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Old 06-19-2016, 11:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Are you considered "Clean" if you're on Subs?


This is a huge debate whenever I talk to people and especially in rehab the few times I've been there... I've had counselors tell me it is considered being clean, while others will argue that it's just another opiate. Hmmmm?
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Old 06-19-2016, 11:23 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Hi MxKing

there's a range of views, but this is a safe place to talk about such things

welcome to SR

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Old 06-20-2016, 07:01 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I guess the question is does the person taking it consider themselves clean? Are they taking it as prescribed? Are they doing anything else for their recovery? I have been on both Suboxone and Methadone in the past (years ago) and my view has changed for myself since I came off it. I reset my sobriety date after getting off Opiate Replacement, but that was me. That is in no way saying these drugs cannot be a helpful tool in getting clean. The opposite is also true in many cases.

According to Narcotics Anonymous Bulletin #29 they would say NO (and not saying I agree with everything in there but there it is). The saying To Thine Own Self be true carries a lot of weight here (and not everyone uses NA of course). What about other drugs? How about someone taking a prescribed benzo for anxiety? That would be a slippery slope for an addict like myself, but maybe not for others.

Bulletin 29
https://www.na.org/?ID=bulletins-bull29

I am in no way trying to start an argument. In the end we all have to live with ourselves and try to do what we think is right for ourselves. It is the 21st century and medication has its place of course. I think extra care has to be taken for addicts like me. The important thing is being honest with yourself and your doctor. I never intended to stay on ORT forever and my goal was to be free of everything and let my body truly heal. Again just my opinion which carries the same weight as everyone else's.
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Old 06-24-2016, 01:15 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Subs

Actually going through this right now. One 8mg last me literally around 3/4 weeks. I cut it in 7/8 strips and take a 1/4 of one of those each day. A tiny piece. To me I've been clean for 18 months as of today. I know I've never abused it and I'm actually weening currently to every other day. But I told my sponsor and he's old timer and I know his view is that it doesn't count. So trying to not let it bother me. To me no drugs or alcohol in 18 months is a big deal. And a tiny little piece of sub doesn't mean I'm not clean.
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Old 06-24-2016, 01:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
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for me clean and sober would mean no drugs whatsoever except if and when needed saying that I might have an operation or something but only taken as prescribed and for a short period of time that's just me

I have fooled myself before

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Old 07-02-2016, 11:38 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I think only each person can answer that.
My daily dose is supervised. I could go see the Dr. every week, OR be on *dailys* and since I have no insurance, guess what? Daily pharmacy for me.
I consider myself clean.
But only I know what happens when nobody is looking.
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Old 07-04-2017, 01:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Bump -let's revive this thread

Yes I am late to the party, and I'm in early recovery, but the issue of people on maintenance meds (Esp in NA) is something I keep running into and what I see really bothers me.

I'm 43 days clean from heroin today, and NO WAY could I have done it without NA. The way I detoxed was with a small amount of methadone I had saved from being in MMT. Very expired. I honestly don't know how much actual potency it had kept, but I did a pretty fast detox in about 5 weeks.

So while I have been the NA definition of "clean" I'm still struggling physically, and people notice sometimes. Methadone stays in your system a loooong time and I do not expect to be fully free of the rattle for 6-9 months. I harbor no illusions about this, and some days are better than others.

This is the first thing that royally pisses me off. I mean, you don't know me - do not make assumptions about what I am or am not doing and then judge me!!! At least get to know me! Watch me keep coming back to meetings. Listen to me when I share. Give me a chance before you condemn me because I have worked damn HARD to get where I am, and regardless of whether your intentions come from a good place or not, it feels craptastic to say the least, when this happens. I don't feel like it's anyone's business but mine- yet if I am to be taken seriously in the program, I feel pushed to "explain myself." F**+ those people. If anything pushes me away from the program, it will be this issue. Which scares me, because nothing else has ever worked.

Which brings me to my second major point: I believe that there are a significant number of people on maintenance (or coming off it) currently in the rooms, and I have witnessed firsthand, people being called out in front of others or being made to feel "less than" for it.

NA lip service tells newcomers that every one works the program in their own way, the only thing required for membership is a desire to stop using, and to keep coming back. But when the 'rubber meets the road' in actual practice, people on maintenance discover this is not really true. Despite the fact that some of these people are 100% abstinent from their DOC, and everything else but maintenance. And if they are in a detox, they NEED reinforcement and support.

Would they really rather these people not be in the meeting? Does all their hard work not count? I mean, I watched a person share how they were having horrible mental/physical issues in their recovery and were considering going on maintenance. This poor soul got BLASTED in front of the group by the next "sharer" in a sick, disgusting backhanded way.

So I struggle with this daily. I know I'll end up defending people and being "outspoken" - not toeing the Party Line, whatever... but I think NA needs to re evaluate. Or at least drag this issue into the light. It's a BIG problem. People WILL die as a result of this issue. They won't feel welcome in the rooms, and some will invariably leave. We all know where this leads, so very often.

Personally I'd rather have it out in the open and acknowledged as a "different" but still valid path. It's obvious who is working the program and who is not. Those who are not will usually be out of the rooms soon anyway. Those who are, deserve equal support as the rest of us. Thoughts?
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Old 07-04-2017, 04:05 PM   #8 (permalink)
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If it is supervised by a doc and pharmacist and is not abused- and that person is healing, really trying to stay clean, there is merit in it's use.
I suppose some will argue that this would be like an alcoholic doing a reduced controlled drinking regime- with a doctor with ween off it.
My only experience with powerful drugs- waxs the hospital experience where they pumped me full of massive amounts of opioids and sedatives and the real gamechanger- ketamine.
It was sheer hell. A horrible experience. So comparing a drug to alcohol is not useful. I think it is best for me to forget labels- and look at the person.
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I considered myself clean when I stopped using all drugs. Drug replacement therapy is drug replacement therapy. Through 12 Step recovery, I depend on Spiritual solution , instead of a chemical solution.
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Old 09-09-2017, 07:05 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Welcome needleinthehey

No worries - this is a forum set up to be a safe place for people on suboxone and methadone to find support.

Glad to have you here

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Old 09-09-2017, 07:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Lightbulb

Just a reminder on the rules here in the Suboxone/Methadone Maintenance or Detox forum

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
Please follow the forum rules when posting.

Share your experience and stay away from medical advice and medication and dosage advice.

This is a peer support forum. This forum is not the place to debate or criticize a member's choice of treatment.
for the Forums Team,

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Old 09-17-2017, 05:27 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I am on Suboxone prescribed to me for extreme pain from my doctor every 3 months. I feel that I am clean and I am not on anything else. Thank you gals and guys .
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Old 10-01-2017, 03:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Recently I devoted from 16 mil to 0 after 10 years I understand your situation if you need advice just let me know I just stopped over night it wasent easy but the most amazing things happened as I was withdrawing I had a spiritual awakening and my life has changed forever!!
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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welcome to SR Craig

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Old 10-01-2017, 05:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Thank you d 😊
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:36 AM   #16 (permalink)
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What's up everyone?

I'm new to this furom and hopefully you'll learn more about me as time goes on. For now I'll say my DOC is opiates, but amps, benzos, alcohol and most everything I have experienced.

The book and the preamble clearly says "The only requirement is a desire to stop..."

I'm a big advocate of suboxone maintenance because I've detoxed from opiates very easily using every method you can think of but subs have kept me sober for 3 years, and after a slip up I'm going on about 2 years now. (Sober is after sub taper, but that gradual taper was the best thing for me.)

Do what is working for you. Remember you probably either have no idea how to live in the sober world, or you have forgotten. Detoxing and jumping back in to what you were doing rarely works. Do you, as long as your not abusing your meds than your following the words of big book. Many people are on naloxone as well. Are they not clean because they still need a little help? Nah, we all need a little help.

Stay up and positive all. Peace
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Welcome to SR JahWei

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Old 10-17-2017, 06:04 AM   #18 (permalink)
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As a person on suboxone I feel like there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. I feel like I am clean because I have distanced myself from the people and places i was using but I also know I will feel a whole let better once I get off of suboxone.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:25 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needleinthehey View Post
Yes I am late to the party, and I'm in early recovery, but the issue of people on maintenance meds (Esp in NA) is something I keep running into and what I see really bothers me.

I'm 43 days clean from heroin today, and NO WAY could I have done it without NA. The way I detoxed was with a small amount of methadone I had saved from being in MMT. Very expired. I honestly don't know how much actual potency it had kept, but I did a pretty fast detox in about 5 weeks.

So while I have been the NA definition of "clean" I'm still struggling physically, and people notice sometimes. Methadone stays in your system a loooong time and I do not expect to be fully free of the rattle for 6-9 months. I harbor no illusions about this, and some days are better than others.

This is the first thing that royally pisses me off. I mean, you don't know me - do not make assumptions about what I am or am not doing and then judge me!!! At least get to know me! Watch me keep coming back to meetings. Listen to me when I share. Give me a chance before you condemn me because I have worked damn HARD to get where I am, and regardless of whether your intentions come from a good place or not, it feels craptastic to say the least, when this happens. I don't feel like it's anyone's business but mine- yet if I am to be taken seriously in the program, I feel pushed to "explain myself." F**+ those people. If anything pushes me away from the program, it will be this issue. Which scares me, because nothing else has ever worked.

Which brings me to my second major point: I believe that there are a significant number of people on maintenance (or coming off it) currently in the rooms, and I have witnessed firsthand, people being called out in front of others or being made to feel "less than" for it.

NA lip service tells newcomers that every one works the program in their own way, the only thing required for membership is a desire to stop using, and to keep coming back. But when the 'rubber meets the road' in actual practice, people on maintenance discover this is not really true. Despite the fact that some of these people are 100% abstinent from their DOC, and everything else but maintenance. And if they are in a detox, they NEED reinforcement and support.

Would they really rather these people not be in the meeting? Does all their hard work not count? I mean, I watched a person share how they were having horrible mental/physical issues in their recovery and were considering going on maintenance. This poor soul got BLASTED in front of the group by the next "sharer" in a sick, disgusting backhanded way.

So I struggle with this daily. I know I'll end up defending people and being "outspoken" - not toeing the Party Line, whatever... but I think NA needs to re evaluate. Or at least drag this issue into the light. It's a BIG problem. People WILL die as a result of this issue. They won't feel welcome in the rooms, and some will invariably leave. We all know where this leads, so very often.

Personally I'd rather have it out in the open and acknowledged as a "different" but still valid path. It's obvious who is working the program and who is not. Those who are not will usually be out of the rooms soon anyway. Those who are, deserve equal support as the rest of us. Thoughts?
Hey there,

First off, huge congrats to you on 43 days clean! That is really massive.

Iím now struggling with alcoholism, but have gotten clean off heroin a couple times. Cold turkey, and once with Suboxone maintenance prescribed by a Sub doc. I dealt with the accusations that I wasnít really clean also, actually by my (at the time) primary care physician (I sought out the Sub doc on my own). I personally disagreed with my PCP, and felt I was doing the best I could at the time. I am still proud of what I accomplished. Opiate withdrawal is no joke. I will say though, long term, getting off Subs was harder for me than getting off heroin, although I know everyone is different.

I think youíre doing absolutely great and I wish you all the best.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:39 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I just realized the original post is well over a year old! Oops. Still well wishes all the way around!
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