lethlap

Hey all! I am new here, and trying to learn my way around. I am a recovering opiate addict and am currently trying to get off suboxone.My Dr. wont help me and I am having a hard time finding much info on the internet. I have tapered down to .5 mgs. every other day, but I cant get thru the withdrawl to go completely off. Is there anyone out there in the same boat? I could really use someone to talk to about now.

CarolD

Welcome...
I see you are off line now
but wanted you to know that members will reply
as they see your thread.

hopeful62

How long were you on suboxone? I'm on a six-week taper. I did great for the first few weeks, now on 2mg and having some problems dropping. Nothing really bad, nothing like c/t w/d, but now having to deal with a little discomfort. My plan is to get to .5 or .25 mg every other day, then every third day. I don't have 2mg tablets, only 8mgs, so unless I go back to the doctor, I have to deal with titrating the 8mgs as best as I can. I think that if you've been on for a long time you may need a long taper. I don't know that I can give you first hand advice but good luck and let us know how you do.

Here is a suggested taper schedule I found on another site:

Once i got to my lowest dose which was something like 0.2mgs i skipped days.

The plan looks something like this:
Day 1: 0.4mg
Day 2: 0.4mg
Day 3: 0.2mg
Day 4: 0.4mg
Day 5: 0.2mg
Day 6: 0.4mg
Day 7: Miss a dose
Day 8: 0.2mg
Day 9: 0.2mg
Day 10: 0.2mg
Day 11: 0.2mg
Day 12: 0.2mg
Day 13: Miss a dose
Day 14: 0.2mg
Day 15: 0.2mg
Day 16: 0.2mg
Day 17: 0.2mg
Day 18: Miss a dose
Day 19: 0.1mg
Day 20: 0.1mg
Day 21: 0.1mg
And so on until you get to the last one . The plan is only approximate, you could do
it over a longer length of time if needed or short.

This person said that he did experience w/d symptoms but nothing like c/t. I guess that if you're looking for a painless detox, that might not happen depending on how long you were on opiates and then how long you've been on suboxone.

Best

hopeful62

Here's another that I found that might be more useful:

Day 1-4 .5 / .25
Day 5-8 .25 / .25
Day 9-12 .25 / .125
Day 13-16 .125 / .125
Day 17-23 spread .125mg doses further apart, trying to get to every 24 hours
Day 24 jump

Since I'm still trying to make the move from 3mg to 2mg/day, I can't give any personal experience . . . YET! I'm very determined, I know I'll be there soon.

lethlap

Thank you for redirecting me carol! I have been on sub for almost 3 years. I am at the point now where I can take .5mg every 48hrs or longer. the longest I have been able to go is 51hrs. THe first 24 hours I am fine, moving closer to the 48 hr mark I start haivng mild to moderate withdrawl, but still doable. What is getting me every time is when I get what I call acute withdrawl. When the muscles in my body start to spasm so hard that there is no comfort to be found and I cant think straight. I am very confident in what I am doing up to that point. I am also recieving no help whatsoever from my dr. and she told me to taper 2mg for a week then 1 mg a week then just stop. When I tried that it really scared me. So I called her office again and she said I needed to see a shrink! I am sure that is true but that wont help me get thru this withdrawl. I have 3 daughters ages 18,12, and a 2 yr. old and I am a mess. I am getting desperate, and thinking about things that should not be in my head after almost 3 years under my belt. The reason I went to rehab in the first place was because I was withdrawinf off of 10 mg of methodone, and could not do it so on christmas eve (yep I ruined it for everyone) I went to rehab and have been on sub ever since. I am really upset that the dr. did not better prepare me for this. she said I MIGHT feel some mild withdrawl. Very little of what is happening with me is mild. I am really sorry I dont know how to post and that my messages look like run on sentances, like I said I am new at this. Hey Hopeful62, how on earth are you spliting the pills smaller than .5? My pills were 2mg to start with and it was hard to get them to the .5 mark, I tried to split one of those and it basically crushed it. I have 3 .5 mg pills left, scary huh? I also read on another site that you should try to only take your dose once a day when you are tapering so that you dont reinforce addict behavior by having to have more in the afternoon? I always had taken 2 dose a day, but I have found that doing the one time a day seemed to help. Thank you hope to talk to u all very soon, I just hope it is not because I am using or in the hospital again.

hopeful62

I haven't gotten to that point yet of having to split to less than .5. I'm still on 1mg am, 1mg pm. I've gotten those by taking an 8mg and splitting it in half three times. Easy for a woman with nice fingernails! I think that cracking it with fingernail assistance helps prevent crushing better than using a knife, which is a totally different type of stress (engineering stuff). Past the 1mg, I think I'll mix it with water, 1 mg into 10ml, so that each .1 mg is 1ml (or 1mg into 20ml of water, so .1 is 2ml, whichever seems best at the time). I'll use a diabetic syringe, not advisable if that's a trigger but for me my iv drug use is so far in my past that I'm actually afraid of needles these days. The dog supply stores online have syringes with no needles, or you could use a medicine dropper. I'm cheap, so want to use what I already have. I've been doing my dose 2x a day, but will drop to once a day at some point. I will always have addict behavoir, even when sober, so reinforcement of my dope fiend ways isn't really an issue, lol!

I think it is wrong of these docs to say that this is a miracle drug and you won't have w/d. It's a lie . . . I wonder if some intentionally misguide for increased profits.

Good luck . . . if you don't care about yourself, that's fine, but I hope that you pull it together for those kids. Mine were in utero and age 5 when I quit. They definitely paid a price.

lethlap

I know my kids have been in the cross hairs of this whole thing. It was especially hard on my 18 yr old who was 15 when I went into rehab. It is scaring her now because seeing me in withdrawl is probably just as hard for her as it is for me. She is going to school for nursing now and has beed trying to find information on sub, but so far no luck. Most people around here have never heard of it, or if they have are still in complete awe of it, just like I was till now. There are a few things about sub I dont understand, maybe you have heard? First of all if it is an actual opiate why doesnt it show up in the UA? I am also tring to figure out the strength of it. Like if you have 4 5/500 vics that is the same as having 2 10/500. I am trying to figure out what the strength is of the sub compared to other drugs. The reason I want to know is because these crumbs of sub are running my life right now. When I was on methodone I thought that 10mg was a small amount and that I could walk off. WRONG! No one told me that I couldnt, but I figured it out! lol! I have also seen some that are of the opinion that the narcon in the sub blocks your endorphines and that keeps your body from feeling good and producing its own when you try to taper off. Some think that has something to do with why it is so hard and why the withdrawl is so much worse. It makes sense but I dont know how much truth there is to it. I have also read different opinions on the half life of sub, i have seen 37hrs up to 72 hours. I hope the first is true, I am just trying to prepare myself for what ever is coming next. I am gonna try again to make 72 hours, but I am not as sure of myself as I had been. Hopeful62, Can you tell me again how to make the sub into a liquid? I am not understanding it very well. Thanks again, I am glad I have at least one person to talk to!

hopeful62

I haven't turned it into a liquid yet, will do that tomorrow and let you know how it works for me. I'll do my normal dose as a liquid.

My plan - 1 mg sub dissolved into 10ml water. Now 1ml = .1mg; 5ml = .5mg. If it is too much liquid, I'll use less. I'll let you know tomorrow how it goes.

So, if you have tablets cut into .5 mg doses, one .5mg tablet would go into 5ml water. Now 2.5 ml is .25 mg's.

I'd be pretty freaked out if I only had a couple left and was forced to detox quickly. The doctors in my area are not so non-negotiable; in fact, one website specifically states that they find it is best if the patient decides when to jump off. Obviously when forced to quit, it's a set up for failure. Much better if the patient feels comfortable and confident. Could you check on the internet and call around? I found one in my area that charges $55 a week plus cost of meds, but I think that the first appointment (evaluation) is more expensive.

I don't know the equivalents for sub vs other opiates, but I would try not to focus on that so much. Instead, focus on the fact that you've been SUCCESSFUL so far, and are very, very close to being off! You made it 72 hours before, I know you can do it again.

I'd suggest Al Anon for your child. I wouldn't fret too much about the past, nothing you can do now about the past except change your present and future. You can be proactive in your own sobriety and emotional recovery, and give your children the support they need to recover as well. I think that the 12step programs have some programs geared towards children or teens, maybe someone who is more familiar can jump in.

butterflylover

Congrats on being clean for almost 3 years! And welcome! Bvalajo will be around. He's a pro on the Suboxone topic. Best of luck.

lethlap

Well I am almost 48 hrs in without sub now so if it is true about the 37hr. half life I am guessing it is all out now? If it is not till 72 hrs, then it is still in my system. I dont want to seem like I am obsessing over this hour thing, or that I am counting the hours till I can take my sub. I am not, I am just trying to educate myself and prepare for whatever comes. Can u die from withdrawl? Or do you just feel like it? I have cut down on my caffiene and salt (it is supposed to help with the anxiety and rapid heartbeat?) and have increased my protein (I read that will help with your endorphine production?) I also want to be honest here and say that I am on several other meds. I take buspar, seroquel, roserum, elavil, and wellbutrin (when I started the tapering I decided I would stop smoking also, I can tell u right now that was WRONG!) I will say I do not smoke as much since I am dropping down on the sub. Maybe it is in my head but it seems when I smoke now it makes me yawn more? I assume that is just a symptom of withdrawl. Anyone else experiencing that? And yes hopeful62 I will be calling my dr. again on monday and seeing what she suggest I do and if I have to I will find another dr. the only reason I dont have one already is because whrn I am not in acute withdrawl I feel like I can do this. But then when the acute hits and I take the sub I am sooo incredibly upset that I was not able to go longer. I have gone from 12mgs a day to well right now .5 mg every other day, I started tapering in Sept, so its Dec now, so I have been trying to do this for almost 4 months. Omg, I just now figured that out, bummer. O by the way I do have a bit of good news, its not all doom and gloom, I have noticed a mind blowing increase in my sex drive! When I got down to 2mg a day is when I noticed it.I was almost freaked out by it, I had not felt that way in a long time! My husband just took all the credit for it, thinking he is a stud, and who was I to burst his bubble. So there is my one good thing, but that is slowing down as the withdrawl gets worse, but I am happy to have that part back and it has definately brought my husband and I closer. I will talk to you all tomorow, cross your fingers!

lethlap

Hey how do we find Bvalajo?

Peter

You could send him a pm(private message)

bval

Well, I'm not qualified to give out medical advice (right, Peter?), but I would tend to say that you've done everything right so far based on my experiences.

You are right, it is highly unlikely you will die from opioid detox, unless you have extenuating medical conditions that make you susceptible to dehydration, which is the only potentailly life-threatening aspect of detox that I'm aware of, but do ask your doctor. Yes, it is very normal to FEEL like you're gonna die, though. It's caused by excess adrenaline that your brain has been producing all these years to counteract the CNS depressant effect of the opioids in your system, and it takes a while without them in your system before it can come back into balance. The net effect of this is something like speed, i.e. insomnia, anorexia (not wanting to eat), and a generalized sense of panic.

If you've been down to .5mg every other day for awhile, I think it's time to pull the plug, myself. To be honest, you really don't want it to be 'too easy'. No offense, but, seriously, you are being a bit of a baby if you honestly can't tough out stepping off at this dose I quit at 2mg/day, and while it was no picnic, I did it at my mom's house, under her 'lock and key', and I made it through okay.

You can do this thing, trust me, you are just freakin yourself out about it. You need to set yourself up for success. Make yourself accountable to the people around you, tell them you ARE quitting no matter what, and ask for their help, i.e. try to get someone to watch over you. Stock up on hydrating fluids, immodium, advil, and maybe some unisom or nyquil, and you should be good to go.

And btw, half-life means just that. It means that if a drug's half-life is X hours, then after X hours, HALF of the drug is gone from your system. So, if you take 8mg at hour 0, then at hour X you have 4mg left in your system. And since the half-life we're talking about here is numerous DAYS, you also have to take into account the dosages you took on day -1, day -2, etc.

But all of that stuff is fairly academic, because it really only matters in terms of how long it takes for you to start feeling crappy. The recovery process has a lot more to do with your brain/body returning to producing normal amounts of endorphins and adrenaline than it does with the mathematics of the drug leaving your system.

In any case, sounds like you are on your way now, so best of luck, hang in there, and maybe start thinking about hitting some NA or AA meetings as soon as you're able to leave the house, okay?

In a Tailspin

Lots of great info on here about Subs.......

I have a question for Hopeful62.........

I am an RN with an addict BF who is currently about a week and a half into Subs therapy. I'm curious if you have tried the dose dissolved in liquid, which I believe you were going to do for the first time today, and how that worked for you. Did you swallow the liquid or hold it under your tongue? I ask because the research I've done on-line led me to believe that the Narcan is activated if taken any way other than sublingually.........and when he gets the the end of a wean process, I'd like to draw from your experience!! (cheating, I guess.........but I hope you don't mind!) I know with the pills you simply keep them under your tongue until dissolved......but if you're holding the liquid with dissolved pill under your tongue......how long do you hold it there to make sure you've absorbed all the med?

Ok, I think that's all for now. I'll go back to my Friends and Family Forum. Thanks for letting us draw from your experience.......and good luck to all you in your recovery.

lethlap

Thank you everyone for your input I really do appreciate it and will take it all to heart. Bvaljalo I completly understand what you are saying about being a baby but what I dont think you understand is that I dont have someone to lock me in a room and watch over me. I am 38, a mother of 3 girls ages 18,12, and 2. My 18 year old is buried in college and her job, my 12 year old, well obviously she cant nor should she help, and I am trying to potty train my 2yr old. My husband is very supportive, when actually see him, but his work schedule starts at 5am and he is never home before 6pm and more often not till about 10pm. I have no brothers or sisters, and the one person that I could count on to get me through this was my mom and I recently lost her to cancer. Plus my husband just lost his grandmother last weekend and a friend of his this week! We are all exhausted. I have no babysitter for my 2 yr old so going to meetings is simply out of the question right now. I am in Indiana and even if I did have a sitter it is between 20 and 30 outside now so I would not take her out in that unless I had to. There are NO meetings in the town I live in, it is so small we dont even have a walmart. The closest place for meetings is about 30 minutes away and i have never found one I could take my kid to and like I said I dont have a sitter, so here I am. I will say that I went to rehab and I completed 8 weeks of IOP, so I have had some counseling. I also was part of a sub group once a month at my dr office which I thought was helpful sometimes and sometimes more of a trigger. Watching my mom die from cancer was bar none the most painful thing I have ever gone through in my life. Before she died she was on 100mg morphine x sometimes 3 or 4 times a day, and guess who gave it to her because I have NO help? The addict of the family, me. Dont get me wrong even if I had help at that time I would not have taken it my mom only had one kid and that was me and I only had one mom and that was her, so of course I took care of her. My point here is if that didnt throw me off the wagon, NOTHING will.. I just think that I have chosen the wrong time to get off the sub. I am setting myself up to fail,and I cannot do it on my own, and right now no one can help me. If I had help I probably would not be talking to you guys, right? I will get off of this med and I will not relapse, but now is just not the right time for me and I am ok with that. Maybe I will have to wait till the baby goes to school or till the 12 yr old is old enough to watch her when I am in another city, who knows? I just want to make sure I have all the support I need in place. (and maybe when it is warmer out so I cant get outside for some air) I am sorry if anyone thinks I am making excuses or that I am not sure if I want off, I do.

bval

If the timing isn't right, then I'd say you're wise to wait. That's kind of the point of being on subs, in a way. Harm reduction until you're ready and able to quit. Sounds like you've already thought through your options, so, I apologize about my remark earlier.

Honestly, though, as long as you keep it at this dose (or go even lower), when the time does come around, it's really not going to be *that* rough, as long as you can get more support, and can take some time off to just get yourself well. I have a pretty good feeling that it's the level of responsibility you have right now that makes the idea seem so overwhelming, why it's been tough for you to do in your attempts thus far. Whenever you find a way to remove the pressure, and just focus on your healing for a bit, I promise you that it's going to be do-able getting off at the dosage you're describing.

Also, tailspin, NO, the narcan (aka naloxone) TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE is not 'activated' by swallowing a suboxone 'solution'. However, there's also no need TO swallow after one is done holding the drug in one's mouth for awhile. Both bupe and narcan are basically destroyed by stomach acid, and that is why you have to do the pill sublingually, so the drug passes directly into the bloodstream. So, you can just spit after 20 or so minutes of absorbing the bupe through the membranes of your mouth, cause swallowing wouldn't change a thing. But, please, ask a doctor for clarification on these points. This is again, just my own understanding, based on my own experiences and research.

YouveGotStyleKi

Hey brother (or sister). I feel your pain. I just got out of a treatment center today after spending 21 days with some of the most amazingly courageous and likeminded people I've ever met. Before I went in 21 days ago (21 days clean! Most in almost 6 years!), I was also on a Suboxone taper program, and it did not work out well at all. My best advice is to either tough it out, go into a program, or find some way to get Librium and Catapres. Just enough for like 4 days. These drugs helped IMMENSELY in getting me off the Subs/Oxy/heroin. Then I highly suggest you get into the NA fellowship. Honestly, I know it seems so stupid (I thought so 2 years ago when they preached it in the local rehab), but there's nothing more therapeutic than talking to someone who's in the same **** you are. Almost everything they talk about completely hits home with me, and I'm so angry with myself for not trying this out before.

I really hope this helps man (or woman).

cracker15

Congrats on getting down to .5mg every other day, that is great. I have detoxed off of suboxne several times before with almost no withdrawl symptoms but I am having a feeling this time is going to be different being that I have been on it for a longer amount of time and started off at 32 mg after this last screw up. I just wish I was at where you are at now. I just dropped down to 1mg and am starting to feel slight W/D's, it sucks but I am gonna have to stay with it if I want my body to get used to this dosage as fast as possible. Being that I am not working really at the moment or at least until January I want to kick this stuff before the month is up. I am hoping to be at .5 mg every other day in the next week and a half or so. We will see how it goes it will pry be longer than that. One suggestion I may have for you is too possibly change your dose to right before you go to bed. That way when the 48 mark comes up take an extra dose of seroquel and try and sleep as much as you can the next morning. That should help add an extra 12 hours onto the 48 you are getting. By about 60 hours you should be in the mist of the worst of it. You may find out it is all in your head. You can also ask your Dr. for a prescription to clonidine. It is a blood pressure messure medicine used commonly to treat opiate withdrawl. This will help take away or make many of the symptoms less severe. In the end though you r probably not going to have any other choice but to experience a little withdrawl, heck this is a lot better than what it could be. You can do it if you really want too.

cracker15

Keep us all posted on what you decide to do.

Best of luck

hopeful62

In A Tailspin . . . I did my dose in water for the first time today. I think it's fine. But, I was wrong about the dose sizes. The syringe I'm using is a 1ml, not a 10ml. So each increment is .1ml, rather than 1ml. I dissolved 1mg into .3ml of water, and that was good for one dose. I'd recommend trying it with water first to see what the ideal single dose would be for you. Swallow first so that your mouth is dry, squirt the solution under your tongue, and hold it there. I think BV is correct, nothing affected and doesn't matter if it is swallowed or spit out. But I hold it in my mouth as long as I can to make sure I get all the meds. With small doses like 1mg, not much there to begin with, especially as I'm using 8mg tablets cut into tiny pieces.

I had problems going from 3mg to 2mg, have been on 3mg for a week now but will drop to 2mg tomorrow.

Lethlap, how are you doing?