Zencat

It sounds to me that these woman may have been uncomfortable with owning something that conflicts with their self-image (self-concept). This incongruous effect challenges their belief, experience and how others have viewed them currently or in the past. Being attracted to an image that they may believe is not a part of how they view themselves caused deep feelings. Choosing to explain it was shame that prevented then to add those images to their collage may have served to keep their self-view in tact.

Also the very way this exercise was conducted could cause conflicting emotions. Like feeling vulnerable. Vulnerability is often associated with shame and past abuse. So I could see sitting in a group, trying to open up and drop ones defenses to the group as very difficult. Then selecting an image that challenges their self-view in a group, feeling vulnerable to critique by others, and even maybe feeling vulnerable to a critical inner voice. WOW, there could be a lot of internal and external processes going on at once. And again shame is often experienced with internal confusion. So I see why the word shame was picked as a response to communicate to the group.

As for owning an aspect that conflicts with ones self-view is not necessarily negative. There may be too much misunderstanding about the nature of choosing an image that conflicts with their self-view. Rather than seeing what could be a negative attribute of oneself as an important aspect of oneself, like repulsion. The images may have repulsed (shamed?) then to accept that image as part of their self-view, but it could be misunderstood that choosing that image was really a statement of their positive attributes as a person that is unwilling to do repulsive (shameful?) behaviors.

Lots and lots of possibilities going on here. Ive tried to point out some but there is far more to explore if more information was available. Great question anyway.

freya

Koan: Justice desires no remedy.

"Resolution": Redemption

???????? What say you, Robby???????

freya

P.S. If I'm not even in the ballpark, I'm gonna need some "clues."

splendra

self esteem:

Pride in oneself; self-respect.

Pride is one of the seven deadly sins don'cha know.

This is why I want to steer away from it. Pride will over look others and even the true self. Pride is an ego thing.

I do not see self esteem as an extension of self love.

There is a world of difference between love and pride.

I have tripped over pride many times worrying about my image. With regret I look back on how pride has taken me down. With self love I want to hold myself accountable and keep myself free from pride and avoid the pit falls.

freya

Well, if I were a medieval Christian maybe I'd give a whole lot of weight to the idea of "7 deadly sins." LOL! But, I'm not and I don't. In fact, I find the self-abnegating mindset of that kind of Christianity to be extremely dysfunctional and disturbing -- not to mention something that directly feeds into and encourages a lot of shame.

And, BTW, you totally ignored the part of the definition you posted that kinda implied an equation between pride-in-self and self-respect...surely you don't have a problem with self-respect????

As far as pride in general goes -- I think it's very similar to humility in the sense that, in and of itself, when it is based on honest self-awareness and appraisal, it's a good thing (just like in and of itself, when it's based on honest self-awarenss and appraisal, humilty is a good thing) but taken too far and/or not properly balanced with humility it becomes arrogance -- which, BTW, is more the sense in which it is included in the 7 deadly sins -- and that's a problem.

But, also, it might be relevant here that I'm not an alcoholic/addict, either, so maybe there's something about the alcoholic mindset that makes it very difficult and/or even impossible for an alcoholic/addict to have honest pride in his/her strenghts and accomplishments without taking too much risk of falling over the edge into arrogance and grandiosity....but I have a hard time believing that in any kind of absolute sense.....especially of any one who is working a strong program, because it seems like there would be plenty there to keep that in check.

freya

freya

I'm sorry Splendra -- I really did not give enough weight to this part of what you wrote.....and all of that I said earleir might be interesting stuff to think about and discuss but this part is what's, of course, really important -- and, of course, you do whatever you need to do and think about it however you need to think about it to get yourself there because that's a noble goal.

freya

splendra

Yea I think I kinda do have a problem with self respect other wise I would not have put up with the crap of a crack addict for 11 years.

My problem is in building self respect. My pride problem is in that I have arrogantly thought I could fix my H or get past it with him.


Over the centuries of human civilization humans have changed very little. Otherwise there would not be wars famine and death as usual. We can't even get the wisdom of the ancients yet in our modern times. I can't even imagine the progress humans might make if they could understand and apply the principals of this wisdom. Our souls still have the same anatomy because of lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride. Surely you can agree that all of these have nothing to do with love of the self or anyone else for that matter.

A saying from proverbs " Pride goeth before a fall" comes to my mind.

Guilt is not necessarily a bad thing if it motivates change. Shame on the other hand can keep one stuck for years... Guilt is shame in the light. Shame stays in the dark and goes unacknowledged.

Shame can be in the basement growing like deadly mold in the most outwardly beautiful of castles. The same goes for the soul of an individual.

splendra

bump

RobbyRobot

A Koan is a Zen thing of great beauty and power that resists the rational mind, but mayhaps can be enjoyed by the heartfelt intuitive side of our character.

Redemption is not what i was thinking, Freya, although it's offered meaning does have a certain grace to it, no?

My meaning is this: Justice stands on it's own virtues and merits. It answers only to itself and is blind to all other appeals of pursuasion save the appeal of truth of established fact and precedent. Justice is blind for a good reason: if not blind than surely Justice would convict itself to ongoing procrastination forevermore.

Justice desires no remedy for it does not have awareness of being entirely wrong, or for that matter, of being entirely right. Justice is a created balance and all coins have two sides.


Love you freya,

and thank you,
Robby

freya

Well, here's a great little HP story, guys. I had just logged onto this site about 2 hours ago, saw Robby's post and was just starting to post something back, when the phone rang. It was my alcoholic, bulimic, over-the-top-codependent sister from Ca.

It just so happens that I have not really had a meaningful conversation with this sister since November 2007, when she was here for Thanksgiving and behaved extremely crazily. Of course, I enforced boundaries, and she was not happy and decided that I was out to get her and, since that drama's not something I really need to have in my life, I've been keeping it very superficial since then.

So, to make a long story short, we had a really good talk, and, mostly, I think it was because I have been kinda entertaining in my mind lately this whole thing about shame (she is extremely shame-filled) and about how it affects people and about how little I can really relate to that...so I guess somehow it just gave me a little more patience with her and acceptance and different "expectations" around the whole thing......and we talked for 1 1/2 hours....I mean, I didn't let her get crazy on me or anything but I also didn't put the same kind of pressure on her that I do sometimes when she says things that are just like really skewed and not helpful to anyone....and I gave her a couple of ideas from my own recovery process...who knows if she'll pick anything up out of it or not, but it's out there and that's not up to me........So, anyways, it was good, and I'm thinking it's because I'm having a little shift here.....because, really, there was nothing different about her.....

So, thanks to everyone!

The "Justice" thing.......yeah, that really caught my attention because I can tend to get caught up on the whole thing of justice and fairness, and so, when I read that, my immediate response was "Justice is the remedy," but one second later, I'm thinking "Well, no, justice is about redress (balancing it out as Robby said) and that's really, really different and doesn't address the issue of remedy at all." And it seemed very koan-ish to me because, the more I thought about it, the more it occurred to me that, unlike justice, whatever truly desires and provides remedy, is not going to be attained or arrived at by rational, cause-and-effect, rule-of-law, etc.....means. Because, that which cries out for remedy (true remedy, the kind of remedy that makes justice irrelevant and, ultimately, unnecessary) is way too personal and fundamental to be "remedied" by any of those means (although they might play a part in moving things to the place where remedy is attained.)

And then, on Tuesday, I just woke up and the concept that had presented itself to me was "redemption," and somehow I know that that was related to a story I heard at a meeting over the last weekend. This speaker had just a really hard, abusive story, both in terms of his own upbringing and then in terms of his behavior while using, and really, if one were to talk literally about "justice" in relation to the events of his pre-sober life, one would basically be looking at a Pale-Rider-style blood-bath all around. But here he was Happy, Joyous and Free...and obviously very connected to HP....a miracle, really.......so, that's where the "redemption" response came from....because that is the remedy.

...am I making any sense???????

freya

RobbyRobot

Making great sense, Freya. Hey, how cool iz you that when you actually had compassion for your relationship with your sister, her shame became a seperate element you could embrace and objectify apart from your real-time experience with her in the conversation. Being able to intelligently examine another persons shame without all their drama blotting out the scenery is an excellent beginning. So yeah, a positive and informative shift in your stance on understanding others shame and their behaviours around it all. Rock on!

Your Pale-Rider bit is awesome. One of my fav Eastwood cowboy films so no difficulty seeing the aftermath of "the blood bath". yeah, a redemption of trading his past misery and behaviours in for happiness, sobriety, and freedom "paid for" through his enduring quality relationship with his HP. And so the "remedy" becomes a rockin' good life!

YAY!!



RR

Live

I think shame comes from fundamental fear...that we are somehow wrong as persons.
We are not good enough, we are a mistake, and that these feelings are rooted in th core of our being. I use these shamed thoughts to try to convey the deep feeling of shame/inadequacy. It is in our root belief about who and what we are.I venture to speculate that while shame can be overcome, it cannot be eradicated.

freya

Yes, it was very cool, Robby, and I feel good about it...

liveweyerd: It's great to "see" you! I was thinking about you a few days ago and wondering "where" you were.....I hope everything it OK with you...

freya

James13

Shame, justice and redemption. Great points of discussion.

True justice is objective, imo. Shame and redemption are subjective. To me, they are the precursors to change, if one wants it.

The feelings of shame I have had I would not want someone to have to experience. It's hell. I have been in some unhealthy places in life. The paranoia is terrible- about how I see myself and how others see me. Living most of my life worried about other's perceptions about myself makes it even worse when unhealthy acts are carried out and others know. Then my perception and paranoia about their view has caused me to
actually feel that perceived way about myself.

I find less shame in myself when change is ongoing, because I am moving away from the person I was that I am shameful about. But shame still shows it's ugly head in me sometimes. Constant mindfulness usually puts it back at bay, because it represents change in myself.

This is where I want to set myself up for redemption. I want to redeem myself. I want to help people. The main thing I see in the way that puts this off is my procrastination while my wheels are spinning, grinding out fear and shame. But this life change to mental and physical wellness is a slow one, and patience is needed. I'm not used to patience.

So in the everyday practice of life, where I have eschewed the compulsive using of substance and other means, I know I am pointed in the right direction. It is essential for healing and spirituality. It is fundamental to my well being. WIthout this everyday practice of sobriety from mind altering use of things- chemical AND non-chemical, the path to further change is blocked.

Random thoughts on this for now...

Boleo

How can we pry people’s perception away from the misconception that humility is synonymous with humiliation? These two words sound pretty much the same to the casual listener and have definitions, which to some degree, overlap with each other. The difference in most circumstances is quite subtle and therefore not always worth arguing about.

The starving man feels humiliation where the fasting man feels humility. Same circumstances, different intentions. The humble man survives many more days on the same diet as the humiliated man.

By the same token a timid person may appear humble while a humble person may appear to be timid. Same behavior, different intentions. While the timid individual has had his or her pride taken away from them and thus feels humiliated, the humble person surrenders their pride freely. This same behavior can also be looked at from the standpoint of courage. The timid man has no courage and chooses to procrastinate. Conversely, the humble man has plenty of courage but chooses to focus it on patiently waiting for Gods guidance. Procrastination and patience may look to be identical responses to the same stimulus, however; in this case, patience takes the form of delayed action rather than no action.

In a recovery program there can be a world of difference between suffering humiliation and gaining humility. Again the difference lies in the intention on the part of the subject in question rather than the actual observable event from the perspective of an outside observer (one mans ceiling is another man’s floor). The person who feels that they are just a victim of circumstances has far less optimism than the person who feels that they can simply face the problem with some degree of humility. In other words, the humiliated person sees the cup half empty whereas the humble person sees the same cup half full.

There is also a perception difference regarding the degree of control between the two individuals. The humiliated person feels that they are in a completely helpless situation without any rights or alternative choices whatsoever. The humble person recognizes that he or she has at least one option even if it is merely a change of attitude on their part. The humble person has the ability to recognize that there is always a possibility to gain a valuable lesson from the experience. They are willing to at least take a “wait and see” attitude toward their adverse condition before passing judgment on their situation.

In addition to the psychological differences between these two words there is a spiritual connotation to the word humility that its near cousin, humiliation, never benefits from. Humility contains within it a seed of positive potential that can turn it around into a growth opportunity for the person. The Chinese use the same word for disaster as they do for opportunity because they see the loss of one man’s business as the growing market for the entrepreneur. A typhoon or tsunami wipes an area clean of exiting businesses and allows entrepreneurs to come in and operate with little or no competition. In the ancient Greek language the same word used for meek (synonymous with humility) was also used for clean or cleansing. It is no stretch to see a similar meaning to the common phrase “no pain, no gain”.

Bodybuilders are not generally know for their humility but when they are working-out they see the truth about themselves, their body and the their potential to gain from a seemingly painful experience. They know the secret to fatiguing a muscle to the point of failure is to work it until they experience the pain. That is; working it to the point that it breaks down and is forced to rebuild itself. A muscle that has broken down spreads apart and opens up new pathways to let blood circulate through the middle of it. It then gains new nutrients in its interior and reassembles itself in such a way that it has fortified itself. The body-builders temporary sacrifice ends up gaining them muscles that are bigger, better and stronger than before, provided that the bodybuilder is humble enough to have the patience to allow the muscle time to heal properly. Delayed gratification is also a form of humility. Some would call this behavior masochistic but it is true humility in the sense that the athlete can see “Without pain there is no gain”.

In the philosophical context, humility is synonymous with teach-ability. The old adage, “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks” is commonly used among Doctors, Psychiatrists and Psychologists. So much so, that it is a rule of thumb in some circles. The exception to this rule is humility. It is easy to see why the Romans saw meekness as having a cleansing effect on the human soul. It, in effect, turned meekness into a “Tabula Rasa” (clean slate) allowing new knowledge to be written on the blackboard of the soul.

Another big advantage for those in recovery is that humility serves as an instrument for seeing through the ego’s attempt to deny the severity of the sufferer’s addiction. No matter how much one suffers as the result of addictive behavior, pride will always grow back, not unlike a weed, and attempt to cover up the damage with denial. Humility serves as the perfect gardening tool for this relentless emotional weed by pruning pride and allowing the truth to show through about this disease.

Iriss

Hi I am so very new to sobriety.. I am ashamed of what I become when drunk, but that is not me when Im sober... There is no doubt drugs and alcholol changes our perception and view of reality. Many of us have done wrong and hurt others in in this drug induced state.. I like who I am, and dont feel any shame... I am humbled to have been given this granted short stay so far of sobriety... Whilst I continue to seperate me sober and me drunk, I can continue to like me, and liking me helps me to feel good and not ashamed, shame will bring me self loathing, low self esteem and probably a fastpass back to alcohol. Thanks