Thought on "Humility" and/or "Shame"????
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Thought on "Humility" and/or "Shame"????
I was recently reading a thread in which an SR member I admire quite a bit said something that implied that "understanding one's own shame" was a necessary condition for humility.
That idea, for some reason, really caught my attention. Partly, I guess, because "humility" is such an ambiguous concept for me. In fact, the understanding that I personally have related to the best thus far, also from a long-time sober AA person who works a great program, is: "True humility is realistic knowledge and assessment of one's self. Knowledge and assessment in which one neither 'puffs oneself up,' nor 'tears oneself down.'"
...and I guess, now that I've written that, that would definitely include recognizing and understanding one's own shame (assuming one had shame)....So, now maybe I'm not so sure exactly what it is I am asking people to talk about here...because, really, the sense I got from that other post was that shame was somehow a necessary condition of humankind...and I don't think that that "feels" true to me personally....which, of course, doesn't make it untrue for others, but if it is true for others, I 'd really appreciate any insight those others could offer about how that works for them.....
So, I guess I'm asking both 1) how people define and experience humility...both in themselves and in others....and, tangentally, 2) if and how "shame" plays into any of that for you...
I guess I should probably say up-front here, too, that the reason why this is important to me is because I personally don't feel "shame" in the deep-seated, existential sense that I'm pretty sure the original poster was using it. And it has happened several times to me since I've been in program that I've really been confounded by some apparently pretty simple things because I tend to project onto people a level of self-esteem, confidence, understanding, etc....much greater than that with which many people are, in fact, operating......and I'm kinda getting the sense that maybe I have seriously underestimated and/or overlooked the importance of shame in this way, too.
freya
That idea, for some reason, really caught my attention. Partly, I guess, because "humility" is such an ambiguous concept for me. In fact, the understanding that I personally have related to the best thus far, also from a long-time sober AA person who works a great program, is: "True humility is realistic knowledge and assessment of one's self. Knowledge and assessment in which one neither 'puffs oneself up,' nor 'tears oneself down.'"
...and I guess, now that I've written that, that would definitely include recognizing and understanding one's own shame (assuming one had shame)....So, now maybe I'm not so sure exactly what it is I am asking people to talk about here...because, really, the sense I got from that other post was that shame was somehow a necessary condition of humankind...and I don't think that that "feels" true to me personally....which, of course, doesn't make it untrue for others, but if it is true for others, I 'd really appreciate any insight those others could offer about how that works for them.....
So, I guess I'm asking both 1) how people define and experience humility...both in themselves and in others....and, tangentally, 2) if and how "shame" plays into any of that for you...
I guess I should probably say up-front here, too, that the reason why this is important to me is because I personally don't feel "shame" in the deep-seated, existential sense that I'm pretty sure the original poster was using it. And it has happened several times to me since I've been in program that I've really been confounded by some apparently pretty simple things because I tend to project onto people a level of self-esteem, confidence, understanding, etc....much greater than that with which many people are, in fact, operating......and I'm kinda getting the sense that maybe I have seriously underestimated and/or overlooked the importance of shame in this way, too.
freya
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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"Humility" reminds me too much of being humble--being respectful as a lesser person. It makes me think of "classes" in society...and I don't like that. I don't focus on humility.
I don't care for shame, either. I think people use the idea of shame to control others.
I don't care for shame, either. I think people use the idea of shame to control others.
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
"True humility is realistic knowledge and assessment of one's self. Knowledge and assessment in which one neither 'puffs oneself up,' nor 'tears oneself down.'"
I like the above definition. However, in recovery, I think we do need to tear ourselves down at some point, to heal. That is part of the process of recovery. For example, the steps. We need to be humble, honest and the process can be painful. To feel the pain is to heal. It is also important to understand life isn't about control. That is where the ego comes into play. I no longer feel much shame. I know what it is and suffered from it immensely. That was due to my drinking. I lied about my drinking and was ashamed by my behavior. I felt guilt for what I was doing and what I had become. Through the recovery process, I have put the shame behind me. I no longer have a reason to feel shame. I live a good clean life. I'm capable of being honest and I don't try to run the show. I try to co-exist within it. I know what I used to be has made me the person who I am today. I wouldn't change it for the world. I'm grateful for the knowledge. Through the learning process I have found strength and wisdom and no where my boundaries lie. Self assessment is the ongoing process of recovery.
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I don't believe shame, is a necessary factor in a successful recovery.
And there are so many competing definitions of ego, and whether it's good or not, that the idea of 'tearing it down' seems worthless to me.
I've shared this before and I'll share it again. It speaks for itself
Humility does not mean thinking less of yourself than of other people, nor does it mean having a low opinion of your own gifts. It means freedom from thinking about yourself at all.
~William Temple
Still trying
D
And there are so many competing definitions of ego, and whether it's good or not, that the idea of 'tearing it down' seems worthless to me.
I've shared this before and I'll share it again. It speaks for itself
Humility does not mean thinking less of yourself than of other people, nor does it mean having a low opinion of your own gifts. It means freedom from thinking about yourself at all.
~William Temple
Still trying
D
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Quote:
"True humility is realistic knowledge and assessment of one's self. Knowledge and assessment in which one neither 'puffs oneself up,' nor 'tears oneself down.'"
...and I definitely see that as defined---the act of being humble....: not proud or haughty; not arrogant or assertive.
That's about as far as I go with being humble/having humility, but when it comes to shame......? Nope; I just don't do it. I usually find it to be a totally worthless emotion.
I love how 'guilt' and 'shame' were once explained to me.........: We feel 'guilty' for something we did; We feel 'shame' for who we are.
Well, since I believe I am, and everybody else is, just who I am, we are, supposed to be; well, there's no room for 'shame' here..... (o:
NoelleR
"True humility is realistic knowledge and assessment of one's self. Knowledge and assessment in which one neither 'puffs oneself up,' nor 'tears oneself down.'"
...and I definitely see that as defined---the act of being humble....: not proud or haughty; not arrogant or assertive.
That's about as far as I go with being humble/having humility, but when it comes to shame......? Nope; I just don't do it. I usually find it to be a totally worthless emotion.
I love how 'guilt' and 'shame' were once explained to me.........: We feel 'guilty' for something we did; We feel 'shame' for who we are.
Well, since I believe I am, and everybody else is, just who I am, we are, supposed to be; well, there's no room for 'shame' here..... (o:
NoelleR
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: splendraville
Posts: 5,599
have you no shame?:wtf2 I have been asked that many times....even sober. A very good friend was ashamed of me because of my H being a crack addict.
People who are shamed to the core often cannot "feel" their shame.
Humble and humiliated are 2 different things ya know.
A book that I got a lot of good insight on this subject is called:
Healing The Shame that Binds You by Bradshaw
People who are shamed to the core often cannot "feel" their shame.
Humble and humiliated are 2 different things ya know.
A book that I got a lot of good insight on this subject is called:
Healing The Shame that Binds You by Bradshaw
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
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Thought on "Humility" and/or "Shame"????
Too many people overvalue what they are not and undervalue what they are. ~Malcolm S. Forbes
. So for me shame is a nasty burden for a child to carry around into adulthood.
Last edited by Zencat; 01-30-2009 at 01:37 PM. Reason: typo
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I think shame can be divided into two camps:
1. Shame you feel for having done something wrong (synonymous with guilt.) I think it's alright to feel some sense of shame as long as it's just a nagging, emotional reminder to make an amends for some wrong done--or to forgive one's self if amendment is impossible. If it doesn't get magnified or seen as something permanant.
2. Shame for being something. If I feel shame for being an alcoholic there's nothing good in that. Or shame because I'm a guy and have body issues. That's a horse of a different color. That shame needs to be killed, put off, let go of in whatever manner possible.
1. Shame you feel for having done something wrong (synonymous with guilt.) I think it's alright to feel some sense of shame as long as it's just a nagging, emotional reminder to make an amends for some wrong done--or to forgive one's self if amendment is impossible. If it doesn't get magnified or seen as something permanant.
2. Shame for being something. If I feel shame for being an alcoholic there's nothing good in that. Or shame because I'm a guy and have body issues. That's a horse of a different color. That shame needs to be killed, put off, let go of in whatever manner possible.
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OK...Please, bear with me here people, because I'm thinking this out as I go along and it's taking some time. I know this is long, but if you can, please read it through and let me know what you "hear."
After reading all of you guys' posts (Thanks so much!) and thinking about this more, I've kinda figured out that for me personally, humility cannot depend on my understanding my own shame because feeling shame in a pervasive, deep-seated way, is just not part of my life experience....and, yes, maybe that's kinda rare...but it also a great blessing and I'm just going to feel relieved and grateful that, for the most part, I have been spared the kinds of experiences that create that.....
......So then I guess that what I'm really struggling with here is the extreme difficulty I have understanding and relating to other people's shame. And truthfully, there are a lot of things that I have a very hard time relating to and/or understanding.....shame is just one of them. I mean, obviously, on an intellectual level I know what it is and what kinds of things and experience might cause it to be a major factor in someone's life.....but before I came into program I truly had no idea of how deeply and how pervasively it affects so many people.....and I'm thinking right now that even the idea/sense/understanding I currently have is woefully inadequate.
For instance, I have group of women friends who have, for the last 8 years, been getting together at my house in January to do a "collage" exercise. This is a very emotional/spiritual type of get-together where the idea is that we are going to be sharing very openly and honestly what's going on with us energetically and psychologically and spiritually....even on a subconscious level because the whole thing is very image driven as opposed to rational/verbal....
....So, anyways, this year it comes out from 2 of the women (one of whom is a mental health professional and acts as our facilitator for this gathering) that they have been deliberately and consciously holding things back and not presenting all of the images that they were drawn to during their collage process......AND the reason they had been choosing to do that was because they felt "ashamed," like they shouldn't be drawn to some of the images they were drawn to and like, somehow, people were going to judge them or think less of them or..... whatever.......(I really truly have no friggin' clue because I just don't get it!!) if they see those kind of images on their collages.
Of course, we talked quite a bit about why that was, and it became very obvious that it had absolutely nothing to do with anything that had gone on in the group. I mean, it wasn’t like they didn't trust the group or the other women or felt particularly unsafe in the group. In fact, apparently relative to how much trust they have and how much safety they feel in general, they "know" the group is very trustworthy and safe....but their own shame makes it so hard for them to trust and feel safe even though they know intellectually that they have nothing to fear in this particular situation.
And I was like pretty much totally mind-blown by this whole thing (not that I let on about that or showed it in any way at the time, because that, obviously, would not have been helpful or appropriate)....because, really, what is the point of doing an exercise like that if you're not going to be real about it????????? And, yes, I know that it's great that they were able "to come clean" about it even at this point, and that that represents good growth for them, etc....etc.....etc......but I just totally do not get it. I don't.
...and, the thing that blows my mind the absolute most about it and that actually p*sses me off (at myself) is that I was absolutely and totally taken off-guard by it.....even though I've seen in program how pervasive and how dangerous low-self-esteem and shame and fear and all of that stuff is and even though I see people struggling with it all the time, I was still totally unprepared to see this in these women in this context. So, I'm more than a little bit like "Gee, freya, when are you really going to get it through your head that this (fear/shame/self-loathing) is the space that most people are operating out of most of the time??????"
And another part of it, too, is that there have been times in the past when there were images to which I was drawn during the process that I was so uncomfortable with and/or that seemed so much to me (intellectually) not to fit with the rest that I was very, very tempted not to use them.....but I did (even if I put them on the back because I couldn't figure out where to put them on the front). I used them and I showed them and I talked about how I felt about them during the process because that is what we have made a commitment to ourselves and to the other women in the group to do and because I know d*mn well that this thing cannot work like it's supposed to if I don't do it. And, h*ll yeah, it felt a bit awkward...but I know perfectly well, too, that that awkwardness was probably a good indication that it was even more important for me to be open and honest about it to begin with......and when I think about that and about what would have to be different about me in order for me to have been too afraid and too ashamed to have made that choice, I truthfully cannot even begin to imagine…..
....and, so, I still, on a gut, experiential level do not get it. Stuff like this in people I know and respect and who I know are working hard on themselves and their spiritual and/or recovery journeys just always blows my mind. I mean, I see how great and how precious they are; why is it so impossible for them to see it??????....and my gut response is always to want to say (well, probably to scream!) to them: "just don't go there"....or..."just stop this insanity now" because, if it is so painful and so confusing and so sad to see this terrible wounding in people I know, I can't even begin to imagine how friggin' painful, and confusing, and sad, and hard and debilitating it is for them to live with it inside of them...
At least in program I learned that there really is no "just" about it for them…and that’s probably a step in the right direction…..but to really “get” where they’re coming from when it’s that shame place….I don’t know if that’ll ever happen for me….and, actually, if I have to experience being in that place myself in order to have to have it happen, then, probably, that’s not really something I should be aspiring to anyways......IS IT????
So, what, really am I working on here.....is it acceptance????? Just plain acceptance of the fact that I don't know this and I can't know it and I'm gonna continue to be surprised and dismayed by it for-friggin'-ever????? Compassion???? Patience????
What are you guys hearing here??????...because I'm not at all sure what it is I'm trying to say?????
freya
After reading all of you guys' posts (Thanks so much!) and thinking about this more, I've kinda figured out that for me personally, humility cannot depend on my understanding my own shame because feeling shame in a pervasive, deep-seated way, is just not part of my life experience....and, yes, maybe that's kinda rare...but it also a great blessing and I'm just going to feel relieved and grateful that, for the most part, I have been spared the kinds of experiences that create that.....
......So then I guess that what I'm really struggling with here is the extreme difficulty I have understanding and relating to other people's shame. And truthfully, there are a lot of things that I have a very hard time relating to and/or understanding.....shame is just one of them. I mean, obviously, on an intellectual level I know what it is and what kinds of things and experience might cause it to be a major factor in someone's life.....but before I came into program I truly had no idea of how deeply and how pervasively it affects so many people.....and I'm thinking right now that even the idea/sense/understanding I currently have is woefully inadequate.
For instance, I have group of women friends who have, for the last 8 years, been getting together at my house in January to do a "collage" exercise. This is a very emotional/spiritual type of get-together where the idea is that we are going to be sharing very openly and honestly what's going on with us energetically and psychologically and spiritually....even on a subconscious level because the whole thing is very image driven as opposed to rational/verbal....
....So, anyways, this year it comes out from 2 of the women (one of whom is a mental health professional and acts as our facilitator for this gathering) that they have been deliberately and consciously holding things back and not presenting all of the images that they were drawn to during their collage process......AND the reason they had been choosing to do that was because they felt "ashamed," like they shouldn't be drawn to some of the images they were drawn to and like, somehow, people were going to judge them or think less of them or..... whatever.......(I really truly have no friggin' clue because I just don't get it!!) if they see those kind of images on their collages.
Of course, we talked quite a bit about why that was, and it became very obvious that it had absolutely nothing to do with anything that had gone on in the group. I mean, it wasn’t like they didn't trust the group or the other women or felt particularly unsafe in the group. In fact, apparently relative to how much trust they have and how much safety they feel in general, they "know" the group is very trustworthy and safe....but their own shame makes it so hard for them to trust and feel safe even though they know intellectually that they have nothing to fear in this particular situation.
And I was like pretty much totally mind-blown by this whole thing (not that I let on about that or showed it in any way at the time, because that, obviously, would not have been helpful or appropriate)....because, really, what is the point of doing an exercise like that if you're not going to be real about it????????? And, yes, I know that it's great that they were able "to come clean" about it even at this point, and that that represents good growth for them, etc....etc.....etc......but I just totally do not get it. I don't.
...and, the thing that blows my mind the absolute most about it and that actually p*sses me off (at myself) is that I was absolutely and totally taken off-guard by it.....even though I've seen in program how pervasive and how dangerous low-self-esteem and shame and fear and all of that stuff is and even though I see people struggling with it all the time, I was still totally unprepared to see this in these women in this context. So, I'm more than a little bit like "Gee, freya, when are you really going to get it through your head that this (fear/shame/self-loathing) is the space that most people are operating out of most of the time??????"
And another part of it, too, is that there have been times in the past when there were images to which I was drawn during the process that I was so uncomfortable with and/or that seemed so much to me (intellectually) not to fit with the rest that I was very, very tempted not to use them.....but I did (even if I put them on the back because I couldn't figure out where to put them on the front). I used them and I showed them and I talked about how I felt about them during the process because that is what we have made a commitment to ourselves and to the other women in the group to do and because I know d*mn well that this thing cannot work like it's supposed to if I don't do it. And, h*ll yeah, it felt a bit awkward...but I know perfectly well, too, that that awkwardness was probably a good indication that it was even more important for me to be open and honest about it to begin with......and when I think about that and about what would have to be different about me in order for me to have been too afraid and too ashamed to have made that choice, I truthfully cannot even begin to imagine…..
....and, so, I still, on a gut, experiential level do not get it. Stuff like this in people I know and respect and who I know are working hard on themselves and their spiritual and/or recovery journeys just always blows my mind. I mean, I see how great and how precious they are; why is it so impossible for them to see it??????....and my gut response is always to want to say (well, probably to scream!) to them: "just don't go there"....or..."just stop this insanity now" because, if it is so painful and so confusing and so sad to see this terrible wounding in people I know, I can't even begin to imagine how friggin' painful, and confusing, and sad, and hard and debilitating it is for them to live with it inside of them...
At least in program I learned that there really is no "just" about it for them…and that’s probably a step in the right direction…..but to really “get” where they’re coming from when it’s that shame place….I don’t know if that’ll ever happen for me….and, actually, if I have to experience being in that place myself in order to have to have it happen, then, probably, that’s not really something I should be aspiring to anyways......IS IT????
So, what, really am I working on here.....is it acceptance????? Just plain acceptance of the fact that I don't know this and I can't know it and I'm gonna continue to be surprised and dismayed by it for-friggin'-ever????? Compassion???? Patience????
What are you guys hearing here??????...because I'm not at all sure what it is I'm trying to say?????
freya
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 14,246
In my life any sense of shame is something I would describe as blame that is run amok-a form of self-hatred perhaps and definitely a lack of healthy self esteem.
Whether it's something I can or cannot change doesn't matter- it's about if am either accepting of it or working towards change. I don't see shame as productive. If I accept some blame that is what I consider owning up to my side of things, dealing with it, and moving past and leaving it behind.
I really like the posted definitions about humility. To me true humility is a total lack of self absorption....aka Rule 62: "don't take yourself too seriously."
Whether it's something I can or cannot change doesn't matter- it's about if am either accepting of it or working towards change. I don't see shame as productive. If I accept some blame that is what I consider owning up to my side of things, dealing with it, and moving past and leaving it behind.
I really like the posted definitions about humility. To me true humility is a total lack of self absorption....aka Rule 62: "don't take yourself too seriously."
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,385
For me shame existed of and arose from a voice within myself that kept telling me that I was a worthless and unloveable person. I would put myself down a lot. This was something I lived with for as long as I can remember. So for me, shame is putting oneself down constantly but for no valid reason and often with very considerable harm. That seems to me to be what step 6 is all about and why I don't feel comfortable with some of AA philosophy.
I don't want to feel shameful and full of character defects. And I don't think that humility can be reached through a feeling of shame. I think it only leads one to think less of oneself. Are we supposed to use it to transform our selves into better people by becoming less selfish and more humble? That just seems counter-intuitive to me. I'd rather avoid the shameful feelings so that I can achieve a feeling of complacency and worthiness.
When I think of humility (humbleness) I think of someone like Mother Theresa who gave so much to the poor and downtrodden but asked for very little. She was a person of strong faith and probably didn't have a lot to be shameful about. So in that light I believe that humility is tied to faith more than it is tied to shame. Faith and a complete trust in God for everything.
Thomas Merton states in his book Seeds of Contemplation, "Humility contains in itself the answer to all the great problems of the life of the soul. It is the only key to faith, with which the spiritual life begins: for faith and humility are inseparable."
Another quote by Merton from the same book that I like is, "...perfect humility implies perfect confidence in the power of God..."
I am thinking now of the saying, "those who are humble shall be exalted and those who exalt themselves shall be humbled."
So what I am trying to say, and this in part I am learning about myself even now, is that humility can only be achieved through faith and that it has little to do with shameful feelings.
I don't want to feel shameful and full of character defects. And I don't think that humility can be reached through a feeling of shame. I think it only leads one to think less of oneself. Are we supposed to use it to transform our selves into better people by becoming less selfish and more humble? That just seems counter-intuitive to me. I'd rather avoid the shameful feelings so that I can achieve a feeling of complacency and worthiness.
When I think of humility (humbleness) I think of someone like Mother Theresa who gave so much to the poor and downtrodden but asked for very little. She was a person of strong faith and probably didn't have a lot to be shameful about. So in that light I believe that humility is tied to faith more than it is tied to shame. Faith and a complete trust in God for everything.
Thomas Merton states in his book Seeds of Contemplation, "Humility contains in itself the answer to all the great problems of the life of the soul. It is the only key to faith, with which the spiritual life begins: for faith and humility are inseparable."
Another quote by Merton from the same book that I like is, "...perfect humility implies perfect confidence in the power of God..."
I am thinking now of the saying, "those who are humble shall be exalted and those who exalt themselves shall be humbled."
So what I am trying to say, and this in part I am learning about myself even now, is that humility can only be achieved through faith and that it has little to do with shameful feelings.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,385
Freya I can see your frustration. You have posed a great question and I am finding myself really absorbed in it because I think I am learning something about myself that I never thought about that much before. My post, as disjointed as it reads is really me trying to figure out the purpose of shame and humility.
I got nothin'
Join Date: Jun 2008
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I know this is a little off topic, so I’m going to apologize now, but this makes me think...and I need to get this out.
I do not have shame, but I do have low self-esteem. I do not equate the two.
My self-esteem issues has to do with my physical appearance (well, my perception of my physical appearance). There is no shame in how I actually am…but I do have anger and sadness in connection with my self image. According to societal standards I am ugly. I have acne…bad enough to keep me far away from people. My face is always oily…and pimply…and scarred. I have acne all over my chest and back. I remember hearing a long while ago that it’s natural for people to view those with acne as people who have a disease…this was used in a context that implied this is an instinctual response. That suggestion is still burned into my mind.
No treatment works. Nothing. I’m in my late 20’s and I still have it. It’s the ugly curse…sometimes I wish I could peel my skin off because I hate it so much. I resent people who have good skin. It’s not fair….it keeps me separate……….and painfully alone. I feel completely undesirable...because I am undesirable. It doesn’t matter how I might modify my personality…nothing can overcome my appearance.
Also, I have a tendency to be a reserved person...even when I was little I was a follower...I could not be assertive and do things on my own. It’s been a real struggle to break away from my innate personality. I’m literally going against the grain of my being to change who I am to fit an ideal that I have. Being a follower and being weak leaves one behind in life…that’s what I’ve learned.
I do not have shame, but I do have low self-esteem. I do not equate the two.
My self-esteem issues has to do with my physical appearance (well, my perception of my physical appearance). There is no shame in how I actually am…but I do have anger and sadness in connection with my self image. According to societal standards I am ugly. I have acne…bad enough to keep me far away from people. My face is always oily…and pimply…and scarred. I have acne all over my chest and back. I remember hearing a long while ago that it’s natural for people to view those with acne as people who have a disease…this was used in a context that implied this is an instinctual response. That suggestion is still burned into my mind.
No treatment works. Nothing. I’m in my late 20’s and I still have it. It’s the ugly curse…sometimes I wish I could peel my skin off because I hate it so much. I resent people who have good skin. It’s not fair….it keeps me separate……….and painfully alone. I feel completely undesirable...because I am undesirable. It doesn’t matter how I might modify my personality…nothing can overcome my appearance.
Also, I have a tendency to be a reserved person...even when I was little I was a follower...I could not be assertive and do things on my own. It’s been a real struggle to break away from my innate personality. I’m literally going against the grain of my being to change who I am to fit an ideal that I have. Being a follower and being weak leaves one behind in life…that’s what I’ve learned.
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Originally Posted by KenL 
So what I am trying to say, and this in part I am learning about myself even now, is that humility can only be achieved through faith and that it has little to do with shameful feelings.
...and it seems to me that when I look at my friends when they are talking about their shame, it is really, really clear that shame disturbs (and often even totally disrupts) their connection to HP (however they conceptualize HP)....so that means it's both very dangerous and very powerful..
Going to bed now 'cause I have to get early tomorrow and go moderate a Group Inventory for a group that is in crisis. And I should be trying to keep myself centered for that, too, because, from what I've heard, it's a pretty divisive situation......how fun! (NOT!)
freya
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Bamboozle, thanks for sharing...I'm glad at least that you can talk about that here...and I do believe that there are people who can see past physical issues like that.... not too many in this culture, unfortunately, but there are some...
Thanks for posting here -- freya
Thanks for posting here -- freya
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Justice desires no remedy
Originally Posted by freya
I was recently reading a thread in which an SR member I admire quite a bit said something that implied that "understanding one's own shame" was a necessary condition for humility.
...That idea, for some reason, really caught my attention...
So, I guess I'm asking both 1) how people define and experience humility...both in themselves and in others....and, tangentally, 2) if and how "shame" plays into any of that for you...
freya
...That idea, for some reason, really caught my attention...
So, I guess I'm asking both 1) how people define and experience humility...both in themselves and in others....and, tangentally, 2) if and how "shame" plays into any of that for you...
freya
My own ES&H is not an average recounting for reasons the most telling being my life long experience with disability, [i am a polio survivor]; my addiction history and recovery; [street addict becomes therapist] and my lengthy sobriety, [since 1981]; so i am not an average example. I do have reliable quantity and quality of experiences with shame and humility from the life i lived and into this very day as well
lolfreya, your understanding of my earlier post in a different thread is the way i meant it -- ' "understanding one's own shame" was a necessary condition for humility." ' -- and imo, it certainly speaks volumes that you indeed have an open mind and heart to another's shame and humility, notwithstanding what you are saying in this thread from your own experiences with others. Seems to be different with me... i have no difficulty feeling appreciated by you.
My shame is all about what and who i am and what i do about all that in my life day after day. My humility is how i balance my shame with my realization that i am what i am and my acceptence of that existence in a postive and healthy productive proactive manner. My guilt is all about what i have or have not done that is right and wrong in my life and is more mechanical in nature to my experinces then is shame and humilty which are intensely personal.
To start with; my being drunk and stoned and abusive for many years WAS a great shame in my life. And that same shame now long ago accepted into my sobriety creates humilty that i experience each day i trudge along my path. On that path i have recurrent themes in my life that before would have sent me off boozing in those same shameful abusive behaviours of my past and now those same experiences i gratefully hold close to my heart in a completely renewed fashion and enjoy the simplicity of that real moment of humility experienced *before* reliving the shame can be felt and i am humbled by the majesty of life and my sincere relationship with the justice of what goes around comes around. I am only reaping the seed i have already sown... and that is how my shame informs and creates my humilty. The actual personal events themselves are not important to this discussion; although the one thing that has brought me the most shame is my experience with suicide.
I am not talking about attempts, i am speaking to the shame being suicidal brings into one's life. My last few years of abusing were very suicidal times. Looking back, i am still totally surprised i didn't erase myself out. Looking forward, i am totally surprised that almost all of us are dead and gone before we reach just a hundred years of life. I have realized for many years now that i simply won't be alive long enough to accomplish anything near what i am able to accomplish: i simply don't have the time.
Suicidal thoughts and feelings robbed me of time. Time that can not in this earthly existence be given back to me in any purposeful way. I am not talking about simply not being suicidal today. I'm meaning all the rest of the deep thinking and intimate feelings that weigh totally heavy on the life of one who is suicidal. The darkness and the aloneness and the shame of it all.
I had said earlier that i am a polio survivor and as it turned out that very survival put my life on a path that i still "walk" this very day. hahaha. the irony of it all. You see, as i realized that my life had become this useless wretch of a broken drunken man i also realized how incredibly hard i had truly worked to get to that horrible state. I had overcome some very horrific challenges already from the polio and accomplished important milestones as a child and as a teenager. And yet -- here i was a suicidal mess. I cannot put into words in this post just how shameful i felt with that realization those many years ago. To have fought and won so many challenges only in the end to desire suicide as my final reward shamed me to my very core. Words for that story i do not have this night. All i can say is that from that *exact* shame i found the created humility to best and overcome the *entire* shame that was rotting my life.
The healing happened over several years and to this day i am grateful for the purpose that that particular shame has had in my life. i now realize shame is what defines me personally to myself and i am not accountable to another for my shame. My humility is the rightful purpose of my shame. Without humility shame would destroy my inner self and the rest of that end is obvious.
Humility does not fight against my past shame but rather evaporates its destructiveness and toxicity enabling me to "see" the truth within my shame and right myself to my greater understanding and rightful path through life. Past mistakes can be appreciated and not repeated. Present challenges can be made understandable and workable.
Like my shame defined me so does now my humility. I am what i am and i have a rightful purpose and place within the universe however small or large that place may be that place i can trustfully evermore call my home and call my heart of hearts.
:ghug2
Robby
the girl can't help it
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Some people such as children of alcoholics,drug addicts, and ones who live with abuse and violence live in shame. It is shaming to live this way.
There is difference in loving ones self and having high self esteem. One is spiritual and the other is not. A person who loves them self will take responsibility for their actions and hold them self accountable. A person with self esteem places their desires before reason and the needs of others.
A shamed person may have self esteem and be able to get what they want but they won't have any feeling for the people they step on to get what they want.
A person who loves them self can see what the consequences of their actions might bring. A person who loves will automatically love their neighbor as them self because this is the nature of love.
This is how things get twisted in addictive relationships. The codie thinks if they kiss the addicts butt that the addict will want to do the right thing. The codie thinks they are loving the addict when nothing is farther from the truth. The truth of love is love does give take or put up with BS. It sounds harsh don't it.
Just remember a shamed person can have self esteem but that does not equal self love.
There is difference in loving ones self and having high self esteem. One is spiritual and the other is not. A person who loves them self will take responsibility for their actions and hold them self accountable. A person with self esteem places their desires before reason and the needs of others.
A shamed person may have self esteem and be able to get what they want but they won't have any feeling for the people they step on to get what they want.
A person who loves them self can see what the consequences of their actions might bring. A person who loves will automatically love their neighbor as them self because this is the nature of love.
This is how things get twisted in addictive relationships. The codie thinks if they kiss the addicts butt that the addict will want to do the right thing. The codie thinks they are loving the addict when nothing is farther from the truth. The truth of love is love does give take or put up with BS. It sounds harsh don't it.
Just remember a shamed person can have self esteem but that does not equal self love.
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Robby, thanks so much for taking the time "to say" all of that so clearly. Part of what's important to me about hearing what you said is that it feels really hopeful.....and, from that perspective it makes me realize that part of what disturbs me so much about the shame thing when it comes up so strongly and so unexpectedly in people I know is that it feels so hopeless to me.....like, on some level (though not exactly consciously) I look at it and think "Wow..if this can manifest so strongly in these people in this situation and with such a debilitating effect, then what does that mean when I have to realize that there are so many more people out there operating from even even deeper place of shame, many of them in so deep that they don't even realize that they're there?????"
....and that train of "thought" is very silly, really....not the compassionate part of it but the part of it that totally leaves HP out of the equation, because the hysteria and the frustration and the hopelessness and the obsessive need to understand all come from forgetting that, regardless of what I "get" or "don't get," HP has it under control and HP understands and that's really all that matters.
I also see in your post the whole idea that healing of the type you've experienced is totally paradoxical (in the sense of deepest weakness transforming into greatest source of healing and strength) and happens very, very much on a spiritual level.....so, it's not very accessible to the rational mind and it's not something that can be predicted, controlled, and orchestrated by us (human beings). I mean, there are things we can do to facilitate it and/or to become more receptive to it and/or to make it more likely to occur, but the rest is up to HP (again Step 6 & 7)......... and I have had "healings" of that kind in my own life in relation to other issues, and I do accept that I don't understand them rationally and I can't really "explain" them to other people in a rational, cause-and-effect way......and I am still pretty uncomfortable with that part of it, so I can forget pretty easily I guess....
...but at least the length of time that my "forgetting" lasts is getting a lot shorter....I mean, from the time I read that other post of yours and started getting all obsessed about the whole shame thing to this morning is not more than 3 days...that's a lot better than 10 years, right?????
freya
P.S. "Justice desires no remedy" ?????????? I'm guessing you know quite well, Robby, that my mind is singularly ill-equipped to do the koan thing....which, again, is why it's important for me to try, right? LOL!
....and that train of "thought" is very silly, really....not the compassionate part of it but the part of it that totally leaves HP out of the equation, because the hysteria and the frustration and the hopelessness and the obsessive need to understand all come from forgetting that, regardless of what I "get" or "don't get," HP has it under control and HP understands and that's really all that matters.
I also see in your post the whole idea that healing of the type you've experienced is totally paradoxical (in the sense of deepest weakness transforming into greatest source of healing and strength) and happens very, very much on a spiritual level.....so, it's not very accessible to the rational mind and it's not something that can be predicted, controlled, and orchestrated by us (human beings). I mean, there are things we can do to facilitate it and/or to become more receptive to it and/or to make it more likely to occur, but the rest is up to HP (again Step 6 & 7)......... and I have had "healings" of that kind in my own life in relation to other issues, and I do accept that I don't understand them rationally and I can't really "explain" them to other people in a rational, cause-and-effect way......and I am still pretty uncomfortable with that part of it, so I can forget pretty easily I guess....
...but at least the length of time that my "forgetting" lasts is getting a lot shorter....I mean, from the time I read that other post of yours and started getting all obsessed about the whole shame thing to this morning is not more than 3 days...that's a lot better than 10 years, right?????
freya
P.S. "Justice desires no remedy" ?????????? I'm guessing you know quite well, Robby, that my mind is singularly ill-equipped to do the koan thing....which, again, is why it's important for me to try, right? LOL!
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Originally Posted by splendra
There is difference in loving ones self and having high self esteem. One is spiritual and the other is not. A person who loves them self will take responsibility for their actions and hold them self accountable. A person with self esteem places their desires before reason and the needs of others.
freya
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