expounds how reason and logic can be easily and effectively turned upon themselves in much the same way people (and his characters) actually use logic and rational thinking to turn upon themselves. It raises a number of issues, not least the idea that logic is, like Descartes made clear about our senses, ironically rather insufficient...and that we use it, like our senses, because we have nothing else rather than because it provides an effective or reliable means of assessing anything.



Threshhold –

I've re-read more than once since I tagged it, but ain't had chance to actually say ta' till now - amazing post. Thank you.



Having read all the replies, I'm thinking (some, if not all) people have parts of their personality / profile / make-up which cannot be wholly or permanently ignored or 'cured' and that it is the nature of these aspects which differ, person to person. I agree with you there, Threshhold.

AVRT has lead me to dramatically change my life, but (for me at least) while I’ve isolated a specific ‘AV’, the creative and destructive voice remain as either the same voice or as two inextricably bound voices; they are, after all, binary opposites.

I think Glicksberg eloquently sums up the point I’ve been trying to express and which Nietzsche too ended up at (irresolvably, I should add): 'Nietzsche discerned a dialectical synthesis of seemingly opposed energies, the nay blending with the yea, the destructive and creative instinct fused' .

SoberKnitter

That's kind of my point. You can get endorphins from running or sex (healthy) or harmful substances (unhealthy). I get an oxytocin hit every time I cuddle with my cats and some serotonin when I knit. Yep, the possibilities for obtaining pleasure are limitless. I call that a good thing.

It is that simple. If I never try heroin - something I know causes pleasure - then I can never get addicted to it. The problem is that most people who drink don't get addicted (they don't get enough of an endorphin hit) and most people who take prescription drugs or try illicit drugs don't get addicted, so it was rational for me to think that I could use those substances with a reasonable chance of avoiding grave harm. I now know that I am in the unlucky minority, so now it is rational to avoid even trying things that might be harmful to me if done compulsively.

We can be purely rational about some things, particularly the avoidance of pain. I doubt you will suddenly have an emotional urge to set yourself on fire or hit yourself with a hammer. If we successfully put drinking or using in the same category, then we can rely on reason.

Augusten Burroughs? I read some of his stuff years ago. I think he describes the AV hijacking the thinking of an addict. Truth is not subjective. Reason and logic cannot be used by your AV as effectively as by your prefrontal cortex, simply because truth is not on its side. Your AV can rationalize, but any former addict has all the empirical evidence in the world to point out its fallacious reasoning. I don't know about your AV, but mine has "reasoning" that is transparently flawed when recognized.

It really isn't hard to plainly see whether or not a particular substance or activity is good for your well-being. Any thinking that tries to reason otherwise is just so much AV. It has the same tools you do (reason, logic), but it doesn't have reality on its side. My AV can give me a hundred and one reasons why I'm better off drunk, but none of them track with my actual experience (i.e. reality).

soberlicious

What about us?

Exactly.