What is a 'Dry Drunk'?
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Complimenting RV GTO's post of that definition, and thanks for pointing that out Tjele,
A key section, ( definately high-lighted in my book) where the authors say;
Can be identified to some significance as "dry drunk".
A key section, ( definately high-lighted in my book) where the authors say;
Quote from 1st:edition Pge 66;
The grouch and the brainstorm were not for us. They may be the dubious luxury of normal men, but for alcoholics these things are poison.
The grouch and the brainstorm were not for us. They may be the dubious luxury of normal men, but for alcoholics these things are poison.
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If you are merely an abstinent alcoholic, and tormented by the same old restlessness, irritability and discontentedness that you were before, you aren't really recovering. And that's where the term dry drunk comes from-- someone who is exhibiting all the same behaviors as before, just not drunk.
Whether you like the term or not, the notion that simply not drinking is not enough to treat your disease is not a myth.
Whether you like the term or not, the notion that simply not drinking is not enough to treat your disease is not a myth.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SoCal CA
Posts: 1,319
Whether you like the term or not, the notion that simply not drinking is not enough to treat your disease is not a myth.
Do you think pertains to everyone Jay, or could it be different for different alcoholics?
Do you think pertains to everyone Jay, or could it be different for different alcoholics?
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by FrothyJay 
If you are merely an abstinent alcoholic, and tormented by the same old restlessness, irritability and discontentedness that you were before, you aren't really recovering. And that's where the term dry drunk comes from-- someone who is exhibiting all the same behaviors as before, just not drunk.
Whether you like the term or not, the notion that simply not drinking is not enough to treat your disease is not a myth.
Whether you like the term or not, the notion that simply not drinking is not enough to treat your disease is not a myth.
It is impossible to exhibit the same behavior when abstinent as when drunk. Simply not possible.
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 567
Ok,
Ammends.
firstly, I apologize for my previous comments on this thread, it was wrong to not "go with the flow" in the spirit of the forum.
It was wrong to make a suggestion to Supercrew opinion, that contraviened forum policy and cause moderators to delete all of the post,
To whom it may concern if you felt harmed, you may accept the amend, or you cannot, either way, I hope to have cleared my side of the street.
( My ammends sponsor said:" Can't do it wrong and I don't have to do it right, as long as I'm willing and do it, God takes care of the rest. )
"Dry Drunk", on with the show...,
A dry drunk is probably one who may have put the drink down for 30 years and still have 3 divorces until he or she has taken certain steps towards recovery. It is suggested to take the 12 Steps as outlined in the BB.
Once having decided to act on the suggestion, there are a few "musts" within this process, ( the 12 steps)
This person has now begun to make amends to harms done.
This now cannot be considered as still being a dry drunk.
Question is, why did all marriages fail after putting down the drink 30 years ago?
This is a true share, this person admits themselves, they may have put the drink down, but all that changed was, there was no more black-outs due to excessive and uncontrollable drinking, having identified as being a real alcoholic.
The defects, guilt, shame, remorse, etc etc still were apparent.
Until they took the steps with a sponsor,(30 years later) thoroughly, the personality gradually changed. This person is now back in contact with one of the ex's.
The point here is, perhaps out of the 3 definitions, "Moderate drinker", heavy drinker" and "real alcoholic", then and only then a recovered/recovering real alcoholic can "see" this, (" the dry drunk aspect"
Others cannot or may not be able to identify this subtle difference. It's sort of "exclusive" to a certain mind's eye to "see" this, only apparent in the real alcoholic.
Therefore, in conclusion, this issue of what is a dry drunk, can be split up 4 ways.
1.Definition from a non-alcoholic's point of view. (Example: Al-a-non types)
2.Definition from a moderate drinker's point of view.
3.Definition from a hard drinker's point of view.
4.Definition from a real alcoholic's point of view.
Ammends.
firstly, I apologize for my previous comments on this thread, it was wrong to not "go with the flow" in the spirit of the forum.
It was wrong to make a suggestion to Supercrew opinion, that contraviened forum policy and cause moderators to delete all of the post,
To whom it may concern if you felt harmed, you may accept the amend, or you cannot, either way, I hope to have cleared my side of the street.
( My ammends sponsor said:" Can't do it wrong and I don't have to do it right, as long as I'm willing and do it, God takes care of the rest. )
"Dry Drunk", on with the show...,
A dry drunk is probably one who may have put the drink down for 30 years and still have 3 divorces until he or she has taken certain steps towards recovery. It is suggested to take the 12 Steps as outlined in the BB.
Once having decided to act on the suggestion, there are a few "musts" within this process, ( the 12 steps)
This person has now begun to make amends to harms done.
This now cannot be considered as still being a dry drunk.
Question is, why did all marriages fail after putting down the drink 30 years ago?
This is a true share, this person admits themselves, they may have put the drink down, but all that changed was, there was no more black-outs due to excessive and uncontrollable drinking, having identified as being a real alcoholic.
The defects, guilt, shame, remorse, etc etc still were apparent.
Until they took the steps with a sponsor,(30 years later) thoroughly, the personality gradually changed. This person is now back in contact with one of the ex's.
The point here is, perhaps out of the 3 definitions, "Moderate drinker", heavy drinker" and "real alcoholic", then and only then a recovered/recovering real alcoholic can "see" this, (" the dry drunk aspect"
Others cannot or may not be able to identify this subtle difference. It's sort of "exclusive" to a certain mind's eye to "see" this, only apparent in the real alcoholic.
Therefore, in conclusion, this issue of what is a dry drunk, can be split up 4 ways.
1.Definition from a non-alcoholic's point of view. (Example: Al-a-non types)
2.Definition from a moderate drinker's point of view.
3.Definition from a hard drinker's point of view.
4.Definition from a real alcoholic's point of view.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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Posts: 1,319
No worries Pete. I apologize for getting into it with you, but you did me no harm. I also apologize if I look at threads like these as just a conversation and not a battle for my sobriety. It's easy for me to question terms like "dry drunk" or "real alcoholic", because I have chosen a different path other than the 12 steps. I used to be very sensitive to the fact that I have found that I am a "real alcoholic" as described in the BB, yet if I have a different experience as what is written in the BB, or if I feel like I am having success it is written off by some as me being either a "short timer" who will go back to drinking, or not a "real alcoholic" to begin with. I hope you see why this line of thinking used to upset me, because either I was being called a liar, or I was being told I would eventually fail.
After some introspection on my part, I really don't care if some care to label me "real" or not, and only I control whether I fail or not. So I normally come into these threads now because I enjoy the banter and they are more interesting than writing about my hobbies or my favorite recovery songs. It is obvious that not many people who post in these threads will ever truly change their opinion one way or the other. Normally you get a hardline on one side and a hardline on the other.
So I appreciate your opinion, but I can't agree because by agreeing that would mean that I am either lying or I am doomed to failure, and I know that neither of those options are correct.
I like to learn about the 12 step process and why people think it works, but I am hesitant to post any questions in the 12 step forum because many of the hardline 12 steppers have already made me aware that they don't appreciate my views in no uncertain terms. But you are the first one ever to 9th step me and I appreciate it.
Have a great night!
After some introspection on my part, I really don't care if some care to label me "real" or not, and only I control whether I fail or not. So I normally come into these threads now because I enjoy the banter and they are more interesting than writing about my hobbies or my favorite recovery songs. It is obvious that not many people who post in these threads will ever truly change their opinion one way or the other. Normally you get a hardline on one side and a hardline on the other.
So I appreciate your opinion, but I can't agree because by agreeing that would mean that I am either lying or I am doomed to failure, and I know that neither of those options are correct.
I like to learn about the 12 step process and why people think it works, but I am hesitant to post any questions in the 12 step forum because many of the hardline 12 steppers have already made me aware that they don't appreciate my views in no uncertain terms. But you are the first one ever to 9th step me and I appreciate it.
Have a great night!
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 567
I like to learn about the 12 step process and why people think it works,
That is why I made an amend, Step 10 !
This is not the first Step 10 I have done since joining this forum, I am no saint, but I do eventually get sick and tired of being sick and tired, eventually, we "get it".
Look up what Step 10 says.
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Originally Posted by JohnBarleycorn
Alcohol, being neuro-toxic, by definition, necessarily alters one's state of mind and behavior.
It is impossible to exhibit the same behavior when abstinent as when drunk. Simply not possible.
It is impossible to exhibit the same behavior when abstinent as when drunk. Simply not possible.
I was restless and irritable. I drank to alleviate that. When I stopped drinking, I was back to being restless and irritable. And hungover.
When you believe that you have a spiritual malady that is the root cause of your chronic drinking, which is what AA holds, it follows that our emotional behavior actually gets better when we drink (for a period of time). It's the comfort and solace and relief we seek. When we sober up, all that distress comes back, in spades.
Abstinence only reveals the underlying problems. It's like the tide pulling back to reveal a jagged piece of metal underneath.
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Originally Posted by Supercrew
Whether you like the term or not, the notion that simply not drinking is not enough to treat your disease is not a myth.
Do you think pertains to everyone Jay, or could it be different for different alcoholics?
Do you think pertains to everyone Jay, or could it be different for different alcoholics?
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SoCal CA
Posts: 1,319
Is it possible for someone to be a "real alcoholic" without having character defects and a spiritual malady? As I mentioned before I am not perfect, but my life is in order. I don't lie, cheat or steal or tolerate those who do. I have been happily married for over 15 years, I do charitable work in my community. I feel that I am a morally good person, I like and enjoy helping others. I have printed the steps and even read advice in the 12 step forum on how to do them (step 4), but I don't have any major resentments or bad feelings. How does it benefit me if there isn't much if anything to address?
I just really liked to drink, and I wasn't even a horrible drunk 95% of the time. I did let my drinking get out of hand and I drank all of the time,, but basically I was a happy go lucky drunk. If I was a dry drunk would I just be a guy who slurred with no worries and a smile on my face? How would I know?
I just really liked to drink, and I wasn't even a horrible drunk 95% of the time. I did let my drinking get out of hand and I drank all of the time,, but basically I was a happy go lucky drunk. If I was a dry drunk would I just be a guy who slurred with no worries and a smile on my face? How would I know?
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Originally Posted by Supercrew
Is it possible for someone to be a "real alcoholic" without having character defects and a spiritual malady? As I mentioned before I am not perfect, but my life is in order. I don't lie, cheat or steal or tolerate those who do. I have been happily married for over 15 years, I do charitable work in my community. I feel that I am a morally good person, I like and enjoy helping others. I have printed the steps and even read advice in the 12 step forum on how to do them (step 4), but I don't have any major resentments or bad feelings. How does it benefit me if there isn't much if anything to address?
I just really liked to drink, and I wasn't even a horrible drunk 95% of the time. I did let my drinking get out of hand and I drank all of the time,, but basically I was a happy go lucky drunk. If I was a dry drunk would I just be a guy who slurred with no worries and a smile on my face? How would I know?
I just really liked to drink, and I wasn't even a horrible drunk 95% of the time. I did let my drinking get out of hand and I drank all of the time,, but basically I was a happy go lucky drunk. If I was a dry drunk would I just be a guy who slurred with no worries and a smile on my face? How would I know?
Many alcoholics-- in fact, I'd say most-- look good on the outside (I'm not saying this is your case). I volunteered at a homeless shelter, was loved by my family, viewed as a solid, reliable friend, never did anything wrong. In fact, I maintained that facade, I discovered, as proof that I was not an alcoholic. I believe the disease of alcoholism is cunning and sinister enough that it allows exemplary behavior to counterbalance the guilt we feel-- to have something to point to as evidence that we're really not that bad.
Character defects are not stealing, cheating and killing (although there are certainly character defects underlying those actions). They are the selfishness, self-centeredness, dishonesty and fear (yes, fear) that drive our behavior. They are as much the lies we tell ourselves as they are the lies we tell others. I found, more often than not, that they were patterns of self-deception, self-promotion and self-centered fear that I was completely unable to identify before I did the steps.
I did not believe I had any character defects to address when I first considered the steps. Problem was, I kept drinking. Over and over. Once I had 11 years sober, once a year, once a month. In between, all looked shiny and happy- hell, I even felt good. But I always returned to it, and it was always worse than before.
I was beaten into a state of readiness.
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First of all I listen to the MP3 by Paul F and he was a "real alcoholic" as described in the BB, and he said his spirtual awakening was no longer having the mental obsession to drink. That seems like a mental change and not a spiritual one IMO. And i have had that happen.
Second you say you were happily sober for 11 years, "you even felt good", yet you relapsed. So for 11 years you didn't have the obsession to drink, and you were happy, but you don't consider that successful because you went back out, either because you forgot, or you had a slip in judgement, or you decided that maybe you could handle it? So now the only way is the 12 steps?
Sorry that sounds like a human error and not a spiritual one. If I were to start drinking again I would consider it bad judgement and even a lapse in my morality, but it would have probably just seemed like a good idea at the time.
You obviously had the tools to stay sober, you just quit using them.
But thanks for the honest answer.
Second you say you were happily sober for 11 years, "you even felt good", yet you relapsed. So for 11 years you didn't have the obsession to drink, and you were happy, but you don't consider that successful because you went back out, either because you forgot, or you had a slip in judgement, or you decided that maybe you could handle it? So now the only way is the 12 steps?
Sorry that sounds like a human error and not a spiritual one. If I were to start drinking again I would consider it bad judgement and even a lapse in my morality, but it would have probably just seemed like a good idea at the time.
You obviously had the tools to stay sober, you just quit using them.
But thanks for the honest answer.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SoCal CA
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Yes, because I think that Jay was being honest in his mind.
Just like I believe you and your experiences. I can't judge people's perceptions of what has happened to them or why they do or did certain things. I believe everyone here is being honest in their own mind just like me.
From what I have found from posting here is although we may disagree, no one is trying to be dishonest, and normally we just perceive things different ways. It is easy to get heated about what we think is bad information, but normally the person giving the information perceives it to be honest and correct.
So yes I am.
Just like I believe you and your experiences. I can't judge people's perceptions of what has happened to them or why they do or did certain things. I believe everyone here is being honest in their own mind just like me.
From what I have found from posting here is although we may disagree, no one is trying to be dishonest, and normally we just perceive things different ways. It is easy to get heated about what we think is bad information, but normally the person giving the information perceives it to be honest and correct.
So yes I am.
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Ok, so if you are honest after listening to a Paul F MP3, he would have asked the question, a clear cut question based on the facts from the BB,
either you are or are not a real alcoholic.
So according to Paul F, ( and he is simply carrying the message,
don't blame him, ask his sponsor, who ever it is... ) you would have been confronted with 3 options to identify from.
1. Moderate Drinker
2. Hard drinker
3. Real Alcoholic
If you know which one of those 3 you identify with, then I am certain the question of a "dry drunk" cannot really go much further.
either you are or are not a real alcoholic.
So according to Paul F, ( and he is simply carrying the message,
don't blame him, ask his sponsor, who ever it is... ) you would have been confronted with 3 options to identify from.
1. Moderate Drinker
2. Hard drinker
3. Real Alcoholic
If you know which one of those 3 you identify with, then I am certain the question of a "dry drunk" cannot really go much further.
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Posts: 1,319
I already answered the question for you Pete. I read the BB description, and I listened to Paul F, and as i told you before I am a "real alcoholic". I craving booze as soon as it touches my lips, and I can never get enough in my system. I always drink faster and more than everyone I am with, basically I have the physical allergy the Dr. Silkworth described.
I am not sure what your other sentence regarding the dry drunk means.
I am not sure what your other sentence regarding the dry drunk means.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 581
Originally Posted by Supercrew
First of all I listen to the MP3 by Paul F and he was a "real alcoholic" as described in the BB, and he said his spirtual awakening was no longer having the mental obsession to drink. That seems like a mental change and not a spiritual one IMO. And i have had that happen.
Second you say you were happily sober for 11 years, "you even felt good", yet you relapsed. So for 11 years you didn't have the obsession to drink, and you were happy, but you don't consider that successful because you went back out, either because you forgot, or you had a slip in judgement, or you decided that maybe you could handle it? So now the only way is the 12 steps?
Sorry that sounds like a human error and not a spiritual one. If I were to start drinking again I would consider it bad judgement and even a lapse in my morality, but it would have probably just seemed like a good idea at the time.
You obviously had the tools to stay sober, you just quit using them.
But thanks for the honest answer.
Second you say you were happily sober for 11 years, "you even felt good", yet you relapsed. So for 11 years you didn't have the obsession to drink, and you were happy, but you don't consider that successful because you went back out, either because you forgot, or you had a slip in judgement, or you decided that maybe you could handle it? So now the only way is the 12 steps?
Sorry that sounds like a human error and not a spiritual one. If I were to start drinking again I would consider it bad judgement and even a lapse in my morality, but it would have probably just seemed like a good idea at the time.
You obviously had the tools to stay sober, you just quit using them.
But thanks for the honest answer.
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