What is a friendship? What is a relationship?
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: England
Posts: 1,981
I believe that all friendships/relationships however breif are for a reason and we learn from each and every soul we interact with.
We may connect either physically, emotionally, both or through internet type communication, but each connection serves a purpose for the higher good. We may not know what that good is at the time.
Just because a relationship doesn't last it doesn't mean it didn't work and friendships do not have to last a life time, they just need to be there at the right time.
Here on SR I'm amazed at all the words of wisdom and thank you all. :ghug
We may connect either physically, emotionally, both or through internet type communication, but each connection serves a purpose for the higher good. We may not know what that good is at the time.
Just because a relationship doesn't last it doesn't mean it didn't work and friendships do not have to last a life time, they just need to be there at the right time.
Here on SR I'm amazed at all the words of wisdom and thank you all. :ghug
Last edited by Pixy1; 08-03-2008 at 11:22 AM.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Robby:
I read your post several days ago and have been trying to get my thoughts together on it ever since. It’s not quite “there” yet, but I’m hoping that starting to write it out will bring it along, so here goes:
My partner and are part of a group of 4 recovery couples who get together once a month for dinner and whatever. (All of the people in the group, except me, are alcoholics and/or addicts; two of them are double-winners; I am Al Anon. Our time in recovery ranges from 2 years to 25 years, and we range in age from 44-58.) July was our month to host the event. So, people came over at 5:30, we chatted, we ate, we talked, and we played cards. Everyone left at somewhere between 1:30 and 2. We had an amazing time. I mean, if you could have heard the goings-on you might have thought people had to be drunk to be having that good of a time (I know this for a fact because my neighbor, who drinks more than she probably should and has to drink to enjoy herself, told me so!) – but, believe me, there were no drugs or alcohol involved – even the coffee switched to decaf after dinner. A few days later, one of guys called to thank us for hosting – he’s been sober a little more than 2 years, and he told me: “Frey, We had such a good time. I never thought I could have that good of a time without being drunk or high!” We talked for awhile about what that meant to him and why that was. It was a great talk and I always feel honored when anyone shares that deeply and that honestly with me – when anyone trusts me enough to allow me to be an intimate part of his/her personal journey. For me, that is the real “sweet spot.”
The thing here is, all of these people are really good friends. We can be totally open and honest and real with each other – even when we are together as a group and even when we are together as a group we can talk deeply and intimately about our lives, our feelings, our programs, our spiritual journeys, whatever, and that, I think is directly related to the fact that we feel safe enough and accepted enough when we are together, to also be totally silly and uninhibited and just do whatever without having to have any “chemical lubricant” to help anyone out.. It is also directly related to the fact the things we do do are such that we don’t have to feel “bad,” or embarrassed, or ashamed, or physically ill about any it in any way afterward. We can just look back on it and experience it with gratitude as the incredible blessing it is. I don’t really see how it can get any “sweeter” than that.
And I have a strong sense that somehow the “sweetness” level is directly related to our ability to be fully present in the moment with each other – whether we are all together having fun or whether we are talking one-on-one going through maybe even really hard and painful stuff. For me, the excitement and the intensity of any experience is all about how fully present I am able to be in it.
And, as far as I can tell, my – or anyones’ – ability to be fully present is reduced directly in proportion to how much addictive activity, of any kind, I am engaging in. Now, as I said, I’m not an alcoholic, but I did go through that time in my life when “partying” was just something I did and I did have some very good times doing that. But in terms of the depth of those experiences and their value extending in any way beyond their being a “wicked good time” while they were actually happening, well, NO, that just wasn’t/isn’t true of them. In fact, I have to say that I often didn’t feel so great afterward and plenty of times, when I thought back on what I had considered/experienced at the time as being so deep and/or so profound and/or so exciting and/or so pleasurable, all I could do is wince and think “WTF were you thinking, freya?????” Because, the fact is, “partying” like that, as far as I can tell, just gave me the illusion -- and even that illusion, only for as long as I was under the influence -- of being able to experience deep, meaningful excitement/pleasure/intensity whatever…..without my having to do the work of and/or take the risks involved with actually being fully present.
Because being fully present does take a lot of work – the work of knowing myself and of being honest and true with myself, and of feeling my feelings – the good and the bad; and the work of identifying and working through my woundings, my core-issues, my unhealthy, self-destructive behaviors; and the work of being able and willing to help with and accept the same from others. And it does mean risk – the risk of trusting others and of putting my true, real, present self out there to be shared with/by others.
And I do personally know plenty of alcoholics/additcs who feel the same way. My best friend in program, who is in actual practice my sponsor, has been sober 27 years. She is a wonderful, fun person but she also works a kick-ass, take-no-prisoners program. And when we spend time together, whether we are just having fun or whether we are working hard on program/core-life-issue related stuff, I almost always leave with an almost overwhelming feeling of how totally blessed I am to have her in my life…and she has told me many times how what she thought was “a great time” when she was drinking/using was nothing compared to what she can experience now just in the context of hanging out with good friends or even of working through a tough/painful issue with a close, trusted recovery friend……and I would be willing to be my last dime that there is absolutely no denial going with her when it comes to this.
And that actually leads me to some important questions that this part of your post raised for me:
First off, let me say that I absolutely do not doubt that you are being 100% honest when you say that you miss that…but my questions, I guess, lie around the issue of why it is that that isn’t enough for you? I mean, why is it that it is not enough for you that your experience partying and your experience that you miss that and that you think that you will always miss is not true enough and valid enough for you to state it just as the fact that it is about yourself? What makes it necessary for you to, not only project it on to every other addict/alcoholic who has ever experienced and loved the party scene, but also to question the self-awareness and the honesty of these people, and, thereby to call into doubt the fundamental quality of their recoveries – since self-awareness and honesty as 2 of the most basic principles upon which solid recovery is based?
I’m only raising these questions because it seems to me that the issues you might discover by trying to answer them thoroughly and honestly – not to/for me or to/for anyone else on this board, but to/for yourself -- might be directly related to the issue of forming deep, meaningful friendships and relationships.
In my experience, in order for me to have any kind of relationship that is beyond a superficial acquaintance, I have to be willing and open to knowing and accepting others…and the truth is that others are not me and that they do not share exactly my experience and exactly my perceptions and they are not all exactly in the same place that I am at on my recovery/spiritual journey. If I go around projecting my experience/perceptions/judgments onto them, then the truth is that I am not ever going to allow myself to know them, and, insofar as I am limiting my ability to know them, I am limiting my access to true friendship. Furthermore, if I, based on my projections, then assume that they are unself-aware and dishonest, then clearly I am not going to be able to trust them and trust is, for me, a must-have if I am going to be friends with or romantically/sexually involved with others….because I am only going to allow myself to be open and honest and present with others to the extent that I trust them…..and that comes back, for me, to “the sweet spot” because, as I said earlier, for me, “the sweet spot” is wherever I am able to be most fully present.
Thanks for reading -- freya
I read your post several days ago and have been trying to get my thoughts together on it ever since. It’s not quite “there” yet, but I’m hoping that starting to write it out will bring it along, so here goes:
My partner and are part of a group of 4 recovery couples who get together once a month for dinner and whatever. (All of the people in the group, except me, are alcoholics and/or addicts; two of them are double-winners; I am Al Anon. Our time in recovery ranges from 2 years to 25 years, and we range in age from 44-58.) July was our month to host the event. So, people came over at 5:30, we chatted, we ate, we talked, and we played cards. Everyone left at somewhere between 1:30 and 2. We had an amazing time. I mean, if you could have heard the goings-on you might have thought people had to be drunk to be having that good of a time (I know this for a fact because my neighbor, who drinks more than she probably should and has to drink to enjoy herself, told me so!) – but, believe me, there were no drugs or alcohol involved – even the coffee switched to decaf after dinner. A few days later, one of guys called to thank us for hosting – he’s been sober a little more than 2 years, and he told me: “Frey, We had such a good time. I never thought I could have that good of a time without being drunk or high!” We talked for awhile about what that meant to him and why that was. It was a great talk and I always feel honored when anyone shares that deeply and that honestly with me – when anyone trusts me enough to allow me to be an intimate part of his/her personal journey. For me, that is the real “sweet spot.”
The thing here is, all of these people are really good friends. We can be totally open and honest and real with each other – even when we are together as a group and even when we are together as a group we can talk deeply and intimately about our lives, our feelings, our programs, our spiritual journeys, whatever, and that, I think is directly related to the fact that we feel safe enough and accepted enough when we are together, to also be totally silly and uninhibited and just do whatever without having to have any “chemical lubricant” to help anyone out.. It is also directly related to the fact the things we do do are such that we don’t have to feel “bad,” or embarrassed, or ashamed, or physically ill about any it in any way afterward. We can just look back on it and experience it with gratitude as the incredible blessing it is. I don’t really see how it can get any “sweeter” than that.
And I have a strong sense that somehow the “sweetness” level is directly related to our ability to be fully present in the moment with each other – whether we are all together having fun or whether we are talking one-on-one going through maybe even really hard and painful stuff. For me, the excitement and the intensity of any experience is all about how fully present I am able to be in it.
And, as far as I can tell, my – or anyones’ – ability to be fully present is reduced directly in proportion to how much addictive activity, of any kind, I am engaging in. Now, as I said, I’m not an alcoholic, but I did go through that time in my life when “partying” was just something I did and I did have some very good times doing that. But in terms of the depth of those experiences and their value extending in any way beyond their being a “wicked good time” while they were actually happening, well, NO, that just wasn’t/isn’t true of them. In fact, I have to say that I often didn’t feel so great afterward and plenty of times, when I thought back on what I had considered/experienced at the time as being so deep and/or so profound and/or so exciting and/or so pleasurable, all I could do is wince and think “WTF were you thinking, freya?????” Because, the fact is, “partying” like that, as far as I can tell, just gave me the illusion -- and even that illusion, only for as long as I was under the influence -- of being able to experience deep, meaningful excitement/pleasure/intensity whatever…..without my having to do the work of and/or take the risks involved with actually being fully present.
Because being fully present does take a lot of work – the work of knowing myself and of being honest and true with myself, and of feeling my feelings – the good and the bad; and the work of identifying and working through my woundings, my core-issues, my unhealthy, self-destructive behaviors; and the work of being able and willing to help with and accept the same from others. And it does mean risk – the risk of trusting others and of putting my true, real, present self out there to be shared with/by others.
And I do personally know plenty of alcoholics/additcs who feel the same way. My best friend in program, who is in actual practice my sponsor, has been sober 27 years. She is a wonderful, fun person but she also works a kick-ass, take-no-prisoners program. And when we spend time together, whether we are just having fun or whether we are working hard on program/core-life-issue related stuff, I almost always leave with an almost overwhelming feeling of how totally blessed I am to have her in my life…and she has told me many times how what she thought was “a great time” when she was drinking/using was nothing compared to what she can experience now just in the context of hanging out with good friends or even of working through a tough/painful issue with a close, trusted recovery friend……and I would be willing to be my last dime that there is absolutely no denial going with her when it comes to this.
And that actually leads me to some important questions that this part of your post raised for me:
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot 
Yes, I am super clean, but I loved the party atmosphere of the streets…so deep and sensual and exciting. I won’t believe anybody who says they were there, rocked with it, and now say they don’t miss the party air. That is denial thru and thru. i have no shame saying so and I have the credentials to back up my words.
I’m only raising these questions because it seems to me that the issues you might discover by trying to answer them thoroughly and honestly – not to/for me or to/for anyone else on this board, but to/for yourself -- might be directly related to the issue of forming deep, meaningful friendships and relationships.
In my experience, in order for me to have any kind of relationship that is beyond a superficial acquaintance, I have to be willing and open to knowing and accepting others…and the truth is that others are not me and that they do not share exactly my experience and exactly my perceptions and they are not all exactly in the same place that I am at on my recovery/spiritual journey. If I go around projecting my experience/perceptions/judgments onto them, then the truth is that I am not ever going to allow myself to know them, and, insofar as I am limiting my ability to know them, I am limiting my access to true friendship. Furthermore, if I, based on my projections, then assume that they are unself-aware and dishonest, then clearly I am not going to be able to trust them and trust is, for me, a must-have if I am going to be friends with or romantically/sexually involved with others….because I am only going to allow myself to be open and honest and present with others to the extent that I trust them…..and that comes back, for me, to “the sweet spot” because, as I said earlier, for me, “the sweet spot” is wherever I am able to be most fully present.
Thanks for reading -- freya
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Boy!!!!!!
An awful lotta words here.....I wasn't sure if you're asking for the definitions of both words: 'friendship' and 'relationship' or perhaps asking the difference between the two, if there is a difference......
I haven't had time to read ALL the responses here, but I would like to throw out here that I have friendships, and I have relationships.......
I see the definitions/differences kinda like the "definitions/differences between poodles and dogs..............ALL poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.....
Therefore...................:
ALL friendships ARE relationships, BUT not all relationships are friendships.... (o:
Guess you could say I like to keep things REAL SIMPLE....
NoelleR
An awful lotta words here.....I wasn't sure if you're asking for the definitions of both words: 'friendship' and 'relationship' or perhaps asking the difference between the two, if there is a difference......
I haven't had time to read ALL the responses here, but I would like to throw out here that I have friendships, and I have relationships.......
I see the definitions/differences kinda like the "definitions/differences between poodles and dogs..............ALL poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.....
Therefore...................:
ALL friendships ARE relationships, BUT not all relationships are friendships.... (o:
Guess you could say I like to keep things REAL SIMPLE....
NoelleR
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
the sweet spot
Originally Posted by freya
Robby:
I read your post several days ago and have been trying to get my thoughts together on it ever since. It’s not quite “there” yet, but I’m hoping that starting to write it out will bring it along, so here goes:
My partner and are part of a group of 4 recovery couples who get together once a month for dinner and whatever. (All of the people in the group, except me, are alcoholics and/or addicts; two of them are double-winners; I am Al Anon. Our time in recovery ranges from 2 years to 25 years, and we range in age from 44-58.) July was our month to host the event. So, people came over at 5:30, we chatted, we ate, we talked, and we played cards. Everyone left at somewhere between 1:30 and 2. We had an amazing time. I mean, if you could have heard the goings-on you might have thought people had to be drunk to be having that good of a time (I know this for a fact because my neighbor, who drinks more than she probably should and has to drink to enjoy herself, told me so!) – but, believe me, there were no drugs or alcohol involved – even the coffee switched to decaf after dinner. A few days later, one of guys called to thank us for hosting – he’s been sober a little more than 2 years, and he told me: “Frey, We had such a good time. I never thought I could have that good of a time without being drunk or high!” We talked for awhile about what that meant to him and why that was. It was a great talk and I always feel honored when anyone shares that deeply and that honestly with me – when anyone trusts me enough to allow me to be an intimate part of his/her personal journey. For me, that is the real “sweet spot.”
The thing here is, all of these people are really good friends. We can be totally open and honest and real with each other – even when we are together as a group and even when we are together as a group we can talk deeply and intimately about our lives, our feelings, our programs, our spiritual journeys, whatever, and that, I think is directly related to the fact that we feel safe enough and accepted enough when we are together, to also be totally silly and uninhibited and just do whatever without having to have any “chemical lubricant” to help anyone out.. It is also directly related to the fact the things we do do are such that we don’t have to feel “bad,” or embarrassed, or ashamed, or physically ill about any it in any way afterward. We can just look back on it and experience it with gratitude as the incredible blessing it is. I don’t really see how it can get any “sweeter” than that.
I read your post several days ago and have been trying to get my thoughts together on it ever since. It’s not quite “there” yet, but I’m hoping that starting to write it out will bring it along, so here goes:
My partner and are part of a group of 4 recovery couples who get together once a month for dinner and whatever. (All of the people in the group, except me, are alcoholics and/or addicts; two of them are double-winners; I am Al Anon. Our time in recovery ranges from 2 years to 25 years, and we range in age from 44-58.) July was our month to host the event. So, people came over at 5:30, we chatted, we ate, we talked, and we played cards. Everyone left at somewhere between 1:30 and 2. We had an amazing time. I mean, if you could have heard the goings-on you might have thought people had to be drunk to be having that good of a time (I know this for a fact because my neighbor, who drinks more than she probably should and has to drink to enjoy herself, told me so!) – but, believe me, there were no drugs or alcohol involved – even the coffee switched to decaf after dinner. A few days later, one of guys called to thank us for hosting – he’s been sober a little more than 2 years, and he told me: “Frey, We had such a good time. I never thought I could have that good of a time without being drunk or high!” We talked for awhile about what that meant to him and why that was. It was a great talk and I always feel honored when anyone shares that deeply and that honestly with me – when anyone trusts me enough to allow me to be an intimate part of his/her personal journey. For me, that is the real “sweet spot.”
The thing here is, all of these people are really good friends. We can be totally open and honest and real with each other – even when we are together as a group and even when we are together as a group we can talk deeply and intimately about our lives, our feelings, our programs, our spiritual journeys, whatever, and that, I think is directly related to the fact that we feel safe enough and accepted enough when we are together, to also be totally silly and uninhibited and just do whatever without having to have any “chemical lubricant” to help anyone out.. It is also directly related to the fact the things we do do are such that we don’t have to feel “bad,” or embarrassed, or ashamed, or physically ill about any it in any way afterward. We can just look back on it and experience it with gratitude as the incredible blessing it is. I don’t really see how it can get any “sweeter” than that.
yeahhhhh, let me start that your post here absolutely rocks me !! thank you so much for contributing so richly to the thread! you got me thinkin and i really love that i can’t tell you how much i appreciate each word you laid down. alright then, since your not quite “there” yet, i hope i can help that with my posting today, as i’m starting to see from all the great replies that i now need to be more clear about my original post....
i totally grok [as in Stranger in a Strange Land] the present moment awareness philosophy you enjoy. that all works for me too. I sense you really do enjoy rocking yourself with yourself and then sharing that with others and them to you, all the same back and forth, so yeah, you have found the “sweet spot” i’m talkin’ bout. way cool. it really defines those great sayings “to keep what we have we give it away” lol, and “use it or lose it” love that one, and “what goes around comes around” works every time, and “you’d cry too if it happend’ to you” yeah, baby, and “f*uckin’ A, man” hahahah that always makes me want to live hard and fierce.
ok so you’re not an chemical abuse addict, you’re Al Anon. well what that means to me is that you have not experienced being totally drunk or high as a way of life, or as some may say, as an attempted way of life. whatever. you didn’t cross over on to the other side, and make your bed over there. i’m all cool with that, freya. being on the other side is a wasted life full of death and worse, and nothin there is worth anything, save one thing: getting out of there alive.
Now that experience of getting out alive is priceless to me, and anybody else who made it out the same for them, if we don’t go back from whence we came. As for any of the boys and girls that found themselves over there but tried to buy and sell their way out, bargain their way out; well, they paid the price as tagged and marked down as a “one time special this day only....” yeah.... they paid for that with their lives. they are dead. they are gone. they have paid sideways. they tried to buy a life instead of selling the only one they ever had.
Now this next thing may sound cruel, and it may sound unloving, i dunno, we all have our own monsters to love or hate as we choose and i always gain sum friends with this and i lose sum friends so it don’t really matter i guess in the grand scheme of things: i will not ever never ever pay a price for being clean and sober. period. end of f*ucking story. and that day i ever pay any price for being alive today is the same day i won’t be sober no more. f*ucking A. guaranteed. done deal. i’m not sorry where i came from. and i don’t care where i’m going. the path is the path is the path. i walk it. i run it. i crawl it. i love you and anybody that looks like you who is on that path too. lol. it's all good.
yeah.
imagine for a minute how i see things through my eyes, please. i am an addict. an alcoholic. i have every reason to be drunk and no reasons to be sober. do you understand that? i can’t be any clearer then what you are reading in this post. i’m not joking, and i don’t think that you think i am, feya.
i’m gonna explain myself here because it’s not right that i have all this friggin’ continuous unbroken sobriety [27 years] and i’m saying i have no reasons to be sober. talk like that f*ucks some people up, and that ain’t right. so i hope to explain enough to start to answer all those excellent questions and insights from your beautiful post, freya.
it gets simple it does. all my reasons for being sober come from the fellowship and the path i walk with them. nothing with in myself keeps me sober. its always a shared thing always something given to me always some gift with my name on it for just a moment that keeps me sober and smilin’. none of it is unique to me.
and always my giving back my handing out my giving away what was given to me that keeps me sober too. i get things given to me, i use the hell out of them, and then i give them away. over and over again.
i am a user. a user of everything. it don’t matter anymore what i touch; i abuse it in some sick manner. that’s the price i pay for being an addict. and i will pay that price for the rest of my life. and i will pay it gladly. i will pay it happily. i will never stop paying it. it’s simple. i steal it, i use it, i sell it back to the first stupid loser i can find without a clue and i move on. rinse and repeat. lol.
wanna be my friend? it will cost you! wanna be my lover? you’re gonna get used! wanna be my enemy? you’re gonna get toasted! it don’t matter any more who or what you are. i am what i am and nuthing will change that.
sobriety and being clean gives me a great life to choose not to hate what i am, so i choose loving what i am, but being an addict means i am a monster. being sober means the monster is sleeping is all. just sleeping. all of my sobriety is something shared. none of it is just from me. not a single drop of it.
weird. i’m a great friend to have, i think i know something about how to love somebody up, and even my enemies say hello to me [lol]. and i’m a great dad to my daughter. and yet i’m a freakin’ monster. go figure.... sobriety really works! there is a “sweet spot” in sobriety. ohhhhhhhh yeaaaaaah.
it’s that “sweet spot” in the sobriety that i have found in my life. that love negates all the hate i have for the very life i am living. that love keeps the monster sleeping, keeps me happy, and spreads it all around for anybody else.
so this is where people say “no no your not a monster Robby... your loving, and nice, and whatever...” and as those words pass through the love i have and share with them and those words keep digging until they get past all the love and into the meat of the monster they worm their way in to it’s heartless heart and brainless brain and wake it up just a little bit more. just a little more each time. and the addict in me smiles and laughs and the game is on.
it’s all so sick. and its the price i pay for being an addict who didn’t die trying to pay the price for being sober. actively using addicts are not priceless, they will cost whoever whatever forever. actively giving addicts are totally priceless and they will give and give and give forever, its all they know how to do anymore. ain’t anything else worthwhile doing anymore.
it’s not about me. its not about you. it’s only about us. the fellowship. the path. the love. the life. the giving. the living. the experience. i can’t pay the price for being an addict and for being clean and sober. i cant pay both ways. no one can. one has to be free. i choose sobriety and everything in that life as free and priceless. my addiction life i will happily pay no matter the cost because in the end it’s still fixed and can’t cost any more then my life which at the time i got clean was worthless. all the math works for me.
ok. that’s enough for me just now. i’m not done with your sweet post, feya, it just jacked me to be honest at that level, and that's the way it's supposed to be sharing like that, nothing wrong with that.
i just need to recharge my robot batteries and i’ll be back on your post soon enough and answer the rest. i wanted you and others to see what i meant by my “sweet spot” before i followed through on the rest. i want to be crystal clear.
you so rocked me, freya.
Robby
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
hey, Robby, I was waiting for you to finish...but today our access to HO is totally down here at work, so I'm going to busy myself by responding to what you've done thus far...
"Grok"....LOL...it's been a long time since I've "heard" anyone use that word!!!!! But it's soooo perfect for that kinda understanding/knowing/grasping that is beyond the rational mind and that one achieves through "practicing the principles." Yes, there aren't many terms that can really convey that sense.
I have a Al Anon friend who likes to say: "It is the gift of the alcoholic that their disease forces them to so clearly and so totally face the fact that they must rely on God or die." And I certainly believe it's true that alcoholism (or addiction or out of control blatantly obvious self-destructive behavior of any kind) does put that fact right in people's faces and that that is in some sense a "gift." But my personal experience is that separation from HP is deadly for anyone -- whether or not that separation manifests itself in ways that are blatantly obvious to even the casual observer.....It's just a lot easier for people whose separation from HP does not manifest itself in such obvious ways to "fool" themselves and others into believing everything is OK.
This, to me, is the "nightmare life-in-death" (as in "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner") experience. And this was my own experience before coming into program. Sure, there was not much danger that I was going up dead, or imprisoned, or institutionalized because of it. In fact, I looked really great and I was doing really great according to most societal standards. I myself couldn't even put my finger on exactly what the problem was and there were even lots of social structures in place to help me deny that there was any problem at all. But separation from HP is a problem -- and it is a desperate and heart-and-soul-killing problem for anyone who experiences it, and the exact specifics of how that problem manifests itself or doesn't manifest itself in any given individual's life really doesn't make a bit of difference when it comes to how deadening and destructive a problem it is.
The ever-so-important thing that it seems alcoholism or addiction can give people is the sense of urgency and immediacy in addressing the problem......but, for me, now that I know what my problem is, that sense of urgency and immediacy is just as real. It makes me crazy to try to deal with people who don't "get" that sense of urgency...that certain knowledge that "half measures avail us nothing" and that there is no alternative to casting ourselves on "His protection and care with complete abandon." And it's so friggin' easy -- and so terrbily dangerous -- for people who can tell themselves they're "normal" because they are not out there drinking or drugging or what-the-hell-ever to get away with ingoring the urgency.
Robby, I can tell by the passion of "your voice" that you work your program like your life depends on it -- because you know damn well it does, and the truth is that I work my program the same way for the same reason -- because even though physical death would most likely not be the result of my failure to do so, the "nightmare life-in-death" most certainly would be...and, for me, that kind of existence is no longer an even remotely acceptable option.
I'm not sure how much of this part I'm "getting," but what I am getting from it, for me, is about all of the paradoxes that are part of working a recovery program and having the kind of life -- happy, joyous, free -- that doing that "gives" us. Because, for me, the thing about "deserving" any of this is both a "yes" and a "no" because there is obviously nothing I can do in-and-of myself to deserve (or even to have) the recovery life, yet if I am connected with HP and walk, insofar as I am able, the path HP shows for me to walk, then HP "gives" me these gifts...and, if HP chooses to give them to me, then who am I to say I don't deserve them?
I think, for me, this is the place where the openess and willingness comes in....because it's not that I do X and therefore I get Y for myself....It's more that I am open and willing to be lead by HP and then all of the rest of it comes from HP...all that I need to "do" is practice the openess and the willingness...and, for me, this grows from just a little shift, the shift from being unwilling and thinking it's all about me and all for me to figure out and to decide and to do, to, at first, just maybe "fake it, 'till I make it" and then it just starts moving and the shifts get bigger and bigger and the things I am empowered to do get bigger and bigger and my sense of my connection to HP and my trust in it gets greater and greater...and on it goes as long as I practice being open and willing...
..and, actually, I remember once when I was trying out some kind of meditation practice with a friend (searching, at the time, for "the answer" to my indefineable problem) I found myself overwelmed with fear ans actual physical discomfort at having to try to "hold" all of this energy that I was feeling/receiving during the meditation. It scared the hell out of me and I remember thinking: "I can't possibly hold all of this; I'll blow-up," and so I never went back....but in program I've learned that "holding" it is not the point, the point is channeling it and sharing it and passing it on and that is -- another paradox -- because giving it away actually is what allows me to receive it in the first place continue to receive it and the more I give it away the more it flows and the more I receive and, far from being frightening or overwelming, it is totally empowering and energizing.
I've seen the monster wake up in my partner because several years into our relationship she had a relapse. We were separated for awhile and she ended up getting back into recovery...so, yeah, I know the monster's there and he'll always be there and the proper "care and feeding" of the monster is absolutely necessary to keep him sleeping soundly.....but, as far as totally identifying yourself with the monster goes -- that, to me, seems really dangerous because of the potential for self-loathing it raises...I mean, why is it any more "real" to totally identify with the monster than to totally identify with the sober Robby?????? Why is it any more "true" to identify with the "you" who exists totally cut off from HP and from others than it is to identify with the "you" who exists connected with HP and others? I mean, I get the importance/value/necessity of the "No way in hell I'm going back there" stance, but it seems to me that there is value and power in the tension and the balance of yin/yang itself.....I don't know, that is getting kind of abstract....but, more concretely, I just know from what I've heard in the rooms that anything that leads to self-loathing is dangerous as hell.....
that's all for now...
freya
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
i totally grok [as in Stranger in a Strange Land] the present moment awareness philosophy you enjoy. that all works for me too.
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
ok so you’re not an chemical abuse addict, you’re Al Anon. well what that means to me is that you have not experienced being totally drunk or high as a way of life, or as some may say, as an attempted way of life. whatever. you didn’t cross over on to the other side, and make your bed over there. i’m all cool with that, freya. being on the other side is a wasted life full of death and worse, and nothin there is worth anything, save one thing: getting out of there alive.
Now that experience of getting out alive is priceless to me, and anybody else who made it out the same for them, if we don’t go back from whence we came.
Now that experience of getting out alive is priceless to me, and anybody else who made it out the same for them, if we don’t go back from whence we came.
This, to me, is the "nightmare life-in-death" (as in "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner") experience. And this was my own experience before coming into program. Sure, there was not much danger that I was going up dead, or imprisoned, or institutionalized because of it. In fact, I looked really great and I was doing really great according to most societal standards. I myself couldn't even put my finger on exactly what the problem was and there were even lots of social structures in place to help me deny that there was any problem at all. But separation from HP is a problem -- and it is a desperate and heart-and-soul-killing problem for anyone who experiences it, and the exact specifics of how that problem manifests itself or doesn't manifest itself in any given individual's life really doesn't make a bit of difference when it comes to how deadening and destructive a problem it is.
The ever-so-important thing that it seems alcoholism or addiction can give people is the sense of urgency and immediacy in addressing the problem......but, for me, now that I know what my problem is, that sense of urgency and immediacy is just as real. It makes me crazy to try to deal with people who don't "get" that sense of urgency...that certain knowledge that "half measures avail us nothing" and that there is no alternative to casting ourselves on "His protection and care with complete abandon." And it's so friggin' easy -- and so terrbily dangerous -- for people who can tell themselves they're "normal" because they are not out there drinking or drugging or what-the-hell-ever to get away with ingoring the urgency.
Robby, I can tell by the passion of "your voice" that you work your program like your life depends on it -- because you know damn well it does, and the truth is that I work my program the same way for the same reason -- because even though physical death would most likely not be the result of my failure to do so, the "nightmare life-in-death" most certainly would be...and, for me, that kind of existence is no longer an even remotely acceptable option.
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
imagine for a minute how i see things through my eyes, please. i am an addict. an alcoholic. i have every reason to be drunk and no reasons to be sober. do you understand that? i can’t be any clearer then what you are reading in this post. i’m not joking, and i don’t think that you think i am, feya.
i’m gonna explain myself here because it’s not right that i have all this friggin’ continuous unbroken sobriety [27 years] and i’m saying i have no reasons to be sober. talk like that f*ucks some people up, and that ain’t right. so i hope to explain enough to start to answer all those excellent questions and insights from your beautiful post, freya.
it gets simple it does. all my reasons for being sober come from the fellowship and the path i walk with them. nothing with in myself keeps me sober. its always a shared thing always something given to me always some gift with my name on it for just a moment that keeps me sober and smilin’. none of it is unique to me.
and always my giving back my handing out my giving away what was given to me that keeps me sober too. i get things given to me, i use the hell out of them, and then i give them away. over and over again.
i am a user. a user of everything. it don’t matter anymore what i touch; i abuse it in some sick manner. that’s the price i pay for being an addict. and i will pay that price for the rest of my life. and i will pay it gladly. i will pay it happily. i will never stop paying it. it’s simple. i steal it, i use it, i sell it back to the first stupid loser i can find without a clue and i move on. rinse and repeat. lol.
wanna be my friend? it will cost you! wanna be my lover? you’re gonna get used! wanna be my enemy? you’re gonna get toasted! it don’t matter any more who or what you are. i am what i am and nuthing will change that.
i’m gonna explain myself here because it’s not right that i have all this friggin’ continuous unbroken sobriety [27 years] and i’m saying i have no reasons to be sober. talk like that f*ucks some people up, and that ain’t right. so i hope to explain enough to start to answer all those excellent questions and insights from your beautiful post, freya.
it gets simple it does. all my reasons for being sober come from the fellowship and the path i walk with them. nothing with in myself keeps me sober. its always a shared thing always something given to me always some gift with my name on it for just a moment that keeps me sober and smilin’. none of it is unique to me.
and always my giving back my handing out my giving away what was given to me that keeps me sober too. i get things given to me, i use the hell out of them, and then i give them away. over and over again.
i am a user. a user of everything. it don’t matter anymore what i touch; i abuse it in some sick manner. that’s the price i pay for being an addict. and i will pay that price for the rest of my life. and i will pay it gladly. i will pay it happily. i will never stop paying it. it’s simple. i steal it, i use it, i sell it back to the first stupid loser i can find without a clue and i move on. rinse and repeat. lol.
wanna be my friend? it will cost you! wanna be my lover? you’re gonna get used! wanna be my enemy? you’re gonna get toasted! it don’t matter any more who or what you are. i am what i am and nuthing will change that.
I think, for me, this is the place where the openess and willingness comes in....because it's not that I do X and therefore I get Y for myself....It's more that I am open and willing to be lead by HP and then all of the rest of it comes from HP...all that I need to "do" is practice the openess and the willingness...and, for me, this grows from just a little shift, the shift from being unwilling and thinking it's all about me and all for me to figure out and to decide and to do, to, at first, just maybe "fake it, 'till I make it" and then it just starts moving and the shifts get bigger and bigger and the things I am empowered to do get bigger and bigger and my sense of my connection to HP and my trust in it gets greater and greater...and on it goes as long as I practice being open and willing...
..and, actually, I remember once when I was trying out some kind of meditation practice with a friend (searching, at the time, for "the answer" to my indefineable problem) I found myself overwelmed with fear ans actual physical discomfort at having to try to "hold" all of this energy that I was feeling/receiving during the meditation. It scared the hell out of me and I remember thinking: "I can't possibly hold all of this; I'll blow-up," and so I never went back....but in program I've learned that "holding" it is not the point, the point is channeling it and sharing it and passing it on and that is -- another paradox -- because giving it away actually is what allows me to receive it in the first place continue to receive it and the more I give it away the more it flows and the more I receive and, far from being frightening or overwelming, it is totally empowering and energizing.
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
sobriety and being clean gives me a great life to choose not to hate what i am, so i choose loving what i am, but being an addict means i am a monster. being sober means the monster is sleeping is all. just sleeping. all of my sobriety is something shared. none of it is just from me. not a single drop of it.
weird. i’m a great friend to have, i think i know something about how to love somebody up, and even my enemies say hello to me [lol]. and i’m a great dad to my daughter. and yet i’m a freakin’ monster. go figure.... sobriety really works! there is a “sweet spot” in sobriety. ohhhhhhhh yeaaaaaah.
it’s that “sweet spot” in the sobriety that i have found in my life. that love negates all the hate i have for the very life i am living. that love keeps the monster sleeping, keeps me happy, and spreads it all around for anybody else.
so this is where people say “no no your not a monster Robby... your loving, and nice, and whatever...” and as those words pass through the love i have and share with them and those words keep digging until they get past all the love and into the meat of the monster they worm their way in to it’s heartless heart and brainless brain and wake it up just a little bit more. just a little more each time. and the addict in me smiles and laughs and the game is on.
it’s all so sick. and its the price i pay for being an addict who didn’t die trying to pay the price for being sober. actively using addicts are not priceless, they will cost whoever whatever forever. actively giving addicts are totally priceless and they will give and give and give forever, its all they know how to do anymore. ain’t anything else worthwhile doing anymore.
Robby
weird. i’m a great friend to have, i think i know something about how to love somebody up, and even my enemies say hello to me [lol]. and i’m a great dad to my daughter. and yet i’m a freakin’ monster. go figure.... sobriety really works! there is a “sweet spot” in sobriety. ohhhhhhhh yeaaaaaah.
it’s that “sweet spot” in the sobriety that i have found in my life. that love negates all the hate i have for the very life i am living. that love keeps the monster sleeping, keeps me happy, and spreads it all around for anybody else.
so this is where people say “no no your not a monster Robby... your loving, and nice, and whatever...” and as those words pass through the love i have and share with them and those words keep digging until they get past all the love and into the meat of the monster they worm their way in to it’s heartless heart and brainless brain and wake it up just a little bit more. just a little more each time. and the addict in me smiles and laughs and the game is on.
it’s all so sick. and its the price i pay for being an addict who didn’t die trying to pay the price for being sober. actively using addicts are not priceless, they will cost whoever whatever forever. actively giving addicts are totally priceless and they will give and give and give forever, its all they know how to do anymore. ain’t anything else worthwhile doing anymore.
Robby
that's all for now...
freya
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
my friend freya
Originally Posted by freya
hey, Robby, I was waiting for you to finish...but today our access to HO is totally down here at work, so I'm going to busy myself by responding to what you've done thus far...
I mean, I get the importance/value/necessity of the "No way in hell I'm going back there" stance, but it seems to me that there is value and power in the tension and the balance of yin/yang itself.....I don't know, that is getting kind of abstract....but, more concretely, I just know from what I've heard in the rooms that anything that leads to self-loathing is dangerous as hell.....
that's all for now...
freya
I mean, I get the importance/value/necessity of the "No way in hell I'm going back there" stance, but it seems to me that there is value and power in the tension and the balance of yin/yang itself.....I don't know, that is getting kind of abstract....but, more concretely, I just know from what I've heard in the rooms that anything that leads to self-loathing is dangerous as hell.....
that's all for now...
freya
LOL i gotta get going on my responses with you i am seriously getting behind here... heh heh.
i do think it is important though to not wait a minute longer about the self-loathing concerns you are sharing. Please don't be concerned, freya. i totally agree that self-loathing is dangerous as hell, and just trust me for now that i'm not self-loathing, ok? i'll explain it all out in this thread as i get to it.
please know for now there was a time in my early sobriety when self-loathing was indeed an extreme challenge to break through; but that was many years ago, my dear friend. I met that challenge, freya. You're soooo sweeet to be concerned, and you have welled up my eyes with your honesty and your fellowship love for me. you've rocked me again, LOL.
:ghug2
Robby
) and just want to say....Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 120
For me the game scene while drinking and drugging is far more different then than today.
I wasnt much for friends while out there in the streets (so to say). I actually never had a friendship/relationship. I was to busy getting loaded to have time for anyone else but me. I thought surely if you wanted to be my friend or in a relationship, it was because you wanted something from me.
Paranoid????? I guess. Everyone is out to get me???? Absolutely!!!
(So my mind would say). And maybe they were.........who knows, never stuck around to find out.
Since I have been sober. Relationships/Friendships are all too different. It has taken alot for me to just warm up to people. Been so long since I had a desire to form any 'ships.
Al though I have to admit, that my life today is far less complicated and a heck of alot less selfish.
This program is teaching how to have healthy, fun, exciting, trusting friendships/relationships. Fufilling relationships/friendships on both sides. I also have to say that my sober days are far more exciting that my using days.
I dont think I have ever laughed so much these past 20 months than I have my ENTIRE LIFE. That is a true miracle in itself.
This program (for me) is all about forming a relationship with God and my fellows. Ones that will be with for me the rest of my life. For that I am grateful.
:ghug
I wasnt much for friends while out there in the streets (so to say). I actually never had a friendship/relationship. I was to busy getting loaded to have time for anyone else but me. I thought surely if you wanted to be my friend or in a relationship, it was because you wanted something from me.
Paranoid????? I guess. Everyone is out to get me???? Absolutely!!!
(So my mind would say). And maybe they were.........who knows, never stuck around to find out.
Since I have been sober. Relationships/Friendships are all too different. It has taken alot for me to just warm up to people. Been so long since I had a desire to form any 'ships.
Al though I have to admit, that my life today is far less complicated and a heck of alot less selfish.
This program is teaching how to have healthy, fun, exciting, trusting friendships/relationships. Fufilling relationships/friendships on both sides. I also have to say that my sober days are far more exciting that my using days.
I dont think I have ever laughed so much these past 20 months than I have my ENTIRE LIFE. That is a true miracle in itself.
This program (for me) is all about forming a relationship with God and my fellows. Ones that will be with for me the rest of my life. For that I am grateful.
:ghug
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
On the streets? Sure hope I make it to the outside Sarasota blues fest this year!
Got to see King Solomon Burke last time and fell in love.
I am not a 12 stepper and not because of ignorance of the program. There are many paths!
The most important relationship is the relationship I have with myself.
Friendships occur when there is a compatibility and trust is earned on both sides.
We are in relationship with everyone we are in contact with (and things, as said before)
Life is interdependent.
I would like to share a poem about giving and receiving later.
Got to see King Solomon Burke last time and fell in love.
I am not a 12 stepper and not because of ignorance of the program. There are many paths!
The most important relationship is the relationship I have with myself.
Friendships occur when there is a compatibility and trust is earned on both sides.
We are in relationship with everyone we are in contact with (and things, as said before)
Life is interdependent.
I would like to share a poem about giving and receiving later.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Originally Posted by liveweyerd
There are many paths!
Yesterday, the most awesome thing happened. I met with this woman who I have seen only once in the last 35 years because, when I was 13 and she was 18, she entered a cloistered (vow of silence, close to no contact with or information from then outside world, etc..) convent. And, even when I did know her, it was only because she worked summers at a retreat center I attended for a week each year. Anyways, I have written to her at least once a year for all that time, and she had written to me a few times, because in the convent they are even limited as to how many letters they can write. The reason that I always kept in touch with her was because, even though I was so young when I knew her, it was just always so clear that she was somehow a person who was connected to God/HP/The Force/whatever-you-want-to-call-it in a special way.
Anyways, obviously, she's left the convent and I only happened to find out by accident through a nun from a different order whom I met through another friend...So, anyways, I found her and we met for tea yesterday.....We spent over 2 hours talking (it would have been more if I hadn't had to pick someone up for a meeting) and it was incredible....but the thing that really amazed me about it was how exactly the same our concepts of spirituality and what's important around/about that are -- even though our paths and our experiences have been so very, very different. (Now, I am not in any way comparing the depth and sophisiticaion of our spiritual practice, because, obviously, she is way ahead of me there....but I'm talking about the basic understanding of what's important and how spirituality "works" in our lives.)
...and, of course, it was also pretty amazing to be able to connect so well and so quickly with someone who I really haven't had a lot of contact with for a very long time...but I think the fact that we could so easliy relate on that spiritual level kinda made it happen like that...
So, anyways, as friendships/relationships go...this one is defintely "diifferent"...and we shall see how it progresses from here....it's very exciting....especially since this year it seems that I have been working on a llittle "program" project of trying to connect with people whose spirituality I admire, and, clearly, HP is really encouraging me and helping me out there....
Originally Posted by liveweyerd
I would like to share a poem about giving and receiving later.
freya
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
the sweet spot 2
Originally Posted by freya
Robby:
And I do personally know plenty of alcoholics/additcs who feel the same way. My best friend in program, who is in actual practice my sponsor, has been sober 27 years. She is a wonderful, fun person but she also works a kick-ass, take-no-prisoners program. And when we spend time together, whether we are just having fun or whether we are working hard on program/core-life-issue related stuff, I almost always leave with an almost overwhelming feeling of how totally blessed I am to have her in my life…and she has told me many times how what she thought was “a great time” when she was drinking/using was nothing compared to what she can experience now just in the context of hanging out with good friends or even of working through a tough/painful issue with a close, trusted recovery friend……and I would be willing to be my last dime that there is absolutely no denial going with her when it comes to this.
And that actually leads me to some important questions that this part of your post raised for me:
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Yes, I am super clean, but I loved the party atmosphere of the streets…so deep and sensual and exciting. I won’t believe anybody who says they were there, rocked with it, and now say they don’t miss the party air. That is denial thru and thru. i have no shame saying so and I have the credentials to back up my words.
First off, let me say that I absolutely do not doubt that you are being 100% honest when you say that you miss that…but my questions, I guess, lie around the issue of why it is that that isn’t enough for you? I mean, why is it that it is not enough for you that your experience partying and your experience that you miss that and that you think that you will always miss is not true enough and valid enough for you to state it just as the fact that it is about yourself? What makes it necessary for you to, not only project it on to every other addict/alcoholic who has ever experienced and loved the party scene, but also to question the self-awareness and the honesty of these people, and, thereby to call into doubt the fundamental quality of their recoveries – since self-awareness and honesty as 2 of the most basic principles upon which solid recovery is based?
I’m only raising these questions because it seems to me that the issues you might discover by trying to answer them thoroughly and honestly – not to/for me or to/for anyone else on this board, but to/for yourself -- might be directly related to the issue of forming deep, meaningful friendships and relationships.
In my experience, in order for me to have any kind of relationship that is beyond a superficial acquaintance, I have to be willing and open to knowing and accepting others…and the truth is that others are not me and that they do not share exactly my experience and exactly my perceptions and they are not all exactly in the same place that I am at on my recovery/spiritual journey. If I go around projecting my experience/perceptions/judgments onto them, then the truth is that I am not ever going to allow myself to know them, and, insofar as I am limiting my ability to know them, I am limiting my access to true friendship. Furthermore, if I, based on my projections, then assume that they are unself-aware and dishonest, then clearly I am not going to be able to trust them and trust is, for me, a must-have if I am going to be friends with or romantically/sexually involved with others….because I am only going to allow myself to be open and honest and present with others to the extent that I trust them…..and that comes back, for me, to “the sweet spot” because, as I said earlier, for me, “the sweet spot” is wherever I am able to be most fully present.
Thanks for reading -- freya
And I do personally know plenty of alcoholics/additcs who feel the same way. My best friend in program, who is in actual practice my sponsor, has been sober 27 years. She is a wonderful, fun person but she also works a kick-ass, take-no-prisoners program. And when we spend time together, whether we are just having fun or whether we are working hard on program/core-life-issue related stuff, I almost always leave with an almost overwhelming feeling of how totally blessed I am to have her in my life…and she has told me many times how what she thought was “a great time” when she was drinking/using was nothing compared to what she can experience now just in the context of hanging out with good friends or even of working through a tough/painful issue with a close, trusted recovery friend……and I would be willing to be my last dime that there is absolutely no denial going with her when it comes to this.
And that actually leads me to some important questions that this part of your post raised for me:
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Yes, I am super clean, but I loved the party atmosphere of the streets…so deep and sensual and exciting. I won’t believe anybody who says they were there, rocked with it, and now say they don’t miss the party air. That is denial thru and thru. i have no shame saying so and I have the credentials to back up my words.
First off, let me say that I absolutely do not doubt that you are being 100% honest when you say that you miss that…but my questions, I guess, lie around the issue of why it is that that isn’t enough for you? I mean, why is it that it is not enough for you that your experience partying and your experience that you miss that and that you think that you will always miss is not true enough and valid enough for you to state it just as the fact that it is about yourself? What makes it necessary for you to, not only project it on to every other addict/alcoholic who has ever experienced and loved the party scene, but also to question the self-awareness and the honesty of these people, and, thereby to call into doubt the fundamental quality of their recoveries – since self-awareness and honesty as 2 of the most basic principles upon which solid recovery is based?
I’m only raising these questions because it seems to me that the issues you might discover by trying to answer them thoroughly and honestly – not to/for me or to/for anyone else on this board, but to/for yourself -- might be directly related to the issue of forming deep, meaningful friendships and relationships.
In my experience, in order for me to have any kind of relationship that is beyond a superficial acquaintance, I have to be willing and open to knowing and accepting others…and the truth is that others are not me and that they do not share exactly my experience and exactly my perceptions and they are not all exactly in the same place that I am at on my recovery/spiritual journey. If I go around projecting my experience/perceptions/judgments onto them, then the truth is that I am not ever going to allow myself to know them, and, insofar as I am limiting my ability to know them, I am limiting my access to true friendship. Furthermore, if I, based on my projections, then assume that they are unself-aware and dishonest, then clearly I am not going to be able to trust them and trust is, for me, a must-have if I am going to be friends with or romantically/sexually involved with others….because I am only going to allow myself to be open and honest and present with others to the extent that I trust them…..and that comes back, for me, to “the sweet spot” because, as I said earlier, for me, “the sweet spot” is wherever I am able to be most fully present.
Thanks for reading -- freya
finally, i have the words for the rest of my reply to your great posting earlier. it is worth noting that i had to work thru some personal issues to reach for these words, freya, and for that i thank you, my friend, and i am a better man for it. i have no doubts that you already suspected that i might self-reflect and even hoped for it, methinks, heh heh. i’m very sure any sober party that had you attending would indeed rock.
alright. lets start with in no way do i miss abusing alcohol or drugs. no party exists today that would be in any way superior with that ****. i do not miss being high or drunk or any other intoxication state whatsoever. and i do not like hanging out with people who are drinking either for that matter. heh.
i have been many times to parties where there is no booze no drugs allowed and the place is full of people from all sides of the street, and i do mean the street. we organized them as sober parties and they were a complete success and this was done in the early 1980’s remember please. we also held open recovery meetings and the place was packed solid with well over a hundred people attending weekly was routine simply because we really knew how to throw a sober party! LOL and our recovery meetings were really rocking the place too! we did all that for years [1981-1986] and man, do i miss all that.
in the quote i mention credentials. now is a good a time as any to show them so here they are: i entered rehab and successfully detoxed in summer of 1981. for the next 7 years i lived and breathed that rehab experience like a second skin. it was my entire life, i earned my living with all that, and all my friends were from there as well. i worked and lived in that 14 bed residence with both male and female clients as a therapist and counselor in street level addictions recovery programs. we were total hard core and we expected total real life recovery. we routinely had clients who were on federal parole and probation beefs and clients who otherwise would have done their time in solitary and protective custody populations. we commonly had clients who suffered from clinical mental illness and as if that was not enough we also serviced clients straight off the street. we welcomed the so-called scum of society we turned no one away if they had desire and willingness to change, and get clean and sober, and start living again. the residential program stay was a minimum of six months and we had a phenomenal success rate with those specifically addicted populations. i lived with that population for five years. it was an immensely life changing experience that you simply can not get from any formal education. i have been trained on the front lines and i not only survived i was welcomed and loved by the fellowship simply because i was with my own kind and they saw me for who i really am: a street alcoholic addict. lol.
i quickly began working my way up the ranks. our project director was a clinical psychologist who also held a doctorate degree in divinity and he created a special Gestalt therapy training program for a few hand selected recovering addicts. we were personally supervised and mentored by the good doctor over several years. we received intensive training requiring a residence obligation before graduation was awarded. as a result of that special training i posses unique skill sets as a therapist in advanced addictions recovery and non-clinical street level spiritually based recovery programs. heh heh. all it means is i can expertly evaluate, undertake and support residential real time fellowship, re-program client recovery efforts, and survive alive within a fellowship of hardcore street level addicts in any rehab total abstinence environment. and what that means in every day reality is i can hang with the toughest most treatment resistant street addicts, befriend them, gain their trust, then re-program them with tough love, help them achieve rehabilitation potentials, and then get me out without getting harmed or corrupted by the experience. and then do it all over again without suffering therapist burn out. LOL. try putting that on a everyday resume.
i graduated the top of my mini-class and earned the position of executive program director of my own residential facility. we were part of a million dollar faith-based not-for-profit charity. my own project topped out at over half million dollars over the life of the contract which was funded by public, private, and church monies. i was 5 years sober at the time and been married 1 year. i had a personal staff of three junior counselors and our outreach efforts had a client base of about 50 individuals requiring our services. every thing was very cool for a street drunk like me to be so fortunate and blessed as i was with all that.
well. for specific reasons that will remain untold for now, that franchise project crashed and burned in 1988, and over the next two years the entire operation vanished and that was the end of that. I will say at this point that the program relied heavily on recovered street addicts as staff and executives within the organization. a number of the “core fellowship” became corrupted, and if the core is rotten, well you can do the math as well as i can. the late 70’s and early 80’s grass roots recovery programs are all entirely gone now. sometimes here and there little havens exist, but the momentum is all gone for entirely peer based recovery models, washed away and destroyed by the very street that it sprang up from in which to aid the addicted street populations: the street just reached up and re-claimed its own and them that were dirty crashed and them that were clean walked away. i walked and i am one of the very few who stayed clean and really survived, if you can grok my deeper meaning in what i’m saying when i say i survived uncorrupted.
When it rocked it really rocked. Like most things from that stoner era, it’s just all gone. Been almost 30 years now.... but that is where i originated. So what i’m saying is i partied on the street drunk and stoned and i partied clean and sober and that the party atmosphere is exactly the same drunk or sober it don’t make a difference to the party. As gravity and i discussed in an earlier post the party is still there without all the booze and drugs. it’s all about the people and not about the drugs. its really the people that make the party!
yeah, i am being honest. i am not projecting and i am not invalidating anyone else’s self-awareness or their honesty. I am also not calling into question the fundamental qualities of their recoveries. Yeah self-awareness and honesty are required for solid recovery. i am simply saying that anybody that did not rock with the street party air, well those people would certainly not miss what they never had.
and the other thing is i am speaking about sober and clean persons of today, not active abusers. when our rehab was organising all those meetings and dances and parties -- they were completely for sober and clean individuals and their families -- they were not for abusers and users.
ok, so about me saying it is denial thru and thru. what i simply mean here is we would have some addicts say that they could not party unless they were abusing. and unfortunately some people would score at the meetings and the dances and it really sucked for them after that, and they found out that the party for them friggin' ended right quick. our rehab, full of sober street people, could easily figure out if someone was "cheating" [abusing]. they would be removed by whatever it took to remove them, and then helped or sent back to the street from whence they came. so the denial was really just a justification to relapse. they could have had a rockin' time, or they could have just not joined the party, they had choices. saying they rocked with it, but didn't miss it is just not possible. if it rocked you, you liked it. same as anything else. and you would like sober or drunk depending on personal tastes. me -- i liked [past tense liked] it both ways myself -- but i only do it sober now -- and so of course i like it that way only now. the other path is closed, and i no longer care what i once did almost 30 years ago, at a party somewhere, LOL.
i can not say it too much: we are talking street level recovery, in a rehab run by sober street addicts. we were totally free to run the program as we saw fit, and we ran it like our own personal home and meeting place for sober street addicts. it was like being with all your best friends, hanging out, and saving lives every day. we lived like that for years and it really rocked. the entire cost was all paid, the residents paid not one single dime, and indeed got some weekly spending money to boot. we had waiting lists months long with people all over Canada and the USA waiting for a bed. we had a medical doctor on call when needed, we had special setups with the local hospitals emergency units, we had special codes and signals with the local police, and we even had our own team of street "enforcers" for the really abusing clients that the "authorities" could not touch or manage. i was also responsible as one of the enforcers, and simply put if things got too crazy, we would use "street games" to set things "right again", if you grok my meaning, heh heh. somebody had to do it [i was a natural for it, lol]. it's just one of the realites of having a street level program. it's just the way the real street works is all. it dont really mean anything. of course programs like that no longer exist. we are talking almost 30 years ago.
"I’m only raising these questions because it seems to me that the issues you might discover by trying to answer them thoroughly and honestly – not to/for me or to/for anyone else on this board, but to/for yourself -- might be directly related to the issue of forming deep, meaningful friendships and relationships." -- freya
yeah, i totally agree with all that that above statement reveals, freya. you have a superb ability to zero in on possible conflicts of sincerity and duplicity in my posts. LOL. i enjoy it really and at the same time i know it is from a deep love of your fellow person, and a humble respect for yourself. i thank you for taking the time and effort to offer me your best feedback. i started this thread for exactly what all the posters have given -- their ES&H and their feedback. i was fully expecting to grow and change with the thread as it moved forward.
so back to your statement. even with my present defects and ongoing difficulties i am completely able to form and nourish deep, meaningingful friendships and relationships. i am confident that my two postings have now warmly answered up your concerns and insights from that single original posting you made what now seems ages ago, lol.
freya, thank you. you are most lovingly welcome to be in the fellowship of my own "sweet spot" and please continue to be fully present, for you're like a bright light in a darkened room, and friends like you are always a riot and never a burden.
:ghug2
always loving you now,
Robby
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Hey, Robby, thanks so much for clarifying all of that -- it makes much more sense to me now.....And what an amazing life it sounds like you've had! (lots of things I'd like to hear more about -- especially around the psychology/divinity/gestalt guy and his thinking and practice..Several thinkers I really like/admire have the joint psyche/divinity background.)...and I have some other things I want to say here -- more about relationships in general....but today has been a zoo (in a bad way at work and then in a good way after I got home) and when I finally logged on I got side-tracked by that Higher Power thread, so now it's going to have to wait for another day because I am too tired to make any sense for much longer tonight!
Sleep well, All!
freya
P.S. live: Where's your poem????????????
Sleep well, All!
freya
P.S. live: Where's your poem????????????
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
My pms are full....aren't they always!
I have a thread in mental health titled "For Jenna"...no need to slog through it, the last entry is the poem. I wish it read when I die.
Been busy for a few days...much catching up to do!
Enjoyed reading the last few posts, don't know if I have anything intelligent to say!
oh, and Not MY poem, just sharing my favorite poet/philosopher.
I have a thread in mental health titled "For Jenna"...no need to slog through it, the last entry is the poem. I wish it read when I die.
Been busy for a few days...much catching up to do!
Enjoyed reading the last few posts, don't know if I have anything intelligent to say!
oh, and Not MY poem, just sharing my favorite poet/philosopher.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: NY State
Posts: 114
Having a few 24 hours under my belt...I can honestly say, that I do not miss the bar scene or the street scene. Is this denial, of course not, I have found that recovery has given me a freedom from the depths of hell that the bars and streets gave me. The bars gave me sour smells of alcohol, people loud and obnoxious, black outs, superficial conversation, hangovers, and self disgust at times. The streets gave me danger, guns, violence, lies, deceit, and jail. When I was drinking and drugging, I didn't drink or drug as a game...it was my job, to get as drunk and as high as possible. Bottom line alcohol and drugs took me places I would never have gone to clean and sober. The saddest thing the streets and drugs took from me was that in born fear of danger. After getting clean and sober it took over a year to realize the danger the streets hold and that I was not invincible. I had to train myself to be vigiliant of my surroundings. Today I have no desire to return to my "get-high, get-drunk roots". The monster that sleeps within me is not me, but the addiction that I carry within me. I keep that monster asleep by following a program of recovery, with other recovering alcholics and addicts and my HP. Today I am not a player....I am just Terry C - alcoholic and addict-grateful to be clean and sober today.
Terry C
Terry C
Stopping the Train...
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sevierville, TN - in the valley of the Great Smoky Mountains
Posts: 978
Many times over again I have thought of responding to this thread. Every time I thought I could start I've been at a loss for words simply because the amount of thought and consciousness level was just so far over my mindset at the time I couldn't even think of a place to begin. My head is still on way too crooked.
However, I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and have a renewed deep appreciation for the people who have been placed in my life - and the lives of so many others here - from the people who have chosen to call this place theirs to share their ES&H, care, understanding and knowledge to help those of us who so desperately need it and done so selflessly how can we not accept it and take it for what it is...a helping hand for a step up from the deep we've gotten into. A healthy set of friendships...though as tentative as they still may be in the beginning...which turn into deeper relationships the more we choose to accept it.
There has been a lot validated for me here personally with this thread. I've come to see those of you that have shared in this in a complete new way. It's been some heady reading and sometimes I had to reread it just to make sure I got it...but ya...I believe I do. The quality of people here totally rock! :ghug2
Obi Wan - thank you for starting this wonderful sharing of good souls with good minds.
My Love Always and Gratefully
Ronnie :ghug3
However, I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and have a renewed deep appreciation for the people who have been placed in my life - and the lives of so many others here - from the people who have chosen to call this place theirs to share their ES&H, care, understanding and knowledge to help those of us who so desperately need it and done so selflessly how can we not accept it and take it for what it is...a helping hand for a step up from the deep we've gotten into. A healthy set of friendships...though as tentative as they still may be in the beginning...which turn into deeper relationships the more we choose to accept it.
There has been a lot validated for me here personally with this thread. I've come to see those of you that have shared in this in a complete new way. It's been some heady reading and sometimes I had to reread it just to make sure I got it...but ya...I believe I do. The quality of people here totally rock! :ghug2
Obi Wan - thank you for starting this wonderful sharing of good souls with good minds.
My Love Always and Gratefully
Ronnie :ghug3
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Friendships and Relationships.....for me, there are a few things that I seem to look for when it comes to friendships: authenticity and courage as far as character traits go; an obvious commitment to self-improvement (emotional/psychological, intellectual and spiritual); and the potential for mutual support and to be able to challenge each other to be all we can be.
Part of the problem with all of this has been, for me, I'll meet someone when that person is in the middle of major life changes/growth periods in his/her life and a friendship (or more) starts to develop but then the other person pretty soon reaches some kind of platuea that he/she is comfortable staying at and that just really doesn't work for me. It's taken me a long time to figure out that for, an-awful-lot of people (most of whom weren't raised in a family like mine where self-awarenss and growing and challenging and questioning -- of oneself and of everyone and everything else -- was not only allowed but expected and modeled constantly) the only time that they really work on themselves is when they are in so much pain and/or so frustrated and unhappy in their lives that they feel they have no other choice...and even then, most of the time, they do it only long enough and far enough to take the edge off the pain and get a little relief and then they get complacent and resign themselves once again to being wherever they're at at that point.
I can't do that myself and, because I can't, it just really doesn't work -- for anybody -- for me to remain in relationship with a person who's in that place. I remember back, maybe 15 - 20 years ago, I read a book by this woman who, back in the 60 and 70s had been a real kick-*ss feminst and this book was about the state of feminism in th late 80's probably, but, at one point, she was talking about marriage (and her own marriage even!) and about how "institutionalized intimacy" was actually a necessity for two people to successfully spend their lives together -- and by "institutionalized intimacy" she meant like all the little pre-fab rules and roles one follows within marriage that keep a couple together without them having to really know or be too (truly, deeply) close to each other or to challenge or upset each other or to change in any way that would threaten the relationship.
Now, the writer clearly thought that this was a good and necessary thing -- and I was totally horrified -- like horrifed to the point of "I would friggin' die before I would settle for that life-in-death crap in the context of my most important relationship for the rest of my life!" As far as I can tell, that is not living at all - and it most certianly is not marriage or intimacy. It's a lame-*ss, sorry excuse for people who are too lazy to be and too afraid of being true and real (with themselves or with another) to let them pretend that they have some kind of meaningful relationship.
...and friendships it's pretty much the same thing with me. I once worked at this university where the environment was extremely dysfunctional and abusive. I thought I had some friends there. Turns out the adminstration tried to pull some sh*t -- bad for the students, the learning environment and the faculty but good short-term for the bottom line -- and the faculty, supposedly, got in this uproar.......So far, so good, right???? We had conditions that we wanted met we had things we stood for and blah...blah....blah...turns out, all the administration had to do was offer a good contractual raise and they all rolled over like performing dogs...
Well, I am not quite so talented in the performing dog department, and it just so happend that, very inconveniently, I actually believed in "our" position and that became a big problem...So, the adminstration started up all this crap to try to get rid of me and all of my "friends," while professing to be supportive are too lazy/scare/insecure to do anything. Well, it's a long story, but eventually it occured to me (some Al Anon would have been helpful here!) that it was a stupid waste of my time and energy to be trying to fight/change a situation that, sick and abusive though it was, everyone else in it was willing to go along with to get along in -- and I left.
6 months later my father died....and suddenly I start receiving these calls and these flowers and all this crap from my "friends" at the school. And, really, I was pretty much mind-blown about it because I'm thinking "What kind of person totally sells out everyting that you supposedly stood for together and then sends you flowers because your dad dies????????" I mean, seriously, I have a very hard time getting my mind around that kind of hypocrisy and superficiality.
So, I wasn't returning the calls and I was throwing the flowers away -- not like spitefully or hatefully or anything but just because the absurdity of it all was soooooo disturbing and twighlight-zonish to me.....and one day my aunt saw me doing this and was like "OMG How can you?" And I was like: "Pretty easily because this is all b*llsh*t." And she said: "Well, they are sending you those flowers because that's the socially proper thing for them to do to show they care about you in this situation and it's rude of you to throw them away!"
And that comment of my aunt's was really helpful for me -- because thinking about it made me understand how so much dysfucntion is hidden and protected by social niceities. (Not that I don't like social niceities, because I like them a lot -- but only when they reflect someting real and true and are not just a cover-up for a pile of shi*t!) I mean, here are these people who are too cowardly to stand up for what they know is right and what they profess to beleive in and who, in the process of selling out their values and themselves and their students, for whom they do have some small measure of responsibility, have also sold me out, but it's all supposed to be OK because they do the socially approved thing and send me flowers when my dad dies. And I, of course, am supposed to be just totally grateful for their concern and their "friendship" and we are all supposed to just ignore the reality that it is all one big LIE. No. That is not, for me, what friendship is about...and I'm not at all interested in pretending that it is.
So, anyways, what that whole thing made me see very explicitly -- this had always probably been true, but that situation really made me recognize it consciously -- is that, I really live my life on the edge when it comes to doing what I know is right and people who are persoanly threatened by that or afraid of that to the point that they can't even respect it, let alone do it themselves, are really not suitable friendship material for me.
And, bottom line is, this is the thing that I just cannot do - I cannot do the LIE.....I can't do the "I'll co-sign your ********, so you co-sign mine"...and all-the-while we both know that we are lying, cheating, cowardly, hypocritical losers and we both do each other the huge disservice and the terrible harm of supporting and colluding in each other's denial, rationalization and justification....NO. NO. NO. NEVER! IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! EVER! Please just go bother someone else because there sure as hell are plenty of people out there who will be more than happy to play that little game with you.......
OK...end of rant for now...maybe I shoould have just left it at: "I'm really not an easy person with whom to be friends"???? If it's easy, comfortable, and unthreatening you want, I am not THE ONE!
freya
P.S. And I actually have something also on-topic, but more theoretical and up-to-date that I wrote last night...and it's much more calm and quiet than this...so I'll post it later.
Part of the problem with all of this has been, for me, I'll meet someone when that person is in the middle of major life changes/growth periods in his/her life and a friendship (or more) starts to develop but then the other person pretty soon reaches some kind of platuea that he/she is comfortable staying at and that just really doesn't work for me. It's taken me a long time to figure out that for, an-awful-lot of people (most of whom weren't raised in a family like mine where self-awarenss and growing and challenging and questioning -- of oneself and of everyone and everything else -- was not only allowed but expected and modeled constantly) the only time that they really work on themselves is when they are in so much pain and/or so frustrated and unhappy in their lives that they feel they have no other choice...and even then, most of the time, they do it only long enough and far enough to take the edge off the pain and get a little relief and then they get complacent and resign themselves once again to being wherever they're at at that point.
I can't do that myself and, because I can't, it just really doesn't work -- for anybody -- for me to remain in relationship with a person who's in that place. I remember back, maybe 15 - 20 years ago, I read a book by this woman who, back in the 60 and 70s had been a real kick-*ss feminst and this book was about the state of feminism in th late 80's probably, but, at one point, she was talking about marriage (and her own marriage even!) and about how "institutionalized intimacy" was actually a necessity for two people to successfully spend their lives together -- and by "institutionalized intimacy" she meant like all the little pre-fab rules and roles one follows within marriage that keep a couple together without them having to really know or be too (truly, deeply) close to each other or to challenge or upset each other or to change in any way that would threaten the relationship.
Now, the writer clearly thought that this was a good and necessary thing -- and I was totally horrified -- like horrifed to the point of "I would friggin' die before I would settle for that life-in-death crap in the context of my most important relationship for the rest of my life!" As far as I can tell, that is not living at all - and it most certianly is not marriage or intimacy. It's a lame-*ss, sorry excuse for people who are too lazy to be and too afraid of being true and real (with themselves or with another) to let them pretend that they have some kind of meaningful relationship.
...and friendships it's pretty much the same thing with me. I once worked at this university where the environment was extremely dysfunctional and abusive. I thought I had some friends there. Turns out the adminstration tried to pull some sh*t -- bad for the students, the learning environment and the faculty but good short-term for the bottom line -- and the faculty, supposedly, got in this uproar.......So far, so good, right???? We had conditions that we wanted met we had things we stood for and blah...blah....blah...turns out, all the administration had to do was offer a good contractual raise and they all rolled over like performing dogs...
Well, I am not quite so talented in the performing dog department, and it just so happend that, very inconveniently, I actually believed in "our" position and that became a big problem...So, the adminstration started up all this crap to try to get rid of me and all of my "friends," while professing to be supportive are too lazy/scare/insecure to do anything. Well, it's a long story, but eventually it occured to me (some Al Anon would have been helpful here!) that it was a stupid waste of my time and energy to be trying to fight/change a situation that, sick and abusive though it was, everyone else in it was willing to go along with to get along in -- and I left.
6 months later my father died....and suddenly I start receiving these calls and these flowers and all this crap from my "friends" at the school. And, really, I was pretty much mind-blown about it because I'm thinking "What kind of person totally sells out everyting that you supposedly stood for together and then sends you flowers because your dad dies????????" I mean, seriously, I have a very hard time getting my mind around that kind of hypocrisy and superficiality.
So, I wasn't returning the calls and I was throwing the flowers away -- not like spitefully or hatefully or anything but just because the absurdity of it all was soooooo disturbing and twighlight-zonish to me.....and one day my aunt saw me doing this and was like "OMG How can you?" And I was like: "Pretty easily because this is all b*llsh*t." And she said: "Well, they are sending you those flowers because that's the socially proper thing for them to do to show they care about you in this situation and it's rude of you to throw them away!"
And that comment of my aunt's was really helpful for me -- because thinking about it made me understand how so much dysfucntion is hidden and protected by social niceities. (Not that I don't like social niceities, because I like them a lot -- but only when they reflect someting real and true and are not just a cover-up for a pile of shi*t!) I mean, here are these people who are too cowardly to stand up for what they know is right and what they profess to beleive in and who, in the process of selling out their values and themselves and their students, for whom they do have some small measure of responsibility, have also sold me out, but it's all supposed to be OK because they do the socially approved thing and send me flowers when my dad dies. And I, of course, am supposed to be just totally grateful for their concern and their "friendship" and we are all supposed to just ignore the reality that it is all one big LIE. No. That is not, for me, what friendship is about...and I'm not at all interested in pretending that it is.
So, anyways, what that whole thing made me see very explicitly -- this had always probably been true, but that situation really made me recognize it consciously -- is that, I really live my life on the edge when it comes to doing what I know is right and people who are persoanly threatened by that or afraid of that to the point that they can't even respect it, let alone do it themselves, are really not suitable friendship material for me.
And, bottom line is, this is the thing that I just cannot do - I cannot do the LIE.....I can't do the "I'll co-sign your ********, so you co-sign mine"...and all-the-while we both know that we are lying, cheating, cowardly, hypocritical losers and we both do each other the huge disservice and the terrible harm of supporting and colluding in each other's denial, rationalization and justification....NO. NO. NO. NEVER! IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! EVER! Please just go bother someone else because there sure as hell are plenty of people out there who will be more than happy to play that little game with you.......
OK...end of rant for now...maybe I shoould have just left it at: "I'm really not an easy person with whom to be friends"???? If it's easy, comfortable, and unthreatening you want, I am not THE ONE!
freya
P.S. And I actually have something also on-topic, but more theoretical and up-to-date that I wrote last night...and it's much more calm and quiet than this...so I'll post it later.
Stopping the Train...
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sevierville, TN - in the valley of the Great Smoky Mountains
Posts: 978
Originally Posted by freya
It's taken me a long time to figure out that for, an-awful-lot of people (most of whom weren't raised in a family like mine where self-awarenss and growing and challenging and questioning -- of oneself and of everyone and everything else -- was not only allowed but expected and modeled constantly) the only time that they really work on themselves is when they are in so much pain and/or so frustrated and unhappy in their lives that they feel they have no other choice...and even then, most of the time, they do it only long enough and far enough to take the edge off the pain and get a little relief and then they get complacent and resign themselves once again to being wherever they're at at that point.
Somewhere along the way I got lost in that intellectual gene pool...stopped pushing my own growth at a very young age. A promising student with an "A" average went to smoking pot regularly by the 6th grade, popping cross-tops and had graduated from Shlitz malt liquor to Southern Comfort in that two years from the 4th grade. I was stuck in stupid for a very, very long time after that. I was spiritually, emotionally and intellectually stunted for the next 19 years. No growth but for the next kind of mind altering experiments, how to lie, cheat and push a different kind of envelope and still assume what looked like a normal life. Obviously, this has also, deeply effected friendships and relationships over the years - both those I could not maintain with others nor others with me.
Friendships were only superficial at best. These people were there for a good time...but I grew up with those same superficial friends. Went through every grade together, hung with the same crowd. We wanted to feel like we belonged to something bigger and getting high/drunk/spun was our common denominator. Our philosophical conversations bordered more along the ramblings of Cheech and Chong rather than any kind of intelligent thought.
After graduation we went our separate ways, but I gained a very different set of superficial friends. A more dangerous set. Smarter than Cheech and Chong, for sure. Ones I had to distance out of preservation more than anything else…even more than the alley junkies and users I hung out with growing up. Friends…maybe a couple…but most were simply suppliers and customers and those looking for the freebies. These “Friends” had a real potential of selling you out if things got to close.
It wasn't until the age of 28 that I had removed myself from those ways. I was in an 8-year marriage with 2 children and we left for a new life. I do believe I deeply loved my husband for all the right reasons, but for deeper and darker reasons never new true deep down intimacy. The kind that comes from the core. It was a deep relationship with boundaries I guess you could say. Ours certainly wasn’t a traditional wedding vow-like marriage, but we’ve done good under the bed we’ve made, so to speak. Going on 25 yrs now.
With the move we came out of a life of self-destruction. We began to live some. I began to live some. I began to grow and make what felt like real friends…but with boundaries. Everyone had boundaries. Everyone still has boundaries. More boundaries than warranted these days, probably.
Originally Posted by freya
the only time that they really work on themselves is when they are in so much pain and/or so frustrated and unhappy in their lives that they feel they have no other choice...and even then, most of the time, they do it only long enough and far enough to take the edge off the pain and get a little relief and then they get complacent and resign themselves once again to being wherever they're at at that point.
I’ve grown in many ways over the last 15+ yrs I was almost abstained from everything mind-altering. Gained some intellectual skills…though very sorely underdeveloped. I began to push myself and improve and gained position within the company to running the statistical process control lab. I became involved in the community in animal welfare and rescue and have gained some respect from others in a more honest life. I have a voice I use and people listen. I even write a column for the local paper...as small as it is...it's mine. More people who would push me to push myself and gain more respect for other relationships…but not necessarily friends.
There are all sorts of different kinds of relationships in our daily doings. Many don’t require friendship. Some relationships are just interlocking puzzle pieces connected to part of a larger picture. Some relationships are based on the glue that helps keep your puzzle from falling apart. Those are the deeper ones. The thin layer that keeps us connected. I seemed to have lost some glue…or more likely… never had enough or I would not have had fallen apart. Of course, this takes more than mere friendships. There’s a lot of bankruptcy hiding behind these eyes…but with the guidance from “friends” – I can only hope it will lead to a better balance.
Now again I find myself in a state of reevaluations of friendships and relationships. Being pushed to think some more…and wanting to be pushed. Wanting to push myself. I don’t know how this will ultimately change the views I have about friendships and relationships. These are not ideas I take lightly. I’ve tried to be a better friend for many years. I’ve tried to have good and healthy relationships with those around me…distance the ones that weren’t so healthy. There’s always room for improvement. I try not to be suspicious to quickly…but old ways still haunt the halls. I tend to question until I find the answers I need to either pursue this new relationship that may, or may not, turn into a friendship, or go on without much second thought.
So circumstance - and very early on a string of bad choices – one after another – has dampened my ability to reach this concept of real friendships and deep relationships. As I said earlier...guarded at best.
Adventures In SpaceTime
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by whiskerkissed
I’ve grown in many ways over the last 15+ yrs I was almost abstained from everything mind-altering. Gained some intellectual skills…though very sorely underdeveloped. I began to push myself and improve and gained position within the company to running the statistical process control lab. I became involved in the community in animal welfare and rescue and have gained some respect from others in a more honest life. I have a voice I use and people listen. I even write a column for the local paper...as small as it is...it's mine. More people who would push me to push myself and gain more respect for other relationships…but not necessarily friends.
There are all sorts of different kinds of relationships in our daily doings. Many don’t require friendship. Some relationships are just interlocking puzzle pieces connected to part of a larger picture. Some relationships are based on the glue that helps keep your puzzle from falling apart. Those are the deeper ones. The thin layer that keeps us connected. I seemed to have lost some glue…or more likely… never had enough or I would not have had fallen apart. Of course, this takes more than mere friendships. There’s a lot of bankruptcy hiding behind these eyes…but with the guidance from “friends” – I can only hope it will lead to a better balance.
There are all sorts of different kinds of relationships in our daily doings. Many don’t require friendship. Some relationships are just interlocking puzzle pieces connected to part of a larger picture. Some relationships are based on the glue that helps keep your puzzle from falling apart. Those are the deeper ones. The thin layer that keeps us connected. I seemed to have lost some glue…or more likely… never had enough or I would not have had fallen apart. Of course, this takes more than mere friendships. There’s a lot of bankruptcy hiding behind these eyes…but with the guidance from “friends” – I can only hope it will lead to a better balance.
Ronnie, my ever lovely awesome friend, that is way beautiful !!
Obi Wan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Originally Posted by whiskerkissed
Holiday conversations were always very colorful and often over my head – almost like this thread is. I'm going to give it my best shot here anyway.
Originally Posted by whiskerkissed
There’s a lot of bankruptcy hiding behind these eyes…but with the guidance from “friends” – I can only hope it will lead to a better balance.
Now again I find myself in a state of reevaluations of friendships and relationships. Being pushed to think some more…and wanting to be pushed. Wanting to push myself. I don’t know how this will ultimately change the views I have about friendships and relationships. These are not ideas I take lightly. I’ve tried to be a better friend for many years. I’ve tried to have good and healthy relationships with those around me…distance the ones that weren’t so healthy. There’s always room for improvement. I try not to be suspicious to quickly…but old ways still haunt the halls. I tend to question until I find the answers I need to either pursue this new relationship that may, or may not, turn into a friendship, or go on without much second thought.
So circumstance - and very early on a string of bad choices – one after another – has dampened my ability to reach this concept of real friendships and deep relationships. As I said earlier...guarded at best.
Now again I find myself in a state of reevaluations of friendships and relationships. Being pushed to think some more…and wanting to be pushed. Wanting to push myself. I don’t know how this will ultimately change the views I have about friendships and relationships. These are not ideas I take lightly. I’ve tried to be a better friend for many years. I’ve tried to have good and healthy relationships with those around me…distance the ones that weren’t so healthy. There’s always room for improvement. I try not to be suspicious to quickly…but old ways still haunt the halls. I tend to question until I find the answers I need to either pursue this new relationship that may, or may not, turn into a friendship, or go on without much second thought.
So circumstance - and very early on a string of bad choices – one after another – has dampened my ability to reach this concept of real friendships and deep relationships. As I said earlier...guarded at best.
thanks so much -- freya
Stopping the Train...
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sevierville, TN - in the valley of the Great Smoky Mountains
Posts: 978
You both are making me blush! It's simply amazing what several nights of insomnia can glum up from the depths. The sleep deprived are truly masters of rambling thought...
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