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Harming ourselves vs Harming others

Old 06-16-2018, 08:31 AM
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Harming ourselves vs Harming others

I'm taking one of my sponsees through steps 8 and 9. She's struggling with it, because most of her self-seeking was internal and not external. She really "harmed" herself with her resentments, versus harming others.

Her harms to others while alcoholic are very apparent, but she doesn't have many. Yet she has a lot of resentments. Because of that, I think her list of harms also includes a lot of things that I'm not sure are actual harms. How can I help guide her with this?

Do we include harms we did when we weren't drinking, but perhaps caused harms because of depression, anxiety, or stress, without meaning to?

Please don't tell me to do what my sponsor did for me, because I was not properly sponsored or guided during Steps 8 and 9.
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Pathwaytofree View Post

Do we include harms we did when we weren't drinking, but perhaps caused harms because of depression, anxiety, or stress, without meaning to?
good question,PW. i think something relevant with the 8th step in the BB:
We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory.
then on the 4th:
We went back through our lives. Nothing counted but thoroughness and honesty.

ya had a pretty bad experience with yer old sponsor so very understandable. however:
what do YOU think on it? how do YOU feel it should be done?
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:48 AM
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I can`t make amends until I change my behaviour

harms to others means harms to others ,regardless of being drunk or sober
a lot of my harms came from my sex inventory,question 4 (whom did we harm?)will get her started,if she needs a jump start.
financial harms(unpaid bills?)
stole something?then go fix it
a few examples but
she can always start with the family first


she can pray and see what God gives her to put on the list
it isn`t up to me as to what goes on my list,it is up to God
my job is to pray and make the list first
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Old 06-16-2018, 01:38 PM
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our self seeking actions can also be not doing things we should have done and doing things we shouldn`t have done

sometimes a lot of the not doing things we should have done is missed in modern day AA
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Old 06-16-2018, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tommyh View Post
I can`t make amends until I change my behaviour

harms to others means harms to others ,regardless of being drunk or sober
a lot of my harms came from my sex inventory,question 4 (whom did we harm?)will get her started,if she needs a jump start.
financial harms(unpaid bills?)
stole something?then go fix it
a few examples but
she can always start with the family first


she can pray and see what God gives her to put on the list
it isn`t up to me as to what goes on my list,it is up to God
my job is to pray and make the list first
I grew up in a family where amends were continuously made but the behavior never changed.

When I got sober the last thing my wife wanted to hear was I had quit. The same with friends and co-workers.

Either I stopped or got my drinking under control or they were gone.

Nobody was interested in apologizes/excuses until I changed my behavior.

About amends: A few years back I ran across a member who went out after 23 years. I hadn't seen him in years because he moved to another State but he was in town on business. Unfortunately, he had been drinking cough syrup at nightly along with non-alcohol beer.

This fellow said his current sponsor told him he slipped because he hadn't made all the necessary amends. (Technically he didn't actually slip because he hadn't drank alcohol but think it wise he restart his sobriety date)

So he racked his brain thinking of things like he still owed money to somebody in Nevada where he worked p/t in his youth.

I was glad to see him speaking on a Sunday night but thought his stressing unfulfilled amends for his behavior was a cop out.

My take was after moving he drifted away from meetings and/or working the program (prayers, reading, visiting sites such as this message board .)

And if this were to happen again he may find myself sucking on a bottle of Robitussin once more.
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Old 06-16-2018, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken33xx View Post
I grew up in a family where amends were continuously made but the behavior never changed.

When I got sober the last thing my wife wanted to hear was I had quit. The same with friends and co-workers.

Either I stopped or got my drinking under control or they were gone.

Nobody was interested in apologizes/excuses until I changed my behavior.

About amends: A few years back I ran across a member who went out after 23 years. I hadn't seen him in years because he moved to another State but he was in town on business. Unfortunately, he had been drinking cough syrup at nightly along with non-alcohol beer.

This fellow said his current sponsor told him he slipped because he hadn't made all the necessary amends. (Technically he didn't actually slip because he hadn't drank alcohol but think it wise he restart his sobriety date)

So he racked his brain thinking of things like he still owed money to somebody in Nevada where he worked p/t in his youth.

I was glad to see him speaking on a Sunday night but thought his stressing unfulfilled amends for his behavior was a cop out.

My take was after moving he drifted away from meetings and/or working the program (prayers, reading, visiting sites such as this message board .)

And if this were to happen again he may find myself sucking on a bottle of Robitussin once more.



Correction....himself.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:43 AM
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I read Father Richard Rohr describing the AA program as a practical model of restorative justice. An amends, AA style, goes much further than a simple sorry. It includes other elements, admission of wrong doing, contrition, an undertaking not to repeat the behaviour, an acceptance of responsibility both fot the behaviour and the remedial action, and restitution.

The result is often reconciliation or restoration of trust, and healing for all parties. That doesn't always mean old relationships revived, but it does involve an end to any acrimony or ill-feeling.

The book also talks about the consequences of continued bad behaviour. We will likely drink if we continue to harm others.

Harms are drunk or sober. A lot of my harms, unreliability for instance, were due to the aftermath of my drinking, too sick to meet responsbilities, not drunken behaviour itself. I was also very selfish when sober and that wasn't exactly a recipe for a happy life. Come to think of it I was often grandiose and arrogant when sober too. I got up a lot of peoples noses.

I think of this summary of the process, in so far as self amends or forgiveness goes. Sure I did harms to others, the backlash being that I harmed myself in the process. Now I make my inventries, I admit my wrongs, I ask God to change me, I go out and make my amends, I keep an eye on things with regular inventory, I ask God to guide me through the day, and I go and help another sufferer when I get the chance. By the time I am that far along with the program, there doesn't seem to be anything left to forgive myself for. Even my worst liabilities have bee turned into assetts that can be used to help others.

"We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it" doesn't sound like we are worried about forgiving ourselves.
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Old 06-17-2018, 03:43 AM
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Your question has prompted me to read step eight in the 12x12 this morning. Thank you for that. The bottom page 79 onward (edition from 1994) is particularly apt for your question, but it is all very good, and may help you with your question.

Some time back, in a treatment centre, one of the counsellors asked why I kept to myself so much, when it was clear that when I allowed others close, all parties had the potential to benefit. "Why" he said "be miserly with your beautiful self?"

That was something I've never forgotten, because it shone a light for the first time on the impact of leading an isolated life, cutting off from others, as a result of active alcoholism and depression. His intention in saying it, and saying it as gently as that, was not to cause any hand wringing, or guilt, because there was a recognition it was not intentional; however it did at the same time benefit from being bought to my attention, because living in a bubble, I only ever considered it impacted on me. It didn't. I wasn't available to others, they may have needed company, just as much as I sorely did, but so deep in my own mire was I, it simply did not occur that I could be useful to anyone. So there was self-pity, fear & inferiority, all right there for me to see, and that my unavailability had consequences not only for me and but other people too.

Important not to push people in this process; all that is possible sometimes is to share my experience, and it may prompt similar in the other person, or it may not. That is all we can do.

Wish you well
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommyh View Post
I can`t make amends until I change my behaviour

harms to others means harms to others ,regardless of being drunk or sober
a lot of my harms came from my sex inventory,question 4 (whom did we harm?)will get her started,if she needs a jump start.
financial harms(unpaid bills?)
stole something?then go fix it
a few examples but
she can always start with the family first


she can pray and see what God gives her to put on the list
it isn`t up to me as to what goes on my list,it is up to God
my job is to pray and make the list first
Sometimes it seems like the sex/relationship harms and financial harms are obvious for them to see. Can you give examples of other types of harms?
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommyh View Post
our self seeking actions can also be not doing things we should have done and doing things we shouldn`t have done
I have never heard this before. This would've been extremely helpful for me on my self-seeking. But then how does that relate to harms and amends?

sometimes a lot of the not doing things we should have done is missed in modern day AA
Once I understand this more clearly, I am going to teach it to my sponsees. Thanks Tommy.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken33xx View Post
I grew up in a family where amends were continuously made but the behavior never changed.
To quote an old timer I knew, then that's not an amends. That's just an apology. Amend means to change.

Hey at least you got apologies.

Nobody was interested in apologizes/excuses until I changed my behavior.
I think we all can say that. And it takes a long time sometimes for the others to see that we have in fact changed.

This fellow said his current sponsor told him he slipped because he hadn't made all the necessary amends. (Technically he didn't actually slip because he hadn't drank alcohol but think it wise he restart his sobriety date)
I've heard that said before. Personally I'm not of that school of thought. We slip because of the thinking that precedes the first drink. We stay spiritually fit so our thinking stays in check.

I'm also of the school of thought that ingesting cough syrup like that is a slip. But that's just me. I respect all other opinions.

So he racked his brain thinking of things like he still owed money to somebody in Nevada where he worked p/t in his youth.

I was glad to see him speaking on a Sunday night but thought his stressing unfulfilled amends for his behavior was a cop out.
I agree.

My take was after moving he drifted away from meetings and/or working the program (prayers, reading, visiting sites such as this message board .)
Meditating and helping others. too.

And if this were to happen again he may find himself sucking on a bottle of Robitussin once more.
Let's hope not.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Gottalife View Post
I read Father Richard Rohr describing the AA program as a practical model of restorative justice. An amends, AA style, goes much further than a simple sorry. It includes other elements, admission of wrong doing, contrition, an undertaking not to repeat the behaviour, an acceptance of responsibility both fot the behaviour and the remedial action, and restitution.
I agree.

But I'm trying to understand the difference between what is a true harm, and what is something more minor and not needing an amends. And what about harms we do to ourselves.

The result is often reconciliation or restoration of trust, and healing for all parties. That doesn't always mean old relationships revived, but it does involve an end to any acrimony or ill-feeling.
Both excellent points to bring up. Amends heal both parties.

The book also talks about the consequences of continued bad behaviour. We will likely drink if we continue to harm others.
Very true. Is this "Breathing Under Water"?
That's why in our daily step 10/11 we make amends "immediately".

Harms are drunk or sober. A lot of my harms, unreliability for instance, were due to the aftermath of my drinking, too sick to meet responsbilities, not drunken behaviour itself. I was also very selfish when sober and that wasn't exactly a recipe for a happy life. Come to think of it I was often grandiose and arrogant when sober too. I got up a lot of peoples noses.
What about if you were "unreliable" because you were suffering from anxiety/depression that wiped you out of energy? But you weren't drinking or hung over? Does that owe an amends?

That's cool you had self awareness of being grandiose and arrogant when sober. How did you make amends for that, or was it more a living amends?

I think of this summary of the process, in so far as self amends or forgiveness goes. Sure I did harms to others, the backlash being that I harmed myself in the process.
I understand your point, but that wasn't what I meant about harming yourself.

I have a sponsee who harmed herself by replaying old resentments, by letting family members manipulate and abuse her, by taking to heart what her ex husband says about her, by sabotaging her career, by blaming herself for stuff she shouldn't blame herself for, by allowing her mind to get lost in self-pity, self-hate, etc. I don't know how to help her with that.

Now I make my inventries, I admit my wrongs, I ask God to change me, I go out and make my amends, I keep an eye on things with regular inventory, I ask God to guide me through the day, and I go and help another sufferer when I get the chance.
This is great!

By the time I am that far along with the program, there doesn't seem to be anything left to forgive myself for. Even my worst liabilities have bee turned into assetts that can be used to help others.
I love that last part.

"We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it" doesn't sound like we are worried about forgiving ourselves.
Another excellent point. I also teach my sponsees that when we forgive others, it becomes easier to forgive ourselves. It's like a circle.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Pipefish View Post
Your question has prompted me to read step eight in the 12x12 this morning. Thank you for that. The bottom page 79 onward (edition from 1994) is particularly apt for your question, but it is all very good, and may help you with your question.
That's a good idea. I also like to refer to the 12x12 for a more in depth understanding of the steps.

Some time back, in a treatment centre, one of the counsellors asked why I kept to myself so much, when it was clear that when I allowed others close, all parties had the potential to benefit. "Why" he said "be miserly with your beautiful self?"

That was something I've never forgotten, because it shone a light for the first time on the impact of leading an isolated life, cutting off from others, as a result of active alcoholism and depression. His intention in saying it, and saying it as gently as that, was not to cause any hand wringing, or guilt, because there was a recognition it was not intentional; however it did at the same time benefit from being bought to my attention, because living in a bubble, I only ever considered it impacted on me. It didn't. I wasn't available to others, they may have needed company, just as much as I sorely did, but so deep in my own mire was I, it simply did not occur that I could be useful to anyone. So there was self-pity, fear & inferiority, all right there for me to see, and that my unavailability had consequences not only for me and but other people too.
This is so interesting. I hadn't thought of this. I also experience this myself. I hadn't thought of its impact to others. Did you include this on an amends list, though? Were you able to change? This is fascinating. Sometimes I still believe the lies that people don't want to be around me, I'm not good with dealing with other people, etc.

Important not to push people in this process; all that is possible sometimes is to share my experience, and it may prompt similar in the other person, or it may not. That is all we can do.
Yes I agree, but I didn't have a good experience with my Step 8/9 because I wasn't guided through it properly at all. It's helpful to read everyone's experiences and insights here.

Wish you well
Thank you! I wish you well too.
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:18 PM
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"I have a sponsee who harmed herself by replaying old resentments, by letting family members manipulate and abuse her, by taking to heart what her ex husband says about her, by sabotaging her career, by blaming herself for stuff she shouldn't blame herself for, by allowing her mind to get lost in self-pity, self-hate, etc. I don't know how to help her with that. "

PTF,
this, i think, falls into the category of needing outside help.
i understand steps 8/9 to be about others we have harmed, and in making amends yes, we benefit and "healing" can happen for us too, of course.
it is inherent in cleaning up the wreckage.

but i did not include myself on that list of people to make amends to. though in my meeting and group that is very common, personally i find it self- centered.

and unless you are a trained helper, i don't see how you could know how to help someone with all that you describe there,other than listening well, being empathetic, maybe being an example of how to handle things differently and applying " the principles"...... but i don't expect myself to be able to help with those kinds of issues on a deeper level.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:13 PM
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Amends, apologies, restitution etc. mean little if the behavior doesn’t change. What the AA program hopefully brings about is **clarity and a change in ones actions. We do the best we can yet often fall short but then who doesn't.


Originally Posted by fini View Post
.... unless you are a trained helper, i don't see how you could know how to help someone with all that you describe there,other than listening well, being empathetic, maybe being an example of how to handle things differently and applying " the principles"...... but i don't expect myself to be able to help with those kinds of issues on a deeper level.

And is mentioned above those with deep emotional scars may be in need of a professional. Sometimes in AA the best thing to say is, "I don`t know.... you might want to speak with a..."



** By many accounts Bill W continue to cat around during sobriety without Lois leaving. Maybe that`s why he continued. He realized Lois wouldn`t walk. In my case I knew if my wife found out she would leave. So I cleaned up my act by making an ongoing living amends.

Which over the years turned out to be one of the wisest "amends* I`ve made in sobriety.
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Old 06-18-2018, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
"I have a sponsee who harmed herself by replaying old resentments, by letting family members manipulate and abuse her, by taking to heart what her ex husband says about her, by sabotaging her career, by blaming herself for stuff she shouldn't blame herself for, by allowing her mind to get lost in self-pity, self-hate, etc. I don't know how to help her with that. "
this, i think, falls into the category of needing outside help.
i understand steps 8/9 to be about others we have harmed, and in making amends yes, we benefit and "healing" can happen for us too, of course.
it is inherent in cleaning up the wreckage.
Thank you so much, Fini. She seems to be focusing on things that weren't really harms, too, and I'm not sure how to have her proceed if she really thinks they are.

but i did not include myself on that list of people to make amends to. though in my meeting and group that is very common, personally i find it self- centered.
This is where I think it gets confusing with alcoholics versus alcoholics with depression. I get the feeling that alcoholics act out, whereas alcoholics with depression act in.

Amends to self, in that case, would be to stop beating herself up, going down the rabbit hole of depression, negative thoughts, etc., no?

and unless you are a trained helper, i don't see how you could know how to help someone with all that you describe there,other than listening well, being empathetic, maybe being an example of how to handle things differently and applying " the principles"...... but i don't expect myself to be able to help with those kinds of issues on a deeper level.
It's important to me to always have a healthy line between what a sponsor's job is, and what isn't. I always tell my sponsees that. I have no trouble saying "I think this is something you should discuss with a therapist" or "I am not a mental health professional." I will not make the same horrible mistake my own former sponsor and others in my former home group made with me. It was extremely harmful.

There's a woman who I didn't sponsor, because I knew I honestly couldn't handle her issues. But I remained as part of her network and often checked in with her. I was very concerned with her. The other people in my home group refused to work with her and were rather harsh about it, because they thought she was in "drama". They blew her off by sternly saying "I don't have time", etc.

I clearly saw that this wasn't a woman in drama, but a woman with mental health issues in trauma who needed help from professionals. The person who did agree to work with her, barely instructed her and gave her maybe 2 minutes of time a week. When this freaked her out, I gently tried to steer her back to her IOP and therapist. I seriously felt like step work was the wrong thing for her right now, but I didn't say that. In fact I've never thought that about anyone, until I met her.

There's way too much emphasis in AA as treating everyone as being "selfish, self-centered, self-seeking", etc. when in actuality a lot of people just have mental health issues on top of their alcoholism.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:55 AM
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it is good to remember that we are not responsible for how others take these steps. it is not up to me to decide where someone else has harmed others or themselves, though i may have strong opinions about it, 3which i also don't need to always share.
in my own instance, for example, i made some financial amend to my employer because i had used a few days sick time when i simply hadn't wanted to go in, and my sponsor person really felt there was no need to (we still disagree about that to this day)
and then there are other examples of me having to ultimately decide and know for myself who i had harmed.

'guiding' is such an interesting, rich position to be in....but also includes agency for the other.
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Old 06-19-2018, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
it is good to remember that we are not responsible for how others take these steps. it is not up to me to decide where someone else has harmed others or themselves, though i may have strong opinions about it, 3which i also don't need to always share.
True.... but it's still important to be able to explain Step 8 well, so that the person can figure out where they harmed someone or themselves.

in my own instance, for example, i made some financial amend to my employer because i had used a few days sick time when i simply hadn't wanted to go in, and my sponsor person really felt there was no need to (we still disagree about that to this day)
I had a sort of similar experience, and my sponsor also said there was no amends. It was my depression/anxiety that caused me to not only be somewhat ineffective at work, but to often come in late to work because I couldn't get out of bed. I wasn't drinking at the time, except at an occasional weekend social event, and even then I only drank in excess a handful of times over a few years time. I wasn't alcoholic yet.

But I still felt like I needed to make some sort of amends. I ended up trying to contact my boss's boss, but was unsuccessful because she's retired now and so I guess she doesn't care. I have no idea to this day if she thought my behavior was on purpose, if she thought I was crazy, or if she realized I was suffering from depression and anxiety.

My amends to the universe I guess is to try to treat my depression anxiety and alcoholism, so that it stops effecting others.

and then there are other examples of me having to ultimately decide and know for myself who i had harmed.
True. Only we can really know the answer ourselves.

'guiding' is such an interesting, rich position to be in....but also includes agency for the other.
Again that is true. But where it gets difficult is when you have a sponsor that says if you don't agree on her opinion regarding an amends, then you are being manipulative, controlling, taking your will back, doing recovery your way, etc., etc. That's why I like to speak with my therapist about amends issues.

As always, your input, Fini, is appreciated.
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Pathwaytofree View Post
I agree.

But I'm trying to understand the difference between what is a true harm, and what is something more minor and not needing an amends. And what about harms we do to ourselves.


Both excellent points to bring up. Amends heal both parties.


Very true. Is this "Breathing Under Water"?
That's why in our daily step 10/11 we make amends "immediately".

No, it is from the big book.
What about if you were "unreliable" because you were suffering from anxiety/depression that wiped you out of energy? But you weren't drinking or hung over? Does that owe an amends?

For me fear and self pity were results of drinking. If I suffered depression that wasn't a result of my drinking, then I have a diagnosed health problem or illness. I would owe no amends for following a doctor's orders.

That's cool you had self awareness of being grandiose and arrogant when sober. How did you make amends for that, or was it more a living amends? The awareness came from step four. The very least I could do was explain myself and ask forgiveness. Having a big head doesn't seem to be all that harmful to others though. They just left me out of things if they didn't like my attitude.


I understand your point, but that wasn't what I meant about harming yourself.

I have a sponsee who harmed herself by replaying old resentments, by letting family members manipulate and abuse her, by taking to heart what her ex husband says about her, by sabotaging her career, by blaming herself for stuff she shouldn't blame herself for, by allowing her mind to get lost in self-pity, self-hate, etc. I don't know how to help her with that.

Look for her part in step four. She sounds like she is into victimhood, which is a sure fire way to avoid recovery. Being a sufferer of abuse, it sounds like she needs to make use of a good therapist. That may well be her part, carrying all that stuff, never telling anyone, never getting help, there is a lot of dishonesty there. She can play the victim card anytime you ask her to do something uncomfortable --you don't understand, I'm different. She needs professional help to get past that.


This is great!


I love that last part.


Another excellent point. I also teach my sponsees that when we forgive others, it becomes easier to forgive ourselves. It's like a circle.
Responses in green if it works
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:53 AM
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PTF,
maybe i'm misunderstanding.....are you saying you divide things up into harm done while drinking /resulting from drinking and harm done resulting from a mental health issue such as depression or anxiety?

i see the amends-making as taking responsibility for and rectifying harms i did, regardless of why. i don't see how i could be "cleaning my side of the street" if i say "yeah, but i did that because of a, b, c and d, not because of drinking, so i don't need to clean that up."
if i did that, my side of the street would never be clean.

what am i missing or misunderstanding?

all this talk of street-cleaning....every time i read it or write it, i have this image in my head of everyone in the little german village i grew up in taking their broom every saturday around noon and literally sweeping their sidewalk and part of the road. yep. every saturday. clean and tidy. like clockwork.
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