Got sober with AA, now I can't stand the meetings...
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Drinking is most certainly a behaviour, what else could it possibly be?
The idea that I am *this* close to relapsing and drinking again is not who I am. I choose to no longer define myself with a pile of empty vodka bottles and I have no fear of ever drinking again. It is not who I am. There is not a single thing that marks me as an addict. If you are an addict by your own construction and acceptance, OK for you. It is not OK for me.
ClearLight, maybe you can rethink the above by replacing every use of 'you' or 'your' with the words, 'I', 'me' and 'my'. Your meaning will stay the same, but the intent is much different. You are free to imagine yourself as you please, but you cannot imagine me to suit you.
The idea that I am *this* close to relapsing and drinking again is not who I am. I choose to no longer define myself with a pile of empty vodka bottles and I have no fear of ever drinking again. It is not who I am. There is not a single thing that marks me as an addict. If you are an addict by your own construction and acceptance, OK for you. It is not OK for me.
ClearLight, maybe you can rethink the above by replacing every use of 'you' or 'your' with the words, 'I', 'me' and 'my'. Your meaning will stay the same, but the intent is much different. You are free to imagine yourself as you please, but you cannot imagine me to suit you.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SoCal, California
Posts: 990
How about if I change the words "you" to "a person"? That way it's not a personal thing.
Here's the way I define it: a person that can not drink in moderation is an addict.
Some addicts drink and some addicts don't. That doesn't change the definition.
From what I can see people that can't drink in moderation, addicts, are hard wired differently than others. That's what makes them an addict.
It would be ridiculous to be afraid of that.
Again - If someone can't drink in moderation that person is an addict. If that person doesn't drink for the rest of their days then they are an addict that didn't drink for the rest of their days.
That's the way I see it.
Here's the way I define it: a person that can not drink in moderation is an addict.
Some addicts drink and some addicts don't. That doesn't change the definition.
From what I can see people that can't drink in moderation, addicts, are hard wired differently than others. That's what makes them an addict.
It would be ridiculous to be afraid of that.
Again - If someone can't drink in moderation that person is an addict. If that person doesn't drink for the rest of their days then they are an addict that didn't drink for the rest of their days.
That's the way I see it.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Here's the way I define it: a person that can not drink in moderation is an addict.
The world is not divided into two groups, moderate drinkers and immoderate ones. Most people, estimated at 4.2 billion of us, find ourselves in neither category.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SoCal, California
Posts: 990
We just see things differently.
I've done research into addiction and I'm very comfortable with the definition I've given. In addition it's pretty close to what is accepted in 12 step programs around the world.
There's already a lot of data tying addiction to genetic factors. Just as genetic factors determine height, skin color and many other conditions.
On that I flatly disagree. Someone either can drink in moderation or they can't. If they can't things will eventually go bad the longer they try to moderate.
If those that can't drink in moderation try to convince themselves that they are "in neither category" they will eventually find out they are wrong.
But we do have one thing in common - we both don't want to drink anymore.
I've done research into addiction and I'm very comfortable with the definition I've given. In addition it's pretty close to what is accepted in 12 step programs around the world.
There's already a lot of data tying addiction to genetic factors. Just as genetic factors determine height, skin color and many other conditions.
The world is not divided into two groups, moderate drinkers and immoderate ones.
If those that can't drink in moderation try to convince themselves that they are "in neither category" they will eventually find out they are wrong.
But we do have one thing in common - we both don't want to drink anymore.
Life Health Prosperity
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Louisana
Posts: 6,752
Mcpreng, So I am approaching my 90 day mark in recovery and I am at a real crossroads on what to do? You are FANTASTIC. Congratulations. Please stay sober no matter what. You are under no obligation to any organization for being sober. Rootin for ya. 
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hartford Connecticut
Posts: 3
The Rooms don't have to be your Life. They are a resource. Your Soberity is a gift. Like the talents in scripture your gift needs to be used. In the Rooms, they suggest service. You can take the principles you've learned and apply them outside the Rooms. but, I sugggest that you purpose to stay rooted to whichever group has served you best. Alcohol and Drugs are tools of the enemy, however you want to view it. if we don't Work and Live our Soberity the enemy will kick our asses. I don't know how you have learned and worked the steps. I was sober and clean 23 years without doing the steps. But when crisis came, I gradually went back to my old patterns of abuse. I am now doing the steps and grateful for the opportunity.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
I used to drink too much alcohol too often. So, I stopped drinking. I haven't drank for over two years. I am not addicted to alcohol. I am not an addict. You are free to call yourself whatever you wish, but that right stops when you try to define what I am.
In my experience there aren't two types of drinkers, those that can moderate and those that can't. There is only one kind of drinker and they will all eventually have issues if they drink enough and long enough. It's basic biochemistry.
In my experience there aren't two types of drinkers, those that can moderate and those that can't. There is only one kind of drinker and they will all eventually have issues if they drink enough and long enough. It's basic biochemistry.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by ru12 
I used to drink too much alcohol too often. So, I stopped drinking. I haven't drank for over two years. I am not addicted to alcohol. I am not an addict. You are free to call yourself whatever you wish, but that right stops when you try to define what I am.
In my experience there aren't two types of drinkers, those that can moderate and those that can't. There is only one kind of drinker and they will all eventually have issues if they drink enough and long enough. It's basic biochemistry.
In my experience there aren't two types of drinkers, those that can moderate and those that can't. There is only one kind of drinker and they will all eventually have issues if they drink enough and long enough. It's basic biochemistry.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: FL
Posts: 698
I've been sober only 6 mos and have felt some of these things. I have a couple thoughts. Please try to think about all, I say it with love.
First it's not possible to have thoroughly learned all the spiritual principles AA has to offer in 90 days. "Contempt prior to investigation" Stop doing that!!
Second, you seem to be taking other people's inventory, which is none of your business. You are there to get sober, and hopeful eventually help those still suffering, not discover other people's character flaws. Stop doing that!!
Thirdly, you seem to trusting some people with personal information that are untrustworthy, stop doing that!!
What should you do? Remember that this is a recover program, not your life, which you seem to get. Some of these people become addicted to addiction and recovery. I am a working professional, I have a life. That's the whole point, for me to be restored and function in my life. But I still need the meetings. I decided about 4 a week is good. I am bringing a meeting into the women's jail. It'll be a step 1-3 meeting. To keep what I've gained I have to give it away!! If I stop going to meetings, I will be susceptible to relapse.
My friends and family are still my friends and family, barring any toxic people. If I make some friends in AA, that's great, but not my goal. I have friends who love me; some of the folks at meetings don't have that anymore. AA really is all they have; so consider yourself fortunate.
Branch out and try some different groups, some with more substance. I love big book studies. I like the idea of starting your own small group, I suggest a group of women, call it a book club, do it with a few friends, and leave it off the list. Two books I recommend are "Drop the Rock," and "A women's way through the 12 steps." I get a lot out of these informal meetings.
Whatever you decide, I wish you well.
First it's not possible to have thoroughly learned all the spiritual principles AA has to offer in 90 days. "Contempt prior to investigation" Stop doing that!!
Second, you seem to be taking other people's inventory, which is none of your business. You are there to get sober, and hopeful eventually help those still suffering, not discover other people's character flaws. Stop doing that!!
Thirdly, you seem to trusting some people with personal information that are untrustworthy, stop doing that!!
What should you do? Remember that this is a recover program, not your life, which you seem to get. Some of these people become addicted to addiction and recovery. I am a working professional, I have a life. That's the whole point, for me to be restored and function in my life. But I still need the meetings. I decided about 4 a week is good. I am bringing a meeting into the women's jail. It'll be a step 1-3 meeting. To keep what I've gained I have to give it away!! If I stop going to meetings, I will be susceptible to relapse.
My friends and family are still my friends and family, barring any toxic people. If I make some friends in AA, that's great, but not my goal. I have friends who love me; some of the folks at meetings don't have that anymore. AA really is all they have; so consider yourself fortunate.
Branch out and try some different groups, some with more substance. I love big book studies. I like the idea of starting your own small group, I suggest a group of women, call it a book club, do it with a few friends, and leave it off the list. Two books I recommend are "Drop the Rock," and "A women's way through the 12 steps." I get a lot out of these informal meetings.
Whatever you decide, I wish you well.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by ClearLight
It is not a behavior. It is not a behavior any more than having four fingers and a thumb is a behavior. You are someone that can not handle alcohol. That is an alcoholic. You may or may not drink alcohol but you will always be someone that can not handle it and that is an alcoholic.
.
If abusing alcohol is not a behavior then 2 + 2=5. Do you realize that you have a choice to drink every time you do it? Your brain controls that hand that raises the glass. Its a voluntary movement.
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
There are many good points here as to why one should stay with AA. I am not currently a member..but was. I would only advise that should you decide to quit going...be very careful of a seed that may have been planted...you don't go to meetings, you will drink. It's not true. Many people recover with or without AA..the success rates are no higher for AA than doing it on one's own or through alternative methods.
AA is a wonderful welcoming community when you are broken and defeated...but there are other answers. They do good work..no doubt..but they don't do ALL the work.
Just don't let the addiction use the "power of suggestion" ..(i.e. no AA and you'll get drunk)..AGAINST you. I will even quote BB here.."it's cunning and baffling".
AA is a wonderful welcoming community when you are broken and defeated...but there are other answers. They do good work..no doubt..but they don't do ALL the work.
Just don't let the addiction use the "power of suggestion" ..(i.e. no AA and you'll get drunk)..AGAINST you. I will even quote BB here.."it's cunning and baffling".
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Originally Posted by Nuudawn
the success rates are no higher for AA than doing it on one's own or through alternative methods.
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
Originally Posted by awuh1
I have to ask... the success rates for what? I hear this idea from time but the "for what" is not defined. Perhaps for "heavy drinkers" or for "problem drinkers" but not for alcoholics as defined in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous". To make such a blanket statement is to overgeneralize. If there is such a study I would love to see it.
There are many studies. I have read a tremendous amount of material on addiction and I consider myself quite well versed. If AA is your method of recovery..hallelujah. I applaud you. I applaud anyone who is successfully living their life without the use of alcohol and I am open to hearing however they did it. To tout ANYTHING as the only way is narrow minded. If its the only way for you..that is fantastic. People should be allowed to find the right way for them, that's freedom of choice. I have absolutely no issue with any method of recovery until it is presented as the only way. For if someone is not successful with AA, are they to give up and drink themselves to death? I believe in hope and choices and life.
Provide people information, but pushing one way..whether it be AA, one particular religion or drugs...is pushin' plain and simple.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
“For whom” is defined as “living a life free of alcohol”? I would have to agree. About 90+% of the people on the planet (some who drink) are without an alcohol problem, and are thus “free” of it. Perhaps you are speaking of the person who can consistently stop drinking after having ‘just a few’. Again I would have to agree. My question was in reference to those who often cannot (or never do) stop at ‘just a few’.
In questioning your assertion that “the success rates are no higher for AA than doing it on one's own or through alternative methods”, I was not advocating any specific program or method, much less asserting that there is only “1 way”. I’m sorry if you erroneously drew that conclusion. It’s a red herring.
And since you have “read a tremendous amount of material on addiction” I’m surprised that you don’t site a single study to back up your assertion. I’m afraid I’m not familiar with your academic credentials, so I hope you can forgive me for not accepting the appeal to your authority. Perhaps you can look up, and site, a few of the many studies you have read to better inform us. Then perhaps we can see what type of drinker this assertion is made for, as well to as understand what the definition of ‘success’ is for each study.
If not, I will be forced to conclude that the assertion is just what you (as well as many others) would like to believe.
In questioning your assertion that “the success rates are no higher for AA than doing it on one's own or through alternative methods”, I was not advocating any specific program or method, much less asserting that there is only “1 way”. I’m sorry if you erroneously drew that conclusion. It’s a red herring.
And since you have “read a tremendous amount of material on addiction” I’m surprised that you don’t site a single study to back up your assertion. I’m afraid I’m not familiar with your academic credentials, so I hope you can forgive me for not accepting the appeal to your authority. Perhaps you can look up, and site, a few of the many studies you have read to better inform us. Then perhaps we can see what type of drinker this assertion is made for, as well to as understand what the definition of ‘success’ is for each study.
If not, I will be forced to conclude that the assertion is just what you (as well as many others) would like to believe.
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
Originally Posted by awuh1
“For whom” is defined as “living a life free of alcohol”? I would have to agree. About 90+% of the people on the planet (some who drink) are without an alcohol problem, and are thus “free” of it. Perhaps you are speaking of the person who can consistently stop drinking after having ‘just a few’. Again I would have to agree. My question was in reference to those who often cannot (or never do) stop at ‘just a few’.
In questioning your assertion that “the success rates are no higher for AA than doing it on one's own or through alternative methods”, I was not advocating any specific program or method, much less asserting that there is only “1 way”. I’m sorry if you erroneously drew that conclusion. It’s a red herring.
And since you have “read a tremendous amount of material on addiction” I’m surprised that you don’t site a single study to back up your assertion. I’m afraid I’m not familiar with your academic credentials, so I hope you can forgive me for not accepting the appeal to your authority. Perhaps you can look up, and site, a few of the many studies you have read to better inform us. Then perhaps we can see what type of drinker this assertion is made for, as well to as understand what the definition of ‘success’ is for each study.
If not, I will be forced to conclude that the assertion is just what you (as well as many others) would like to believe.
In questioning your assertion that “the success rates are no higher for AA than doing it on one's own or through alternative methods”, I was not advocating any specific program or method, much less asserting that there is only “1 way”. I’m sorry if you erroneously drew that conclusion. It’s a red herring.
And since you have “read a tremendous amount of material on addiction” I’m surprised that you don’t site a single study to back up your assertion. I’m afraid I’m not familiar with your academic credentials, so I hope you can forgive me for not accepting the appeal to your authority. Perhaps you can look up, and site, a few of the many studies you have read to better inform us. Then perhaps we can see what type of drinker this assertion is made for, as well to as understand what the definition of ‘success’ is for each study.
If not, I will be forced to conclude that the assertion is just what you (as well as many others) would like to believe.
now's the time
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,181
I've done a lot of reading too and the information is really all over the map. One thing everything I've read seems to share is an acknowledgment that existing research is problematic. There are lots of issues of population bias and reporting concerns etc.
I have the following articles bookmarked from when I was investigating a while back; haven't checked back to see how each defines recovery but here are the links if anyone is interested. I share only because I found it helpful to get a sense of what kind of knowledge is out there, not because I'm for or against any particular method. It definitely seemed to me while I was looking into it that you can probably find both research backing and refuting pretty much any of the existing models.
One of the most frequently cited studies is Project MATCH, which shows that CBT, Motivational Enhancement Therapy, and 12 step are pretty equally effective. Project MATCH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One set of researchers though reanalyzed the data and found that most of the effectiveness could be attributed to attending only the first session rather than all the sessions, indicating that it was the desire to quit that was most important: BMC Public Health | Full text | Are alcoholism treatments effective? The Project MATCH data
There are other criticisms of MATCH too, noted on the Wikipedia page.
This lit review also found no difference between 12 step and other recovery methods, with an emphasis towards 'not sure if 12 step works': Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step programmes for alcohol dependence - The Cochrane Library - Ferri - Wiley Online Library
This lit review found AA to be better or equal to other treatment options, with an emphasis towards 'AA works': http://www.friendsofrecoveryvt.org/w...2007-study.pdf
This lit review found that only about 46% of people abstinent for five plus years had received treatment of any kind (therapy, 12 step, etc): Recovery from DSM-IV alcohol dependence: United States, 2001–2002 - Dawson - 2005 - Addiction - Wiley Online Library
(out of the 15% of the total population reviewed who stayed abstinent more than five years)
This review of two general population surveys found that about 77% of people who recovered did it without formal treatment of any kind: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00518-0056.pdf
This review puts the rate of recovery without treatment at between 10 and 42% depending on the study (abstract only): http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=...1977-23561-001
This study found that of those who did seek treatment, AA + therapy was twice as effective as therapy alone: Estimating the effect of help-seeking on achieving recovery from alcohol dependence - Dawson - 2006 - Addiction - Wiley Online Library
This 40 year study found a 58% recovery rate (not abstinence rate though), and found that for those who were diagnosed as alcohol abusers, treatment positively correlated with remission; but for those diagnosed as alcohol dependent, treatment negatively correlated with remission. I had this one bookmarked to read more thoroughly later (still haven't) because I wasn't sure about their definitions. Do Premorbid Predictors of Alcohol Dependence Also Predict the Failure to Recover From Alcoholism?
This one found that both outpatient treatment and AA predicted remission at 8 years, but that only strong family relationships or AA participation at baseline predicted positive psychosocial outcomes like satisfaction with friendships and marriage. (abstract only) Social and Community Resources and Long-Term Recovery from Treated and Untreated Alcoholism - Journal of Studies on Alcohol and Drugs
I have the following articles bookmarked from when I was investigating a while back; haven't checked back to see how each defines recovery but here are the links if anyone is interested. I share only because I found it helpful to get a sense of what kind of knowledge is out there, not because I'm for or against any particular method. It definitely seemed to me while I was looking into it that you can probably find both research backing and refuting pretty much any of the existing models.
One of the most frequently cited studies is Project MATCH, which shows that CBT, Motivational Enhancement Therapy, and 12 step are pretty equally effective. Project MATCH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One set of researchers though reanalyzed the data and found that most of the effectiveness could be attributed to attending only the first session rather than all the sessions, indicating that it was the desire to quit that was most important: BMC Public Health | Full text | Are alcoholism treatments effective? The Project MATCH data
There are other criticisms of MATCH too, noted on the Wikipedia page.
This lit review also found no difference between 12 step and other recovery methods, with an emphasis towards 'not sure if 12 step works': Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step programmes for alcohol dependence - The Cochrane Library - Ferri - Wiley Online Library
This lit review found AA to be better or equal to other treatment options, with an emphasis towards 'AA works': http://www.friendsofrecoveryvt.org/w...2007-study.pdf
This lit review found that only about 46% of people abstinent for five plus years had received treatment of any kind (therapy, 12 step, etc): Recovery from DSM-IV alcohol dependence: United States, 2001–2002 - Dawson - 2005 - Addiction - Wiley Online Library
(out of the 15% of the total population reviewed who stayed abstinent more than five years)
This review of two general population surveys found that about 77% of people who recovered did it without formal treatment of any kind: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00518-0056.pdf
This review puts the rate of recovery without treatment at between 10 and 42% depending on the study (abstract only): http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=...1977-23561-001
This study found that of those who did seek treatment, AA + therapy was twice as effective as therapy alone: Estimating the effect of help-seeking on achieving recovery from alcohol dependence - Dawson - 2006 - Addiction - Wiley Online Library
This 40 year study found a 58% recovery rate (not abstinence rate though), and found that for those who were diagnosed as alcohol abusers, treatment positively correlated with remission; but for those diagnosed as alcohol dependent, treatment negatively correlated with remission. I had this one bookmarked to read more thoroughly later (still haven't) because I wasn't sure about their definitions. Do Premorbid Predictors of Alcohol Dependence Also Predict the Failure to Recover From Alcoholism?
This one found that both outpatient treatment and AA predicted remission at 8 years, but that only strong family relationships or AA participation at baseline predicted positive psychosocial outcomes like satisfaction with friendships and marriage. (abstract only) Social and Community Resources and Long-Term Recovery from Treated and Untreated Alcoholism - Journal of Studies on Alcohol and Drugs
Last edited by fantail; 06-27-2013 at 05:06 AM. Reason: realized the last link wasn't a comparison between treatment methods; removed!
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Thanks Fantail. To say that existing literature is problematic is an understatement. There are many good studies, but it’s just not possible to accurately draw simple sweeping conclusions for a variety of “alcohol problems”.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
get and stay sober
I don't agree with everything said and preached in AA
but
I went to over proxy 2 thousand meetings in my life
so many times AA helped me to get back on a sober track
I wish to never forget how it was back when I was drinking
that's one reason I still attend meetings often
possibly to help a newcomer
and
not to forget that I can relate to where they are
as we try to get and stay sober
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