elliebean

maybe people look at it different, but since i am starting suboxone today, would that be considered 1 day clean? or when i'm off the subosone do i start counting?

Aysha

I think you will get moxed answers to that. I say its what you think.
To me I dont consider taking prescribed meds as directed as not being clean. Especially if they are helping you. But others may think differently.
I say its how you feel.

elliebean

that's kind of what i thought too..... i am making a conscience decision to stop using. i am making a choice to better my life and get off opiates without too much physical pain (as that is usually drives me to go back once i vow to stop)

so today, folks.... i'm 1 day clean.

eureka

I didn't consider my clean until the day after I got out of detox.

Congratulations on day one.

windysan

You're off dope. That's what counts. Some hardliners my disagree but they can just deal with it.

SteppingItUp

Hello Elliebean!

Are you really sure you want to know?

It is true that this can be a subject of some controversy, but I think it is important to understand both sides while considering the reasons behind them.

I abused drugs (including alcohol) for 12 years. I got addicted to smoking heroin, and I abused that to an exponentially increasing degree for 6 years. When I made the conscious decision to stop, I started taking Methadone to help me through my home detox. My clean date signifies the day after I stopped taking Methadone. That is when I got clean.

The day that I stopped abusing heroin is still extremely significant to me, and I most certainly keep that date close to my heart. Nonetheless, since I was still taking a drug (Methadone), I refrain from considering myself as having been clean then.

You will find other positions that point out the many significant differences that can exist between a person who is actively using street drugs, for example, and a person who is taking Subs (or Methadone). I would suggest that every one of those arguments is valid. The results can be life-changing. However, it doesn't discount the fact that Subs (and Methadone) are, at their core, still drugs.

For myself, I don't entirely subscribe to the idea that the fact that these pills come from doctors makes it a moot point. My recovery is entirely my responsibility. Some doctors know how to help; some don't; some have motives I'd rather not consider; some we can get to prescribe us what we want.

Early on, when I was asking the same question that you have asked now, I was told that your clean date is in your heart. The only thing is, my clean date in my heart...changed. When I was going through that time on Methadone, I most certainly counted the days -- and, make no mistake, they really, truly, completely mattered. I took tremendous strides then. It was one of the most important times I have ever experienced. However, I will suggest that things didn't end there -- the reason they mattered so much is that they helped me to get to the point where I finally got off of all drugs, period. When I stopped taking it, I made a move toward a different life, which is going back to living as nature made me. That is also, at least according to what I have been taught, where recovery can flood in in a way that is different from when a person is chemically altered.

My sponsor has the toughest of terms, even stronger than mine (yes, even much stronger). There are other people I most certainly respect who hold different opinions. I think that's okay.

As far as your own story goes, if you're making legitimate attempts at combating your addiction, and you can make this experience truly work for you, and you head toward a different (as in a much better) life...I think there is a ton to celebrate there. No matter what you call them, those changes do matter.

For the record, nothing I've shared is intended to offend anyone who is on Subs or Methadone, but I am providing this side because, now, months later, I wish I had heard the old-school side early on. I honestly support anyone who is getting better out of addiction. I don't want to attempt to minimize any of that.

Ellie, I fully commend your attempts at change, and for trying to make a better life for yourself. I don't know if I would have had the strength to push out of my addiction without a crutch. I took the road I needed to take. Only I knew what that was.

But, for the sake of understanding, what I shared here is the other side of the coin.

I sincerely wish you a tremendous amount of luck, hugs and good wishes!

I'm really glad you're here!

Now I will step out before I get completely beheaded...

CrackQuack

Who cares what others think? It's not their recovery you have to worry about. It's your OWN. Do YOU feel you are clean. Subs can be part of your recovery, as long as you are taking them as prescribed. Taking a medication, as prescribed, is FINE and you are CLEAN, at least in my book. But like I said, why care what others think? It only matters what you think. Do you think that it is part of your recovery journey or would you consider it something else and you are not clean yet? It's something for you to think about. Maybe that is why you asked, but what we think doesn't really matter. It's a controversial subject, I understand, but I really feel it's also a very personal decision. Steppingitup put it very very well!
I know I would have been clean a lot longer, if they made something for us crack addicts to take in order to curb the cravings. And I don't mean to minimize withdrawals from opiates at all. From what I have read, they are absolutely horrible. I am just saying that some people choose to do it cold turkey and some choose to do it by seeing a doctor and taking a medication. Some people try cold turkey and find they cannot do it and need something to help them off the street drugs. Things like that, that helps to keep you alive and get you off your DOC is a wonderful step towards recovery, and I think most of us can, at least, agree on that part, whether we agree on the clean date or not.
Anyway, what makes you ask this kind of question? How important is the date to you? How important is it, to you, to have a clean date before or after subs? Ask yourself these questions and keep coming back. You'll find the answers you are looking for, along with all the support, information, experience, strength, and hope, here at SR. I am glad you are here Ellie.

Stagebear

What's troublesome about that concept, quack, is that people then expand that. They may stop using heroin but continue to drink or smoke pot and then call themselves "sober" because they get to decide what it means (and it makes them feel better about continued drug use). As a recovering community, we all have an investment in each others recovery and the definition thereof.
Being clean and sober is hard work, it matters that there needs to be a generally accepted definition of what that means.
To the original poster: medications can be effective in recovery. People take antidepressants to elevate their moods, it doesn't make them any less clean.
The crucial defining point with methadone or suboxone or any other drug is that one needs to not monkey with their dose. Taking more or less depending on the day, their mood or whatever, is self-medicating. It's also crucial that the prescribing physician be fully aware of the addict's history. Honesty is the key.
IMHO, providing the person is using medication exactly as prescribed, talking honestly about it with sponsors (if applicable) and works with their physician on an appropriate taper, then it's a useful tool as one strives toward a drug-free life.

bval

I'm on both sides of this fence, so to speak.

If you want to call yourself 'clean' because your on subs instead of oxys, if it HELPS you to do so, then I say ... go for it

Just be aware that in the view of some people, you technically aren't clean ... yet. You're a lot closer to clean, but you're not entirely clean. And that's their (and I won't lie, I'm part of this group) prerogative to apply different standards in our definition.

There's no definitive right/wrong here ... but one thing that would be wrong is would be to pick up an NA clean-time anniversary 'chip' or something of that nature ... when you've been on subs or methadone. Other than that, I say it's all up to you.

Eventually I imagine that, like SIU says above, your clean date is going to change to the date upon which you stopped taking subs ... that will just end up being what you decide makes the most sense. But that's not important right now. Right now, just take only the subs, as prescribed, and your life is going to start getting better

Vintersemestre

I don't think it really matters what you're taking as long as the result of taking suboxone whether for a week or the rest of your life improves your situation and is less dangerous than whatever you were doing before. If you were shooting street heroin it's a lot better, obviously. The only thing I'm interested in is seeing less harm, death and misery from drug use and prohibition.

change4penny

Ellie, Hi, I'm a recovering opiate/cocaine addict, 13 months....clean, yes, I said clean. Even though I'm still on Sub, I consider myself clean and this is why: I'm no longer stealing, lying, bankrupting my family, destroying my soul by swallowing 30, 10mg of hydro, or oxycodones each day. No longer snorting/smoking $150-300 of cocaine each day. I am living a life of recovery, staying on the Sub because my addiction doctor says to do so. He suggested that I stay on them due to the fact that I had a very long, hardcore addiction to pain pills, more than ten years. For once, I'm gonna listen to someone else, instead of doing things my way.
Do not let anyone tell you that you are not 'clean'. As long as you are taking them as prescribed and working a program, it's my opinion that you are clean.
A lot of people who are in recovery are given anti-depressants for anxiety and depression, does that mean they aren't clean?
Don't get caught up in this, worrying about whether or not taking Sub means that you're clean or not. Recovery is more than just abstaining from drugs, it's a 'life makeover'. It the desire to not go back to that old way of life.
But, also remember, without that desire to truly be clean, and having some sort of program in place, the Sub will not work....it will become just another pill.

Good luck to you and God Bless.

Penny

change4penny

By the way, when some people are speaking of having a 'clean date' and changing that when you come off the subs, to me that's ridiculous. Like I said, as long as you take them as prescribed and turn away from that old life, it's my opinion that when you do this, that's the date you should remember. Let your new life, speak for itself!

Penny

TheSunAlsoRises

I'm more of an alkie but congrats on starting a new life... You will still have the mental obsession to deal with... but if you stay off street drugs you will realize it is the best decision you have made

jason090883

yayyy ellie!! it is day 1 more me too!! its cool that I found someone who is just starting and in the same age group as me

bval

I dunno, I just find myself in disagreement on the subject of muddying the waters on what 'clean' means.

I too was on subutex for 7 months. During that time I was no longer stealing, lying, bankrupting my family, destroying my soul by snorting 240-400mg of oxycodones each day. I was no longer snorting/smoking speed each day. I stayed on the Sub because my addiction doctor said to do so.

However, I also had a few beers (literally like 10 total) during that time, one time I even got kinda drunk. I smoked maybe 3 joints total. One time I got a 1/2G of speed and stayed up for two nights, that was early on. Two other times I took 2 ritalyns and caught a bit of a buzz. One time I had to be on a very small dose of oxys for a couple days cause I ran out of subs and my doc was out of town, but I didn't abuse them. Basically I was only on the subs at least 95% of the time.

IOW, my drug use went WAY WAY down from what it was before while on subs. When the time came I then proceeded to wean down and get off of subs, and have never gotten loaded again since then. I suppose, esp. given the outcome, I could bend the rules and consider myself to have been clean during that time, since I met nearly all of the criteria you outlined above, Chery. But I don't.

And I humbly suggest that, until you personally are actually off of the subs, that you don't declare the idea of changing your clean date to when you DO ... to be a 'ridiculous' idea. Trust me, it's far from ridiculous. You'll understand what I mean when you get there ... which I know you will

windysan

if you bath regularly i consider you clean

CrackQuack

I meant for this particular subject, and in this case, I would not care what others think because it's ME who needs to be well, but I just can't do it cold turkey because the withdrawals are really horrible (I am guessing, since I haven't had experience with opiate withdrawals). Or they get so bad that I just end up going out to use. My doctor prescribes this medication, that if, taken as directed, would ease the pain and help me stay away from the junk that would kill me. In no way was I ever suggesting that people could trade one drug for another. I tried that. I switched to weed, back in January, only to get stoned and think what a great idea it would be to get some crack to smoke with my weed. Not so great idear..
But also, we do get to decide what our recovery means for us. In the sense that whatever path you choose, be it with a doctor's supervision, therapy, meetings, inpatient, outpatient, or just with family and friends. I totally agree we do each have an investment in each other and that is why I love SR. We're all here for each other..
Not that I approve, but I know a heroin addict who won't go near that stuff, or any opiate, but will have a drink with friends and does toot a few lines now and again. I've explained to her that kind of behavior could lead to darker places, and told her it's not real recovery, but she insists she's not looking for that. She wants to still party and have fun, just not be an addict. Which really confused me. She went to meetings and all that jazz. Now, that, I would consider NOT clean. But I would consider someone, under doctor's supervision, and taking the subs as directed, clean. It would not be any different, in my eyes, than when I take my vicodins, as prescribed, during that time of the month, for my pain. Or taking OTC cold medication (and I get the good stuff, with that psuedenephrine, however you spell that) as directed when I am ill. I think that kind of thing is kind of personal as a part of a person's recovery and they really should make the decision for themselves, as to whether or not they consider themselves clean. It's also fine to get other's opinions, but to dwell on it or worry about it would be too much stress, IMNSHO.

CrackQuack

The problem I see with this isn't the subs. You admitted to drinking, smoking a few joints, doing speed and ritalin. THAT part is not clean and not working a program. And, I respect your opinion, but you really were not clean during that time and rightly did not count it as clean time. However, if someone is on subs, and subs only, working a program of recovery with their doctor and whatever else they chose, in order to stay clean, they truly are clean, IMO. Like I said, it would be no different than taking my vicodins as prescribed, or someone taking anti-depressants as prescribed. As long as it's taken as prescribed and the person is totally honest and abstains from ALL drugs NOT prescribed to them. No one will prescribe alcohol, weed, or speed (maybe the ritalin, if they have the ADHD) to help an addict get off of dangerous street drugs. It's why the medical world made things like the subs and methadone. And made it pretty dam med difficult to get, in most cases. I know Ohioans have to jump through a lot of hoops to get methadone treatment. You really have to want to get off the illegal stuff BADLY.
Anyway, you couldn't, technically bend the rules, and consider yourself clean. Having alcohol is the iffy part, as everyone has different views on that as well, but doing speed, ritalin, and weed, definitely pushes out any chances of being able to consider oneself clean during that time period. I reset my clean date when I smoked weed or tooted vicodins last year. Heck, I was so desperate to not smoke crack, and didn't have a sense of working a program yet, that I was doing my vicodins right and left, going to meetings loaded.. Ugh. I am so glad I got my head on straight, and started working a good program. And realized I was abusing my vicodins. I take six a month, at that special time, when the pain is really bad. I take so few, I get only 20 at a time, per refill. But even if we only abuse the drugs once, it counts against your clean time. I can drink, I've never had a problem with alcohol. Well, except for the part about it lowering your inhibitions. And that's the part that got me into trouble because I gave in and tried crack when I was feeling buzzed from Jager. And that is why I won't drink. I cannot go to AA meetings, because I will not make the commitment to not drink. I may or may not in the future. If I did, it would be only with my boyfriend because I completely trust him. I KNOW he won't whip out a crack pipe and ask me to smoke it with him. He doesn't smoke anything. LOL.
Anyway, everyone does have their different opinions and I really hope for none of this to get out of hand. Just like we may disagree with you, we will respect you for your opinions, even if we think changing clean dates just because getting off of subs is a rediculous idea. It's not meant to offend you, or anyone else. We do think it's silly, because it's our opinions. Just like you feel it's not silly because it's your opinion. I hope I am conveying what I am trying to say, correctly. IDK. I just don't want us to get into an arguement over it... It's why I came out swinging with "Why care what anyone else thinks?" Cause I can tell this topic is kinda like politics, religion, and abortion. HOT BUTTON. LOL.
In fact, I think I am going to start another topic, similar to this one, to get opinions on something that recently happened to me. I KNOW, in my heart, what is right, and I don't want people to argue or get heated over it, but I DO want to know if others have had a similar experience and maybe share their thoughts on the whole debacle.. So here goes. UGH!

bval

First off ... the last 1.5 months I was (weaning down) on subs, I didn't take any drug but subs. I *could*, if it MATTERED at ALL, say that I have another 1.5 months clean before the day I actually marked it ... that being, the last day I took a subutex. Is going around saying I've got 31 months instead of 30 months clean-time going to help me in any way? Of course it will not. So that's part of why I wouldn't do it.

But it's also because to ME (emphasis on 'to ME'), 'clean' has a specific definition. It means no opioid replacement therapy, as well as no drinking, no speed, no weed, nothing mind-altering. Ritalin as prescribed for legitimate(!) adhd, or painkillers as prescribed because you are literally in excruciating pain, for a short time (and after a period of truly being clean)... those are debatable situations. Anti-depressants as prescribed, caffeine, nicotine, those are okay in my book, cause they don't get you high ... but some people think that's not really clean, and I wouldn't deny them their opinion. I see a point there.

I feel like, if you go around using the term 'clean' to describe people on drug-replacement therapy, then you have no word left to describe them when they achieve the next level ... which is, of course, when they get OFF of DRT.

What it comes down to for me is this: What's the incentive to ever get off of DRT, if you can call yourself already 'clean' ... when you're on it?

Going on DRT, and quitting getting loaded ... to me those are steps TOWARD 'getting clean'. Great steps, solid steps, clearly in the right direction. But they are not the same as being 'clean'.

I'm sorry, but that's where I stand on this. I'm not saying I'm 'right' and others are 'wrong', though. Far from it. This is just my opinion, and I'm not telling anyone else they have to feel or think the same as I do.

Bottom-line, I'm very cool with agreeing to disagree on what 'clean' means

But I am going to re-iterate ... if you live for a while on subs, and then you get off of them, and go through that whole experience ... you are going to feel more attached to the date you quit taking them than you felt towards the day you quit snorting oxys or shooting heroin ... and started taking subs. That later date will *become* more important to you, and you almost certainly eventually feel like it's the far more important date to mark.

And do you know why this is? Because getting onto subs from dope is a friggin walk in the park compared to getting off of subs and beginning to actually live an opioid-free life. I don't want to downplay anyone's accomplishment for getting onto subs, again, it's a GREAT step in the right direction, and I'm 100% a PROponent of subs in many situations.

But trust me when I tell you from 1st hand experience ... in the long run, getting completely OFF of opioids is a much more important life-event than the day you switched from illegal opioids to legal ones.

So ... if you haven't been through the whole experience of opioid addiction/using subs/quitting subs, then you DON'T KNOW what I am talking about here. Therefore, I think you show some reticence about proclaiming something like this as being 'ridiculous' ... when you haven't experienced it.

change4penny

I find that the ppl that disagree with use of Subs as being not clean are the ones that had not succeeded and did not use the subs as they were intended to be used and as prescribed. Those same ppl abused the subs or used other drugs while on the subs.
Just because they didn't work for some, doesn't mean they can't work for others.
Also, because a person is using antidepressants for depression...and a lot of ppl in rehab are given antidepressants.....does this mean that they can't start their 'clean time' until they no longer take them?
I just don't think that it matters, as long as you take them with the intentions of being clean....taking them as prescribed to the T...not obsessing over them and working a program that leads you towards a life of recovery.

Penny.....recovering opiate/cocaine addict....13 months FREE and CLEAN