No, really I didn't...
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No, really I didn't...
....do the best I could.
"I did the best I could at the time." This is one program adage that I've always really had a problem with -- especially when it's applied universally and indiscriminately. And it's one that I've always strongly resisted applying to myself in the majority of situations. Sure, there have been times when I really didn't have the knowledge I needed to do better and, even though what I did at the time might not have been good or right or effective, it truly was the best I could do at that time.
But, far more often then not, the truth is that, when I've made "mistakes," I've made them because I wasn't willing to accept something that I had every opportunity to "know" was the truth and/or reality; or I had enough knowledge to at least have a good idea that I needed to know more, but I chose to act (or not to act) without getting that additional knowledge; and/or I knew perfectly well that a certain action/behavior was somehow less than ideal, and I did it anyway out of fear and/or laziness and/or selfishness.
So, anyways, for me personally, it's always been very important not to justify or excuse these kinds of things with the "I did the best I could" line, because, no, really, I didn't.
Well, last week for the first time this came up with a sponsee. She's a relatively new sponsee who was actually referred to me by her AA sponsor. She's only been sober ~18 months and it's pretty clear that a lot of her core issues are Al Anon issues, so she and her AA sponsor agreed that she would start working an Al Anon program. It's a pretty challenging situation for me to begin with because she is very, very different from me in terms of her background and her life experience, but the reason I agreed to try working with her is because she is amazingly willing and "leadership receptive," which, to me, is the very most important thing when it comes to "getting" any kind of 12 Step work.
Anyways, last week we were talking about some pretty major issues, and she got very, very overwhelmed with guilt....and finally she said: "You know how they always tell you "You did the best you could? Well, that's b*llsh*t. I did not do the best I could...I was stoned and I was selfish and there is no way that was the best I could do....and there's no excuse for it and I can't pretend there is."
I was a little taken aback, because, really, she's absolutely right, and although I definitely had the sense that that was not the "program approved" thing for me to say, I sure as h*ll was not going to lie to her. So, what I said was:
"You know, I think we all know in our hearts when we've done the best we could and when we haven't. And you're right, there are people who give themselves a free pass for a lot of stuff with that "I did the best I could" line. But, this is about you and what you know about yourself, and the thing you have to focus on is doing better in the future. Guilt is a totally useless, self-indulgent feeling, and if you go there you end up thinking that nothing can be OK unless you can change the past. And that's a total trap -- because the past will never change. I know for a fact that there have been times in the past when I did not do the best I could for whatever reason, and there's nothing I can do to change that now. But I can change the chances of my doing it again in the future, and, even if I hurt people, I can live a life that shows them that, no matter what happened to them in the past, they can get past it and grow through it and have a good life. We do not have to let our past control our future."
So, anyway, if there are other people out there who don't buy the "I did the best I could" line indiscriminately, what has your experience been working with other people around these kinds of issues? How do you handle it when it comes up? How do you you go about diffusing the guilt without excusing the behaviors? etc....etc....etc.....
freya
"I did the best I could at the time." This is one program adage that I've always really had a problem with -- especially when it's applied universally and indiscriminately. And it's one that I've always strongly resisted applying to myself in the majority of situations. Sure, there have been times when I really didn't have the knowledge I needed to do better and, even though what I did at the time might not have been good or right or effective, it truly was the best I could do at that time.
But, far more often then not, the truth is that, when I've made "mistakes," I've made them because I wasn't willing to accept something that I had every opportunity to "know" was the truth and/or reality; or I had enough knowledge to at least have a good idea that I needed to know more, but I chose to act (or not to act) without getting that additional knowledge; and/or I knew perfectly well that a certain action/behavior was somehow less than ideal, and I did it anyway out of fear and/or laziness and/or selfishness.
So, anyways, for me personally, it's always been very important not to justify or excuse these kinds of things with the "I did the best I could" line, because, no, really, I didn't.
Well, last week for the first time this came up with a sponsee. She's a relatively new sponsee who was actually referred to me by her AA sponsor. She's only been sober ~18 months and it's pretty clear that a lot of her core issues are Al Anon issues, so she and her AA sponsor agreed that she would start working an Al Anon program. It's a pretty challenging situation for me to begin with because she is very, very different from me in terms of her background and her life experience, but the reason I agreed to try working with her is because she is amazingly willing and "leadership receptive," which, to me, is the very most important thing when it comes to "getting" any kind of 12 Step work.
Anyways, last week we were talking about some pretty major issues, and she got very, very overwhelmed with guilt....and finally she said: "You know how they always tell you "You did the best you could? Well, that's b*llsh*t. I did not do the best I could...I was stoned and I was selfish and there is no way that was the best I could do....and there's no excuse for it and I can't pretend there is."
I was a little taken aback, because, really, she's absolutely right, and although I definitely had the sense that that was not the "program approved" thing for me to say, I sure as h*ll was not going to lie to her. So, what I said was:
"You know, I think we all know in our hearts when we've done the best we could and when we haven't. And you're right, there are people who give themselves a free pass for a lot of stuff with that "I did the best I could" line. But, this is about you and what you know about yourself, and the thing you have to focus on is doing better in the future. Guilt is a totally useless, self-indulgent feeling, and if you go there you end up thinking that nothing can be OK unless you can change the past. And that's a total trap -- because the past will never change. I know for a fact that there have been times in the past when I did not do the best I could for whatever reason, and there's nothing I can do to change that now. But I can change the chances of my doing it again in the future, and, even if I hurt people, I can live a life that shows them that, no matter what happened to them in the past, they can get past it and grow through it and have a good life. We do not have to let our past control our future."
So, anyway, if there are other people out there who don't buy the "I did the best I could" line indiscriminately, what has your experience been working with other people around these kinds of issues? How do you handle it when it comes up? How do you you go about diffusing the guilt without excusing the behaviors? etc....etc....etc.....
freya
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That was a good post freya. It shows that you really hold everyone to a high standard because you believe in them. I know to defend my actions I've said "I'm doing the best I can", but if I keep on doing those same actions it starts looking like an excuse. Now, I just don't say it.
Unfortunately, some people's best won't be enough. Some people are just motivated more than others. And although you're right we shouldn't let our past control our future, some people are just better at getting over past events and not letting their emotions get the better of them.
I know we're talking about recovery but it reminds me of when a kid gets, say, a C in a class or on an exam and says he did the best he could, but his parents say.. "no you didn't..you can do better". But thats why we have grades in the first place. I mean, some people are just better than others. Not everyone can get an A+ in physics...not everyone can in recovery either.
Unfortunately, some people's best won't be enough. Some people are just motivated more than others. And although you're right we shouldn't let our past control our future, some people are just better at getting over past events and not letting their emotions get the better of them.
I know we're talking about recovery but it reminds me of when a kid gets, say, a C in a class or on an exam and says he did the best he could, but his parents say.. "no you didn't..you can do better". But thats why we have grades in the first place. I mean, some people are just better than others. Not everyone can get an A+ in physics...not everyone can in recovery either.
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It seems to me that people use that line more as a coping mechanism for the guilt and shame they inevitably know will ensue if they have nothing else to rely on. I believe that most people know that they could've done better but for whatever reason they did not. The reason for why they did not is where the answer lies. That is where the self discovery is to be had. I think the behaviors need to be excused rather than revisited so as to avoid the possibility of more shame and guilt. The person should look forward to greater effort in their endeavors based on what they have learned from looking into the reasons for not doing better than they could have. People should realize the times when the pressure is on and say to themselves, "I've been here before." Perhaps then they can gain perspective and allow for something positive to happen. This way is just one way. But it could be THE way for many who struggle with their recovery because of shame and guilt. Self forgiveness is a powerful thing.
Thanks Freya.
Thanks Freya.
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I know we're talking about recovery but it reminds me of when a kid gets, say, a C in a class or on an exam and says he did the best he could, but his parents say.. "no you didn't..you can do better". But thats why we have grades in the first place. I mean, some people are just better than others. Not everyone can get an A+ in physics...not everyone can in recovery either.
I think anyone can recover - and I've yet to see anyone who has lead me to doubt that assertion.
Some people take longer to reach that point, and some never do, but it's not a question of competence or talent. The first and fundamental plank is...don't use.
You're right in that motivation is involved... but if we're lucky we all find that...if not before, we find it when we've drank and drugged to 'enough' and haven't killed ourselves or damaged ourselves beyond repair.
I have intelligence and stubborness and foresight...and all the things you would think would be a help...but I was a D student in recovery for many years, because what I really wanted was to be an A student in the 'drinking normally' class, or later, I wanted a 'special credit' for finding my own special solution.
It was only when I realised, finally, that these two things weren't possible, I gave my all to recovery....and had success
D
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From my perspective, taken literally “I did the best I could at the time” sets too high of a standard. There are so many variables that come into play. My mental, physical, and spiritual state. Competing priorities, time contraints. Knowledge or lack thereof – out of necessity making decisions & taking actions with limited information. Skills. Character defects. Fear.
And how can I assess if I did my absolute best given the circumstances? It seems like I rarely do but I really have to take care to acknowledge that I am making an honest effort and not striving for perfection.
I got into the dangerous habit of reviewing my day and only really looking at when I was resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid. Humiliating myself, feeling like a bad person falling well short of some ideal (what or who's ideal, I don’t know). However taking a step back and looking at the totality of the day, I see mostly good stuff! The best I could? Probably not. But a good father, husband, employee, and friend? A kind and responsible person? Definitely. And hey! I've been sober for 16 months!
I don’t think I can really say if someone else is doing their best. I’m sure some people use it as a cop out but who am I to say? "To thine own self be true" seems to be the best response.
BB quote from the 1st edition of the BB.
And how can I assess if I did my absolute best given the circumstances? It seems like I rarely do but I really have to take care to acknowledge that I am making an honest effort and not striving for perfection.
When we retire at night, we constructively review our day. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid? Do we owe an apology? Have we kept something to ourselves which should be discussed with another person at once? Were we kind and loving toward all? What could we have done better? Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life? But we must be careful not to drift into worry, remorse or morbid reflection, for that would diminish our usefulness to others. After making our review we ask God’s forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures should be taken.
I don’t think I can really say if someone else is doing their best. I’m sure some people use it as a cop out but who am I to say? "To thine own self be true" seems to be the best response.
BB quote from the 1st edition of the BB.
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Hi Freya,
That's an interesting post, and I have thought a lot about the three years when I was drinking and things I did. I am a firm believer in what Maya Angelou said "You did then what you knew how to do and when you knew better... you did better!"
There were times when my 'best' wasn't very good, and even times when my 'best' was dismal. But it was absolutely the best I could do, at the time. I am a work in progress, there is no doubt about that.
That's an interesting post, and I have thought a lot about the three years when I was drinking and things I did. I am a firm believer in what Maya Angelou said "You did then what you knew how to do and when you knew better... you did better!"
There were times when my 'best' wasn't very good, and even times when my 'best' was dismal. But it was absolutely the best I could do, at the time. I am a work in progress, there is no doubt about that.
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Originally Posted by freya 
So, anyway, if there are other people out there who don't buy the "I did the best I could" line indiscriminately, what has your experience been working with other people around these kinds of issues? How do you handle it when it comes up? How do you you go about diffusing the guilt without excusing the behaviors? etc....etc....etc.....freya
Good thread!! Thanks for starting it!!
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I want to be clear that it is not my intention here -- or in RL -- to try to judge whether or not anyone else "did the best he/she could" or not or even whether or not, when someone else says that, if that person is being honest with him/herself and with me or is in denial.
My point is that, for myself, I know that it is not true that, at every time in the past when I made a mistake or did not do the right thing, I was doing the doing the best I could. Sometimes I was and sometimes I wasn't, and I got into the details of how I know the difference between those 2 things for myself above, so I'm not gonna go over it again.
My sponsee clearly knows the same about some of her past behavior, but, in her case, this knowledge is causing her to carry a lot of guilt. Although I do understand guilt intellectually, it's hard for me to relate emotionally/experientially because, as I've discussed elsewhere, shame and guilt are not really feelings I tend to go to myself, and they seem very, very self-defeating and dangerous to me. And it's pretty obvious with my sponsee that they are also dangerous for her and tend to lead her to paralysis and depression.
So, I guess what would really be helpful for me here is to maybe hear about people's experiences in situations where you knew you didn't do the best you could but were able to turn that into a learning opportunity for yourself rather than a guilt trip.
Since I don't have much experience with feeling/dealing with guilt myself, my gut reaction is "Well, just don't waste your time feeling guilty about it!" But I do know that it's not that easy for someone who is used to going to guilt when she has to face the fact that she did something "wrong."
freya
My point is that, for myself, I know that it is not true that, at every time in the past when I made a mistake or did not do the right thing, I was doing the doing the best I could. Sometimes I was and sometimes I wasn't, and I got into the details of how I know the difference between those 2 things for myself above, so I'm not gonna go over it again.
My sponsee clearly knows the same about some of her past behavior, but, in her case, this knowledge is causing her to carry a lot of guilt. Although I do understand guilt intellectually, it's hard for me to relate emotionally/experientially because, as I've discussed elsewhere, shame and guilt are not really feelings I tend to go to myself, and they seem very, very self-defeating and dangerous to me. And it's pretty obvious with my sponsee that they are also dangerous for her and tend to lead her to paralysis and depression.
So, I guess what would really be helpful for me here is to maybe hear about people's experiences in situations where you knew you didn't do the best you could but were able to turn that into a learning opportunity for yourself rather than a guilt trip.
Since I don't have much experience with feeling/dealing with guilt myself, my gut reaction is "Well, just don't waste your time feeling guilty about it!" But I do know that it's not that easy for someone who is used to going to guilt when she has to face the fact that she did something "wrong."
freya
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Originally Posted by freya
So, I guess what would really be helpful for me here is to maybe hear about people's experiences in situations where you knew you didn't do the best you could but were able to turn that into a learning opportunity for yourself rather than a guilt trip.
Honestly, at the time I'm doing something negative I'm not aware of it until after the fact, like dealing with relapse. Every time I've relapsed it was an attempt to make the hopeless feelings and the occasional suicidal thoughts go away.
Only by reflection can I see the damage done…fully realizing that drinking is a temporary solution to a serious and long term problem.
That’s why I’ve finally been able to pull myself out of the denial I had in regards to the status of my mental health. I had no problem admitting my addiction to alcohol, but a part of me naively believed that by sheer will alone I could pull myself out of my mental funk. Nope. I need help and finally I’m getting it.
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Originally Posted by freya
My sponsee clearly knows the same about some of her past behavior, but, in her case, this knowledge is causing her to carry a lot of guilt. Although I do understand guilt intellectually, it's hard for me to relate emotionally/experientially because, as I've discussed elsewhere, shame and guilt are not really feelings I tend to go to myself, and they seem very, very self-defeating and dangerous to me. And it's pretty obvious with my sponsee that they are also dangerous for her and tend to lead her to paralysis and depression.
...
Since I don't have much experience with feeling/dealing with guilt myself, my gut reaction is "Well, just don't waste your time feeling guilty about it!" But I do know that it's not that easy for someone who is used to going to guilt when she has to face the fact that she did something "wrong."
freya
...
Since I don't have much experience with feeling/dealing with guilt myself, my gut reaction is "Well, just don't waste your time feeling guilty about it!" But I do know that it's not that easy for someone who is used to going to guilt when she has to face the fact that she did something "wrong."
freya
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Originally Posted by freya
So, I guess what would really be helpful for me here is to maybe hear about people's experiences in situations where you knew you didn't do the best you could but were able to turn that into a learning opportunity for yourself rather than a guilt trip.freya
Times that i don't do my best is because i am too focused on what i want to get out of the situation. i'm not concerned about letting it be whatever it is supposed to be, because i'm using every ounce of energy to control and manipulate everything so that it will go my way. i am looking for a specific result and am oblivious to anything else that is taking place. It usually isn't until my conscious gives me a heads up, my sponsor helps me to see the exact nature, or someone else pulls me up on it that i stop going in that direction. Learning to stop and staying stopped is God's way of helping me learn how to live without self obsession. Going in a new direction is what happens when i become aware that i really don't want to live that way anymore and put that into action. A state of genuine acceptance and complete surrender does not come overnight, in a month, a year, etc.. When i am too hard on myself, i ignore the hope that is always available to me. i've come to realize that excessive guilt and shame are just twisted forms of pride that result in a lack of faith in God and in myself. i'm in a process of finding my place in this world and i can't do that if i'm too busy disqualifying myself from living the kind of life that i really want to live. Sometimes, i feel that i'm learning some very hard lessons, but then i remind myself that i've lived a very hard life. When i reapply those spiritual principle that have given me a true sense of freedom, i know that i am right where i am supposed to be. When i find value in myself, to God, and to others; it helps me to leave behind any attitude that makes self defeat or self destruction look attractive. i don't use no matter what and keep it moving forward because that's what God's will is for me and doing that teachs me H.O.W. to be "Me". No fear, no doubt, no self pity!!!
Last edited by Wolfchild; 04-19-2009 at 08:31 AM.
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When I look back on past memories, when I feel I "let " people or myself down. I choose not to feel guilty because that gets me no where. When I really look at it, I was choosing to drink instead of doing the "right " thing.
Every time I chose to drink over lets say..... really interacting with my kids. I was not happy with my choice deep down. I knew I could do better and I was like your sponsee said, I was being selfish. I guess I got to the point that I knew I could do better in my life , and I was tired of waking up in the morning ashamed of yet again being so selfish.
Maybe that was the "bottom" for me. I was tired of excusing myself from my responsibilities that I knew i could take care of.
It is very freeing for me to require more of myself!
I feel like I am growing and changing and that makes me excited about life!
thanks for listening
jules67
Every time I chose to drink over lets say..... really interacting with my kids. I was not happy with my choice deep down. I knew I could do better and I was like your sponsee said, I was being selfish. I guess I got to the point that I knew I could do better in my life , and I was tired of waking up in the morning ashamed of yet again being so selfish.
Maybe that was the "bottom" for me. I was tired of excusing myself from my responsibilities that I knew i could take care of.
It is very freeing for me to require more of myself!
I feel like I am growing and changing and that makes me excited about life!
thanks for listening
jules67
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Originally Posted by sfgirl
I think a lot of it has to do with what a lot of the steps include.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
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Originally Posted by freya
So, I guess what would really be helpful for me here is to maybe hear about people's experiences in situations where you knew you didn't do the best you could but were able to turn that into a learning opportunity for yourself rather than a guilt trip.
Since I don't have much experience with feeling/dealing with guilt myself, my gut reaction is "Well, just don't waste your time feeling guilty about it!" But I do know that it's not that easy for someone who is used to going to guilt when she has to face the fact that she did something "wrong."
freya
Since I don't have much experience with feeling/dealing with guilt myself, my gut reaction is "Well, just don't waste your time feeling guilty about it!" But I do know that it's not that easy for someone who is used to going to guilt when she has to face the fact that she did something "wrong."
freya
Right off the bat I see retrospective judgment at play. Oh sure to look back and to come to some understanding as to why I did what I did in the hope of reliving some guilt...if it is guilt I'm experiencing. That statement works for me. But what if I'm trying not to judge my past? Then doing the 'best I could' keeps me stuck in the never ending 'could of' 'should of' 'would of' world of wonderment. How about I cognitively re-frame it as: I did what I knew to do at the time. Then right or wrong gets edged out over what my capabilities were at the time. Understanding that my knowledge was limited for whatever reason at the time opens me up to the possibility that I can learn better now. Not like trapping myself in the past when my faulty judgment has become some sort of final word because I evaluated my past performance and found it lacking.
Or so I see it
...great discussion topic Freya and for everybody that contribuated to it...thanks for your insight. 
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This is a topic I struggle with a lot, and I'm in the thick of it right now. For what it's worth, I've been fighting for sobriety over the past year, but I am on day 2 again, so take what I have to say with a huge grain of salt. But I am trying, and feel I am beginning to understand the true nature of recovery by considering many of these issues.
My parents did they best they could do. Their parents did they best they could do. By most measures I can think of, I lead an idyllic life, and the one my parents (and their parents) planned for me, and dreamed of themselves. Quite literally, I could have done anything.
I, however, had no appreciation for this life, nor any of its gifts. My drinking wasn't/isn't social excess - it was/is a not-too-well-thought-out slow self destruction. Somehow it got into my mind that alcohol would make each day better, or at least a little less painful. And in making that first decision and consciously choosing to hide it, I made a Big Mistake.
Being honest with myself, in my situation I can't call that coming anywhere near close to doing the best I could do. In fact, it was quite possibly the opposite: the worst I could do, going against all the principles I was taught growing up. And there is a lot of guilt and shame in knowing that. For me, turning that guilt into a lesson learned is not easy. Moreover, guilt is a big trigger for me, and has led to relapse.
Perhaps more importantly, however, the guilt is also a driver for recovery. It is a wretched, bottomless feeling - one of the worst I know. But I also know it will deepen if I let my problem continue, and that's something I really don't want to deal with. I won't let my Big Mistake to turn into a Bigger Mistake.
For me, reducing the pain of guilt comes with time, positive action, and fostering a sense of hope. There are many layers of guilt, and they can't all be dealt with at once. I believe the immediate guilt associated with using or a relapse will only go away if you're sober for a period of time. Without removing that guilt, you can't get at the deeper layers. The longer term guilt, which it sounds like your sponsee is working through, I hope and believe can be turned into something positive through action, through making the world just a little better each day. And finally, hope: guilt is looking backwards; hope is looking forwards. We can't predict the future, and are often terrified by it, but we need to slowly build hope and faith that it will be ok, even if we can only live for today.
As my parents taught me, everyone makes mistakes. But they also taught me to right your wrongs. For me, that will mean simply staying sober for now. Later on, righting my wrongs will involve focus on others instead of myself. Maybe not the potential to do anything like it used to be, but enough to make a difference. And I can live with that as a lesson learned.
If any of you made it this far I congratulate you
. I think it was more than a bit therapeutic for myself to write this down, and hopefully there may be some nuggets that help you with your sponsee, freya.
Red
My parents did they best they could do. Their parents did they best they could do. By most measures I can think of, I lead an idyllic life, and the one my parents (and their parents) planned for me, and dreamed of themselves. Quite literally, I could have done anything.
I, however, had no appreciation for this life, nor any of its gifts. My drinking wasn't/isn't social excess - it was/is a not-too-well-thought-out slow self destruction. Somehow it got into my mind that alcohol would make each day better, or at least a little less painful. And in making that first decision and consciously choosing to hide it, I made a Big Mistake.
Being honest with myself, in my situation I can't call that coming anywhere near close to doing the best I could do. In fact, it was quite possibly the opposite: the worst I could do, going against all the principles I was taught growing up. And there is a lot of guilt and shame in knowing that. For me, turning that guilt into a lesson learned is not easy. Moreover, guilt is a big trigger for me, and has led to relapse.
Perhaps more importantly, however, the guilt is also a driver for recovery. It is a wretched, bottomless feeling - one of the worst I know. But I also know it will deepen if I let my problem continue, and that's something I really don't want to deal with. I won't let my Big Mistake to turn into a Bigger Mistake.
For me, reducing the pain of guilt comes with time, positive action, and fostering a sense of hope. There are many layers of guilt, and they can't all be dealt with at once. I believe the immediate guilt associated with using or a relapse will only go away if you're sober for a period of time. Without removing that guilt, you can't get at the deeper layers. The longer term guilt, which it sounds like your sponsee is working through, I hope and believe can be turned into something positive through action, through making the world just a little better each day. And finally, hope: guilt is looking backwards; hope is looking forwards. We can't predict the future, and are often terrified by it, but we need to slowly build hope and faith that it will be ok, even if we can only live for today.
As my parents taught me, everyone makes mistakes. But they also taught me to right your wrongs. For me, that will mean simply staying sober for now. Later on, righting my wrongs will involve focus on others instead of myself. Maybe not the potential to do anything like it used to be, but enough to make a difference. And I can live with that as a lesson learned.
If any of you made it this far I congratulate you
. I think it was more than a bit therapeutic for myself to write this down, and hopefully there may be some nuggets that help you with your sponsee, freya.Red
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This is a very good thread.
I do not have substance abuse issues personally, and agree with some of the thoughts about how "not doing one's best" can seem like an excuse and/or cop-out.
First I think there are two categories here.
Not doing your best and how you view yourself as a result.
Not doing your best and how you make others feel and then feeling badly about yourself.
If you are an adult and in graduate school which you are paying for yourself and you don't study as much as you needed to and don't do well enough on a test -- you may not have done your best but you also don't have to feel guilty.
No matter how smart me are not every one is interested in being an A student. There may be other skills ie - people skills that in the end will be more rewarding in the work force to your employer. You may land a better job than your friend with the A average. Accept your strengths and weaknesses and let yourself off the hook.
Some one's issues as an addict can lead to great personal growth. This may make them a very "valuable" asset to society because they learned skills in recovery that some "regular" people will never achieve.
In terms of others:
This I am actively dealing with the A who is in my life. I don't actually want or need very much and it would alleviate their guilt.
Keep it Simple.
How about "I'm sorry".
How about an explanation.
How about not continuing those behaviors going forward.
If your sponsee can apologize with feeling it goes a long way.
Does it correct past wrongs? No.
Will everyone "forgive" her? No.
.
Will she know that right now she is doing her best? Yes.
Freya -- I hope that helps. I enjoy your posts. they are always very thoughtful.
I do not have substance abuse issues personally, and agree with some of the thoughts about how "not doing one's best" can seem like an excuse and/or cop-out.
First I think there are two categories here.
Not doing your best and how you view yourself as a result.
Not doing your best and how you make others feel and then feeling badly about yourself.
If you are an adult and in graduate school which you are paying for yourself and you don't study as much as you needed to and don't do well enough on a test -- you may not have done your best but you also don't have to feel guilty.
No matter how smart me are not every one is interested in being an A student. There may be other skills ie - people skills that in the end will be more rewarding in the work force to your employer. You may land a better job than your friend with the A average. Accept your strengths and weaknesses and let yourself off the hook.
Some one's issues as an addict can lead to great personal growth. This may make them a very "valuable" asset to society because they learned skills in recovery that some "regular" people will never achieve.
In terms of others:
This I am actively dealing with the A who is in my life. I don't actually want or need very much and it would alleviate their guilt.
Keep it Simple.
How about "I'm sorry".
How about an explanation.
How about not continuing those behaviors going forward.
If your sponsee can apologize with feeling it goes a long way.
Does it correct past wrongs? No.
Will everyone "forgive" her? No.
.
Will she know that right now she is doing her best? Yes.
Freya -- I hope that helps. I enjoy your posts. they are always very thoughtful.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Thanks for all of the great, well thought-out posts!
Bottom line is that people are pretty much saying what I already know and am already trying to get her to focus on: the future and making amends and doing better in the future.
I think I just want to be sure that there's not something I'm missing/forgetting/ignoring whatever.
The truth is that my relationship with this person has been very, very challenging for me from the beginning....but, at the same time, it also feels very much HP driven. Also, because of how very different she is from me, I somehow feel like my being able to help her is more of a challenge...and so it's like I'm constantly on the brink of feeling inadequate to the task and like I just don't know what the h*ll I'm doing. And those are feelings that are just very unusual for me.
...and then I read this thread and I think "just keep going forward and trust the program and HP!"...It's so friggin' simple!!!! But somehow with this person I just very easliy go to that place of "there must be something more." And that's just silly because I "know" that the prgram is enough for anyone, wherever they're at.
So, I guess, really, I need to frame all of this more as a "test" of my trust in HP, because I most certainly am, in some sense, inadequate to the task...but HP is not.....and if I can just keep focused on that and on being connected to HP, instead of ruminating in an ego-centered way on trying to figure out rationally what "I should" be doing, everything will be the way it needs to be....
...and, of course, I'll also be doing the best I can!!!!!! Convenient how that works, isn't it?????
freya
Bottom line is that people are pretty much saying what I already know and am already trying to get her to focus on: the future and making amends and doing better in the future.
I think I just want to be sure that there's not something I'm missing/forgetting/ignoring whatever.
The truth is that my relationship with this person has been very, very challenging for me from the beginning....but, at the same time, it also feels very much HP driven. Also, because of how very different she is from me, I somehow feel like my being able to help her is more of a challenge...and so it's like I'm constantly on the brink of feeling inadequate to the task and like I just don't know what the h*ll I'm doing. And those are feelings that are just very unusual for me.
...and then I read this thread and I think "just keep going forward and trust the program and HP!"...It's so friggin' simple!!!! But somehow with this person I just very easliy go to that place of "there must be something more." And that's just silly because I "know" that the prgram is enough for anyone, wherever they're at.
So, I guess, really, I need to frame all of this more as a "test" of my trust in HP, because I most certainly am, in some sense, inadequate to the task...but HP is not.....and if I can just keep focused on that and on being connected to HP, instead of ruminating in an ego-centered way on trying to figure out rationally what "I should" be doing, everything will be the way it needs to be....
...and, of course, I'll also be doing the best I can!!!!!! Convenient how that works, isn't it?????
freya
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 273
This topic has been stuck in my brain for days.
I think it is an important question/statement. I do think we are all responsible for letting ourselves off the hook sometimes when we shouldn't.
Another worthwhile discussion for the two of you to have might be the difference between a "reason" and an "excuse".
A reason helps one understand a situation and how it came about. One can still accept full responsibility for one's actions and explain the reason. In fact, I would go farther and say if you don't know the "why" behind something taking responsibility for one's actions is not enough.
An excuse, in my opinion, is a reason that absolves one of taking responsibility for one's actions.
I personally struggle with this issue as to how it relates to one's HP. Where is the line between trusting and giving one's issues over to one's HP and raising a hand and saying "It is my fault" "I acted alone and was wrong".
I do believe it is important to let go of the destructive guilt. It can be inhibit growth. Here is a good example that you may want to share with your sponsee.
I get very car sick. When I was a child I threw up all over the family car on every trip. My parents would yell at me. Why do you do this? What is wrong with you? Why can't you stop? Did anybody think to give me a bag? No, I was just supposed "change". I hated being yelled at and always thought if I give it one more minute maybe it will go away. Maybe I can will it away. I never could. I always threw up. I always felt guilty and ashamed. It never changed my behavior.
My children were also motion sensitive. This is what I told them starting at the age of 2. There is no shame in getting car sick. It is out of your control. Here is a bag, hold it in your lap. If you feel sick use the bag. As they got older I included, there is no shame in getting sick, there is shame in not speaking up and using the bag.
They both threw up all the time. They never missed the bag. They never felt badly about it. They rarely get carsick any more. I still throw up but I don't miss the bag, I have one in every purse.
Guilt is not an effective method for behavioral change. Tools are good methods for behavioral changes.
I find that in my own work analogies have a way of really putting things in perspective. Maybe the above would be a good one to use with your sponsee.
You can discuss how figuring out the reason as to why she didn't do her best can be helpful but holding on to the guilt about it, is not.
I think it is an important question/statement. I do think we are all responsible for letting ourselves off the hook sometimes when we shouldn't.
Another worthwhile discussion for the two of you to have might be the difference between a "reason" and an "excuse".
A reason helps one understand a situation and how it came about. One can still accept full responsibility for one's actions and explain the reason. In fact, I would go farther and say if you don't know the "why" behind something taking responsibility for one's actions is not enough.
An excuse, in my opinion, is a reason that absolves one of taking responsibility for one's actions.
I personally struggle with this issue as to how it relates to one's HP. Where is the line between trusting and giving one's issues over to one's HP and raising a hand and saying "It is my fault" "I acted alone and was wrong".
I do believe it is important to let go of the destructive guilt. It can be inhibit growth. Here is a good example that you may want to share with your sponsee.
I get very car sick. When I was a child I threw up all over the family car on every trip. My parents would yell at me. Why do you do this? What is wrong with you? Why can't you stop? Did anybody think to give me a bag? No, I was just supposed "change". I hated being yelled at and always thought if I give it one more minute maybe it will go away. Maybe I can will it away. I never could. I always threw up. I always felt guilty and ashamed. It never changed my behavior.
My children were also motion sensitive. This is what I told them starting at the age of 2. There is no shame in getting car sick. It is out of your control. Here is a bag, hold it in your lap. If you feel sick use the bag. As they got older I included, there is no shame in getting sick, there is shame in not speaking up and using the bag.
They both threw up all the time. They never missed the bag. They never felt badly about it. They rarely get carsick any more. I still throw up but I don't miss the bag, I have one in every purse.
Guilt is not an effective method for behavioral change. Tools are good methods for behavioral changes.
I find that in my own work analogies have a way of really putting things in perspective. Maybe the above would be a good one to use with your sponsee.
You can discuss how figuring out the reason as to why she didn't do her best can be helpful but holding on to the guilt about it, is not.
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