recovery I think!
 

I would rather cut grass! Overhaul an engine...anything. I don't mind helping but every day gets old.

Observations
 

At the cost of getting booted, I have come to some interesting observations.
Having spent a few weeks in the recovery chat room, I had the opportunity to listen and interact with a few members. What I have observed is quite disturbing. I can't speak from the view of an alcohol user, but have used enough pills to understand addiction. Over the course of my using, I ingested over 15,000 pills!
I have a hard time when I hear a person put down a drug or alcohol and then goes back. I have no desire. Maybe it's just me. To me, it seems as though some are waiting for an excuse to go back and they never really put it down. Excuses abound. I have a dozen excuses to go back to pills if I want to: bored, depressed, euphoria, forget my problems, etc. But I DON'T! They are no longer a part of my life! It was a phase, however long, but a phase, and it's over.
Then we have the step programs. You would think those involved in such programs would be the most moral, wonderful people you could meet. Far from it. Though God is mentioned in several of the steps, most are antagonistic to God and Christians. I've had numerous "discussions" with those who are repulsed by Christian theology. Yet in their step program they are taught to "trust God, turn problems over to Him, etc." What hypocrisy!
So what's the point of following steps. Do you pick and choose the ones you want to folllow? I don't think it works that way.
Again, maybe it's me. Most I've met are adults. Yet they need someone to hold there hand. I did no meetings, no sponsors, no excuses! Put the crap down and walk away. If not, then you are not committed to your recovery. I've been to a few meetings to observe. You hear failure stories and reassuring comments. Don't friggin fail! Life is hard. Problems abound. I have a ton of them. I can't work, live in constant pain, finances in shambles. So I could swallow some pills and forget all about it, until they wear off, or I can deal with them the best I can. If depressed, I cry. I don't run to the pharmacy! If angry, I cuss and let off the steam. No excuses! I haven't heard anyone using "tough love." All this touchy-feely stuff.
Now don't get me wrong. I know coming off any addictive substance causes real agony. I wanted to take my own life. But once you get passed that, move on. You have pills in the house-toss them. Bottles-toss them. Quit thinking about how badly you miss it. I read how some had dreams about using. WTH?? 10 years, 15,000 pills, and using is not in my dream list!
My very first post in this forum was my objection to the use of a 12-step program as an end-all be-all. Read the history of the guy who came up with it. You are your own best friend or worst enemy. Anytime you want to compare life woes, let me know. Quit dwelling on the experiences of the past. Think of how good you feel WITHOUT the stuff! Sorry, but problems are no excuse. Move on and up, or you're gonna stay in that rut forever! For the non-believers who expect God to help, He isn't a genie to answer your every desire. "Oh, you need my help now? Where were you before? I thought you didn't believe in Me?"

So RJ why did you use in the first place and why 15,000 pills? Did you want to do that many and then just one day decide oh, I don't think I will screw up my life anymore and today is the day I will quit using. However you got to this point I doubt that it didn't involve numerous moments of---I will quit tomorrow and you happily stayed in your addiction that day.

I'm glad you are now able to have self-will. Most AA/NA members don't have that including myself. I have a choice BUT if I drank one drink---I am pretty sure I would be off to the races one more time and throw in the F*** It card and have 20 cause at that point in time I screwed up my sobriety. That's the powerlessness of it.

recovery I think
 

If drinking is a problem for you, don't drink. Pretty simple. I know I can't take pain meds ever again. It's a reality. I would be right back. But now I'm clean and no desire to repeat my mistakes.
I used due to 4 back surgeries, failed back syndrome, and a failed fusion, over 10 years! I didn't due this for kicks! After using for so long, the meds quit working and I was taking them just to feel normal. I didn't say I quit with will-power. I had to go to a detox center. It's all in my previous posts. But once I got out, and went through 3 additional days of hell, that was it.
Will-power is often not enough, but there are meds to help those with alcohol problems, drug problems, and other issues.
The point is, once you put it down, it's either down or it's not. How does someone who has been clean 80 days pick up again? Why? The alcohol is not in the system and the brain is starting to function somewhat normal. What it is is the adrenaline rush of doing something you shouldn't, or the false notion that you had it beat so it's no threat-both wrong.
Once one gets over the hump, it should be a done-deal.

RJ I think it is the falsehood of they think they have it whipped and can stay in control when in reality they cannot. So once someone starts again they go back into that cycle. People have a tendancy to forget over time the hell they went through when they were using or the pain of withdrawl. Same theory---Why do women have children again if labor hurt so dang much the first time? Cause they forget over time just how bad it really did hurt. I am hoping that I never use again either now that I have quit and like to keep those thoughts of withdrawl in my head purposefully as a reminder.

Women really do have a hormonal "pull" to have babies. Birth control pills interfere with that. It's not really "instinct" as much as true hormonally linked psychological changes. I read a study years ago that was done on roosters (male chickens, of course) in which they injected them with female hormones. This caused the roosters to try to "mother" the chicks.

Not humans, of course. But too funny.

With drugs, like opiates, it is more than will power involved when you stop. When the brain has been chemically altered to perceive pleasure only through artificial means (until enough time passes where it relearns a new pathway), addicts don't feel pleasure without it, and in fact feel more "dysphoric" (as opposed to "euphoric") and experience a real chemical "pull" to use. Addicts feel worse in their "normal" state than they did before they started using.

We are wired to "need" pleasure. Just like we "need" salt to survive. We find it pleasurable to put substances into our bodies that give us pleasure, to reject things that cause us "displeasure". It's why certain things taste bad, smell bad, feel bad -- it's our body's protective mechanism to achieve equilibrium.

So, why don't we reject opiates in this way? Well, because they are synthesized and designed to give us pleasure in an unnatural way. Kind of like how we are now programmed to eat too much, drink too much, do "whatever" too much, because our human bodies aren't exposed to the natural world in the way they are "designed" to do.

This was not a religious rant.

Recovery I think
 

Based on the hell I went through, it would a hundred years before I forget that! Hate to bring this up, but I was molested as a child. That was 40 something years ago. I never forgot it. Never will. I nearly killed my wife and myself. I am ashamed to say, but I will never forget that. My body was shut down so badly I couldn't get outside, even if I wanted to. Today I walked about 4 miles with a weighted vest! My body has gone to crap. I've lost muscle and strength that I now have to regain. I realize people have psychological addictions as well as physical. But when you get past the physical, you have to convince yourself that the old person is dead! I know this may sound simplistic, but it's true. Maybe the buzz or the attraction to alcohol is different than pills. It's legal, people drink in social circles, at clubs, or in their homes. There is virtually no stigma. Some are even functioning drunks. Pills are illegal unless you have a Rx. You can't sit around someone's house and try a variety pack! So maybe alcohol has a greater appeal, hence a stronger pull to go back to it.
I've had a few drinks in my day. Don't like putting my head in a toilet. Did that with pills too...neither is pleasant.
Don't take anything I say as a put-down. Everyone handles their struggles in their own way. I know it isn't easy. My wife's mom died an alcoholic. She lived with it. She hated it.
I am just sad when I read about relapses. That means you have to start all over again. I don't ever want to go through that experience again. I truly wish you the best.

RJ completely with you on not ever wanting to go through the withdrawl part of this business ever again and I have not easily forgotten it the way I did childbirth but heck that was 15 years ago. In the short time (2 months) I was using drugs I lost quite a bit of muscle mass myself and found it to be very odd. I was running 3 miles a day prior to my use and am doing that again but I have this crazy looking chicken legs now! I found it extremely interesting how the opiates tear up the mind and the body in a short period of time.

recovery I think
 

You can imagine 10 years and 4 surgeries! I forced myself to do things I probably shouldn't have done, but I didn't want the failed surgery to get the best of me. My back is killing me today, but it should be okay tomorrow-without pain pills! It's just a slow process and I am patience impaired! I don't think they tear down the body. It's the inactivity. Who wants to exercise with a buzz? So we get lazy. Naturally, the body breaks down with no exercise. Pills make us feel good. Who needs stinking exercise!! LOL!

Recovery I think - rant of the day
 

I don't like sounding negative, but I feel I'm coming unglued. It has nothing to do with wanting to use again. I have no desire. But coming out of that cloud I can see clearly, the mess I'm in. My life is like my garage-in shambles! Despite my attempts to stay focussed, it alludes me. My back hurts every single day. The tax man is going to rape us. Still can't work. Depression over bills and not enough income is driving me nuts. It just seems like the pressure is mounting. But I guess I said that to say this-none of this is a "trigger" to justify turning back to pills again. If I hear one more cry baby talking about relapsing due to life's difficulties, I'm going to scream! If anyone has reason to relapse or O/D, it's me! Simply put, my life sucks! My wife and I haven't slept in the same bed for a few months now because of my insomnia. I can't wreck her sleep with me getting up and down. So I have to go through EVERYTHING alone. F*&K!
I don't post these things to be ugly to anyone, or antagonistic. I whole-heartedly disagree with the premise of "once an addict, always an addict." I never considered myself to be an addict while using. Physical dependence is not the same as psychological addiction. I'm sure most know this. My heart goes out to those who have to go through the w/d thing over and over. If you can't do it yourself, get help, and I don't mean a 12 step program! See a drug/alcohol addiction specialist.
Sorry if this bummed people out, just not feeling well these last few days and it's starting to boil over...
With greatest respect to all-
Just

Hi JustRJ
 

Hey.

I hear ya.

Even though you got addicted to oxys and have great resolve to stay off of them, if you're like I was/am, you can't elude the fact that oxy's at some point -- usually at the beginning stages before tolerance set in -- they reduced any anxiety or depression that pre-existed their use.

Now that you are off oxys -- again, if you're like I was/am -- you'll get a "rebound" effect from NOT using oxys, where any pre-existing anxiety or depression is actually WORSE than it was before the oxys.

I don't know why that is, but it makes sense chemically. As you know, our seratonin levels and dopamine levels are intimately involved in the chemistry of depression, which is why stuff like Prozac and its newer generation of drugs are used.

It is well known that chronic pain is associated with depression. There's probably some chemistry involved there, too, that I don't know as much about. If you are a Googler, you might want to check it out.

Here is a website for depression chemistry:

The Chemistry of Depression

The other thing that strikes home with me is your insomnia. Another big brain chemistry interrupter. I have it pretty bad. I was put on an extremely mild antidepressant, I think I told you about it, that is mildly sleep inducing. It helps me a lot to FALL asleep, but it doesn't KEEP me asleep. It does, however, stop the morning panic attacks I used to have and no longer do, now that I'm 4 months (almost) off the OX.

Of all the things I hear from you, aside from the obvious pain issues, I think the SLEEP issue is having the most impact on your "dysphoria." I wonder if you have sleep apnea waking you up. I'm guessing you've already had that checked out.

I don't recommend (and can't here, anyway) the use of sleep drugs, because then you'll never have normal sleep again. But, there are other medications like the one I'm using that are mildly effective, and you might want to talk to your doc about something like that.

Your wife is probably also distressed about this and doesn't know what to do, probably you can't even talk about it anymore. That's why I hope you get this medically addressed.

Sleep is such a problem, especially in the "AGING POPULATION" like me. Maybe you. It sucks. If I could just fix the sleep thing, I would also be a far more content person.

You are so driven and determined about other stuff in your life, I hope you can find some ways to figure this one out.

Just my thoughts.

You're a good man, JustRJ.

Rant for the day
 

I was on Norco, but I'm sure they are pretty close. I don't think it has anything to do with rebound depression, just the weight of life. As we talked about before, I feel I've lost my identity. Say what you will, but a man without a purpose is not a man. I can't come to grips with that. I feel I have to find a job to find purpose again. 10 years at home is not doing it for me. There are those who would consider it a blessing, but to me it is a curse. I have to take sleep meds or I won't sleep! My mind doesn't stop "problem solving." And if there seems to be no solution, it makes it worse. I don't do well with antidepressants. The doc wanted me to take Zoloft. I'm sorry but I want my body chemistry to be somewhat normal. Once my Rx runs out for the Ambien, I'm done with them. But the stress is overwhelming. My wife just got done giving me the business about why we have to pay so much in taxes. How the hell do I know! I punch in the numbers. Just too much stress. Still can't get my van operable. Like I said, it never ends...

My fiance and my's attempt.
 

So my fiance and I are trying to kick opiates (heroin). It's not going very well and we are very scared. :c020: This is 1 of the hardest things I have ever tried to do.

Subutex good and bad
 

Subutex is great it is the only thing that has stopped me from using for years.

But with all the benifits im really struggeling with one. When sober in patches and when younger i loved to socalise be around people talk laugh etc.. Now this has all gone i find it more painfull to be around people on subs than not. I used to be very sharp witty and very articulate. Now on subs i struggle to finish sentnces, i carnt find the word or word im looking for, i can not remember new words or jokes or anything. This has completly destroyed my lust for life. Once comftable socially funny etc now i can hardly interact cos i cant find the words that used to just come to me.

This is really destroying a huge part of my life. But at the same time being on subs has allowed me for the first time in years to be responsable be proactive at work and stop using even thinking about heroin.

But now i am a recluse. DOES ANY ONE ELSE RELATE TO THIS SLOWED THINKING OR LACK OF ARTICULATION AND INTEREST IN LIFE ???

IF so please write back

Ow just to say that was my first post i am new to this whole thing. I dont even know if i am in the right forum or thread .... i dont even know what they really mean. If someone thinks i could find others who may relate please could some one let me know what forum or thread to go to.

Manny thanks

Hi guys, and welcome.

You got in on a pretty old thread, so I'd suggest starting one of your own or tagging on to one of the more recent ones.

FT

Hi Rob,

Like I told the other guys, this is a pretty old thread. You are welcome here! There is a subox forum that might have some kindred spirits. Here is fine, too, though.

FT

Day 1... Again
 

Hi. Right now I'm sitting next to my fiancee and I know day 1 is a walk in the park (at least for me it is). It's days 2-7 I'm worried about. I am detoxing from morphine, vicodin and oddly enough soboxin. You might be asking yourself how I could take these drugs all at once. Well, I would take the soboxin and get really high on it, and then when I ran out, I'd switch to morphine and vicodin. I'm 26 years old and I have a precancerous condition which is barrets esophogus. Lately I have been throwing up blood. The results from my ultrasound include a swollen fatty liver, gull stones (they took my gull bladder out). I'd say its time to seriously start recovery. Not only is my physical health poor, but I am hurting the people I love the most.

In the past my withdrawls have lasted 5-7 days. But I can relate when people are saying that they last for weeks. The mind is a strong mechanism. I'm with you guys. Maybe we can all help eachother.

PS. Gabbapentin and chocolate work the most for me.:tyou

Hi findingmeagain8,

Welcome here!

I know about Barrett's, and it doesn't have to turn to cancer. Are you on a special diet? My guess is yes, because you want to reduce the acidity going on.

Fortunately, you have your youth on your side, and there is time to turn all this around and get your health back. It is NOT too late to do that.

I'm so glad you are here. Maybe you can make this recovery the lasting and final one so that you can live a healthy life again.

Both your "remedies" sound pretty good to me. Keep posting and join in on other threads if you want. We are a friendly group here, and our aim is to help each other stay with whatever program we are working to recover. It doesn't matter which one you are on, you will get support for your efforts here.

FT

Day 1 for me again
 

To Finding a meaning,I completely understand exactly what you are saying. I pretty much feel the same as you do. I have health conditions and it is time to quit this **** for good! I hope you are still clean! I quit using lortab 10`s after 5 years on the 23rd of Oct. And was clean for about a week. I am quittng again today. I have to, everyone still thinks I'm clean. I am lieing to them and myself. I also am taking Gabapentin. It helps so much with the withdrawls... too bad it doesn't give u energy I think being tired and not having energy is the worse part for me.:c021: I am 32 and feel like I am 60. I know we will feel much better in a couple of weeks...it's just getting that far. Seems like forever away! :cries3: Please reply and let me know how you are doing.