Alcoholism & Toxic Shame
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Alcoholism & Toxic Shame
I have been struggling to get sober again after a relapse 4 years ago after 3 1/2 years sobriety. During my time away from AA I did have some sober periods when I was reading a lot about toxic shame/seeing a therapist. I feel pretty confused now as to how to look on the stuff I read about shame. I don't know whether to try to follow and use what I find in things I read about toxic shame or whether I should just be using the Big Book. Does anyone have any experience with using toxic shame recovery stuff and how to be careful not to fall into self-pity? I'm not trying to offend anyone btw, am just genuinely confused about things. I am not drinking now and really want sobriety.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Originally Posted by adamjhsober 
I have been struggling to get sober again after a relapse 4 years ago after 3 1/2 years sobriety. During my time away from AA I did have some sober periods when I was reading a lot about toxic shame/seeing a therapist. I feel pretty confused now as to how to look on the stuff I read about shame. I don't know whether to try to follow and use what I find in things I read about toxic shame or whether I should just be using the Big Book. Does anyone have any experience with using toxic shame recovery stuff and how to be careful not to fall into self-pity? I'm not trying to offend anyone btw, am just genuinely confused about things. I am not drinking now and really want sobriety.
I'm not familiar with the term "toxic shame." However, I surmise that since toxic means deadly, the the type of shame you describe may have a deadly effect on the one who feels it. You're not offending anyone by being honest about what's going on. One of the mantras of AA of course, is keep it simple. I can only tell you from my experience that it's difficult juggling two or more problems like these at one time.
A very kind lady shared with me early in my sobriety that there's a big difference between guilt and shame. Keeping in mind this was just one person's opinion, I still have to agree with it.
Guilt means I made a mistake.
Shame means I am a mistake.
The fact is, that many of us feel like we are a mistake. Without going in to details, I'll tell you that i haven't felt shame in a long time because I believe that God created me and he doesn't make mistakes.
Wish you the best. Keep coming back!!!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upper Kolobia
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Right Now, I Think It Should Be Just One Day at a Time . . .
JMHO . . .
Gorksi's timetable for recovery runs nine years, minimum, meaning it takes that long to make the behavioral, life, and cognitive changes that are characteristic of a life of serenity where one acquires a certain amount of resiliency to the ups and downs that are part of "normal."
I've done a whole lot of shame-based work, and I believe it freed me of a whole lot of self-defeating behaviors (and probably allowed me to eventually quit smoking), but most of it was from upwards of seven years of recovery onward . . .
As I noted elsewhere, I was doubtless one of the sicker ones . . .
I think a reasonable course--as soon as sobriety is established, and if that means ninety (or more!) meetings in ninety days, then that should be what you do--would be to take an inventory on the relapse, gently looking at your role in it and trying to interrupt the behavioral dynamics as early as possible.
As the books says, "If you want what we have and are willing to go to any length" . . . Sharing what you learned will be helpful to others (the old timers will appear to tune you out, but they'll be listening, trust me; and the scared newcomers will be looking for ways to avoid the trap you fell into); it is a disease we "talk to death."
As for deeper stuff, I've learned to address the shame-based stuff with the basic inventory tools from my first years . . . Where the Big Book talks about fear underlying anger was a profitable area for me to mine . . . Ultimately, I needed a skilled therapist for the "frozen" childhood stuff that John Bradshaw refers to, but unless that stuff is going to get you drunk, I'd hold off for a time, if only because you're still grieving the relationship with your drug of choice and you need a clear head and some perceptual skills to see things as they are. If that stuff is getting you drunk, then probably some long-term residential program with a strong therapeutic community and intensive groups is likely what's called for . . .
Start out, though, with the behavioral maxim "act yourself into well-thinking, not the other way 'round," and go from there.
There's also some excellent material on relapse prevention (Terry Gorski, mentioned above, is one of the seminal authors), and I found that was also useful.
I recall an old article by Clancy I. where he described the early therapy he went through as "ego gratifying" but not conducive to sobriety, and that's strikes me as a realistic assessment of this particular pitfall.
I wish you well,
Gorksi's timetable for recovery runs nine years, minimum, meaning it takes that long to make the behavioral, life, and cognitive changes that are characteristic of a life of serenity where one acquires a certain amount of resiliency to the ups and downs that are part of "normal."
I've done a whole lot of shame-based work, and I believe it freed me of a whole lot of self-defeating behaviors (and probably allowed me to eventually quit smoking), but most of it was from upwards of seven years of recovery onward . . .
As I noted elsewhere, I was doubtless one of the sicker ones . . .
I think a reasonable course--as soon as sobriety is established, and if that means ninety (or more!) meetings in ninety days, then that should be what you do--would be to take an inventory on the relapse, gently looking at your role in it and trying to interrupt the behavioral dynamics as early as possible.
As the books says, "If you want what we have and are willing to go to any length" . . . Sharing what you learned will be helpful to others (the old timers will appear to tune you out, but they'll be listening, trust me; and the scared newcomers will be looking for ways to avoid the trap you fell into); it is a disease we "talk to death."
As for deeper stuff, I've learned to address the shame-based stuff with the basic inventory tools from my first years . . . Where the Big Book talks about fear underlying anger was a profitable area for me to mine . . . Ultimately, I needed a skilled therapist for the "frozen" childhood stuff that John Bradshaw refers to, but unless that stuff is going to get you drunk, I'd hold off for a time, if only because you're still grieving the relationship with your drug of choice and you need a clear head and some perceptual skills to see things as they are. If that stuff is getting you drunk, then probably some long-term residential program with a strong therapeutic community and intensive groups is likely what's called for . . .
Start out, though, with the behavioral maxim "act yourself into well-thinking, not the other way 'round," and go from there.
There's also some excellent material on relapse prevention (Terry Gorski, mentioned above, is one of the seminal authors), and I found that was also useful.
I recall an old article by Clancy I. where he described the early therapy he went through as "ego gratifying" but not conducive to sobriety, and that's strikes me as a realistic assessment of this particular pitfall.
I wish you well,
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I want to thank u adamjhsober for your post. By the grace of God I have nearly 6 months clean and sober. Have just started surfing this website and came across also toxic shame, which is basically me. I am glad I came across your concern about the issue because it tells me just to focus on my recovery in AA right now. In your confusion u r helpin others, thanks
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