What Exactly Are These Defects Of Character?
Life Goes On
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
What Exactly Are These Defects Of Character?
I've seen lists like "self-centeredness, dishonesty, pride, fear..."
And heard people mention other attributes or situations, then say something to the effect of "but that's my defect of character and I need to pray to have it removed."
Frankly, many of the shares sound to me like people being human. If someone avoided their neighbor because they didn't want to get into a long-winded discussion after a long day at work, is that really due to a character defect?
And in the list above, if that list is accurate, what follows the "...?"
I'm not being flip, I'm seriously trying to puzzle this out. I thought that the central truth was our common defect was self-centeredness, but the more I listen and read other people, the more confused I get because I can't seem to find a clear definition. It's like everyone understands what this term means without saying what it is. (And apparently it's not an "it" because the word is "these.")
Thanks for your help.
O
And heard people mention other attributes or situations, then say something to the effect of "but that's my defect of character and I need to pray to have it removed."
Frankly, many of the shares sound to me like people being human. If someone avoided their neighbor because they didn't want to get into a long-winded discussion after a long day at work, is that really due to a character defect?
And in the list above, if that list is accurate, what follows the "...?"
I'm not being flip, I'm seriously trying to puzzle this out. I thought that the central truth was our common defect was self-centeredness, but the more I listen and read other people, the more confused I get because I can't seem to find a clear definition. It's like everyone understands what this term means without saying what it is. (And apparently it's not an "it" because the word is "these.")
Thanks for your help.
O
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,902
good post, I use the ones mentioned in the big book. People in meetings around here get off on all sorts of stuff, really confusing and complicating things especially newcomers
but the book is clear and it never changes
example from chapter 5-Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened?
I focus on those (how self manifests in my life)
later on in the big book I find-Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and fear.
those things ran my life, my basic life decisions was influenced or based on self and those defects of character
earlier in the book,chapter 2
Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them.
those defects are the ideas,emotions and attitude I need to cast aside to find peaceful sobriety and sanity
but the book is clear and it never changes
example from chapter 5-Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened?
I focus on those (how self manifests in my life)
later on in the big book I find-Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and fear.
those things ran my life, my basic life decisions was influenced or based on self and those defects of character
earlier in the book,chapter 2
Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them.
those defects are the ideas,emotions and attitude I need to cast aside to find peaceful sobriety and sanity
Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
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This part of the steps is indeed weird. I know many many non-alcoholics with serious character defects. There are numerous teetotalers with defects. One example from history is Hitler. There are modern examples too. I do not think character defects are relevant in relation to alcoholism.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
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Great post and contemplation O.
I agree w what Tommy said and the examples are great. My thoughts:
Those primary character defects are common to mankind, and indeed alcoholics. For us, however, they are central to the "why" of our action of drinking. I don't believe to the disease itself, but indeed to the spiritual malady that this alcoholic had. That puts my alcoholism into a "dual perspective" in a sense.
Part of my daily routine is the St Francis prayer and those step 11 questions. I also connect the "why am I disturbed" question to am I displaying these character defects in particular? Simplifying it to those few is often a way to just get to the basics and review my day. See pp 84-88 and 417-418 for the basis of how I view and use all of this.
To me, then we have our individual yet common frailties, character defects, problems. For example - a guy at a meeting last week cited "pretentiousness" as a huge character defect for him and had examples. Totally legit as he described a *central prob for him*...I didn't gibe w it because I don't see that particular manifestation of selfishness for me. Some of this is how words and the application of the basic concept of being flawed registers w us.
Another common example and one I def have is "control issues." This could manifest in how I want things to work out - which also ties to selfishness.
Ultimately, I believe perhaps the critical diff between us and non alcoholics is that these defects, as we are calling them in AA, lead us to drink. Alcohol is our solution - non-alcoholics, equally flawed, find other solutions. We are all often maladaptive, til we learn better ways to deal.
Hope that helps. It's pretty early in my day so if I am not my usual eloquent self, please forgive
I agree w what Tommy said and the examples are great. My thoughts:
Those primary character defects are common to mankind, and indeed alcoholics. For us, however, they are central to the "why" of our action of drinking. I don't believe to the disease itself, but indeed to the spiritual malady that this alcoholic had. That puts my alcoholism into a "dual perspective" in a sense.
Part of my daily routine is the St Francis prayer and those step 11 questions. I also connect the "why am I disturbed" question to am I displaying these character defects in particular? Simplifying it to those few is often a way to just get to the basics and review my day. See pp 84-88 and 417-418 for the basis of how I view and use all of this.
To me, then we have our individual yet common frailties, character defects, problems. For example - a guy at a meeting last week cited "pretentiousness" as a huge character defect for him and had examples. Totally legit as he described a *central prob for him*...I didn't gibe w it because I don't see that particular manifestation of selfishness for me. Some of this is how words and the application of the basic concept of being flawed registers w us.
Another common example and one I def have is "control issues." This could manifest in how I want things to work out - which also ties to selfishness.
Ultimately, I believe perhaps the critical diff between us and non alcoholics is that these defects, as we are calling them in AA, lead us to drink. Alcohol is our solution - non-alcoholics, equally flawed, find other solutions. We are all often maladaptive, til we learn better ways to deal.
Hope that helps. It's pretty early in my day so if I am not my usual eloquent self, please forgive
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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Originally Posted by Callas 
I do not think character defects are relevant in relation to alcoholism.
FWIW - YMMV
I think Character Defects are relevant in relation to a lot more than just alcoholism.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by AAPJ
Great Posts - Question on dishonesty. Half serious but points out to me at least the challenges of knowing the right answer.
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
What's the right answer?
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
What's the right answer?
Character defects are human emotions. They aren't going away until the day we die. You don't like your mother in law? Fine. You don't like her.
The key to recognize your temper is rising and not to get nasty when the mother in law pushes your bottoms.
This can be done in many ways including prayer or simply trial/error.
I've learned by trial and error not to discuss politics with family, at work or even after a AA meeting.
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
Common sense tells me to filter my answer diplomatically.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
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^^^That was actually addressed on the Today Show yesterday in a segment on white lies. One point most agreed on was that it depends on how long you've been married. I don't ask my husband if something makes me look fat. I ask "what do you think?" or such - I know the flaws I like least like my stomach, so it's usually about choice one, two (or three or four in situations where everything is tossed on the bed)
And indeed, I believe that admitting we 1) HAVE character defects (ie my MIL doesn't think she does so you can stop here for her) and 2) CAN and WANT to do something to be better. Relationships are the biggest thing that benefit, IMO and that means every kind of relationship we have.
And indeed, I believe that admitting we 1) HAVE character defects (ie my MIL doesn't think she does so you can stop here for her) and 2) CAN and WANT to do something to be better. Relationships are the biggest thing that benefit, IMO and that means every kind of relationship we have.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,902
I think my defects ran to the extreme where non alcoholics don`t
my wife for example,she can get mad quickly,like I used too
but she gets over it quickly where I would not.It just stayed in my head and festered and sometimes turned into hate
my wife for example,she can get mad quickly,like I used too
but she gets over it quickly where I would not.It just stayed in my head and festered and sometimes turned into hate
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Join Date: May 2012
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yes, of course everybody has character defects or shortcomings( there is an explanatory note from Bill Wilson saying he uses those terms interchangeably).
the idea mentioned somewhere (can't remember if BB or 12x12) that these shortcomings are basic instincts gone awry was helpful to me.
an example of that might be the basic instinct to protect myself "gone awry" into wanting / needing to control everything.
the idea mentioned somewhere (can't remember if BB or 12x12) that these shortcomings are basic instincts gone awry was helpful to me.
an example of that might be the basic instinct to protect myself "gone awry" into wanting / needing to control everything.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
I can understand why you might be confused about this Obladi. People interpret "defects of character" in many different ways.
Personally I like the way it's talked about in the book "Spirituality of imperfection" by Ernest Kurtz. Better than the Big Book in many respects.
Personally I like the way it's talked about in the book "Spirituality of imperfection" by Ernest Kurtz. Better than the Big Book in many respects.
Life Goes On
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
Thanks for the recommendation, awuh - I've added this book to my growing pile of "must reads."
And thanks, everyone else, for your input. Pending further investigation, I guess where this leaves me so far is in agreement with those of you that understand "these defects of character" are those base instincts that interfere with our ability to be decent human beings.
I think of "character" as something baked in, something I was born with, so it makes sense I would need to pray to have defects of that sort removed. Seems likely they never will actually go away, right? But if they will, prayer is the only way it's gonna happen! And one would/I would certainly hope that wishing it to be so would at least help me to make some progress in the area of compensating for those fundamental flaws.
It's interesting that Bill would use the word "shortcoming" interchangeably. To me, a shortcoming, seems more like something I could come up with or develop if only I worked harder at it.
Hmm.
Let's say it's true that everyone is born with essentially the same basic character flaws. I think they are. Then that can't possibly be the reason that I drink, can it? Which isn't to say it's not a good idea to pray to have these defects removed or better yet, to actively work on mitigating them ourselves - of course it is. Only good things could come of that, right?
Hmmm
"Central to the why of our action of drinking."
I have to think on this some more, but I think this is where I'm going, August.
And thanks, everyone else, for your input. Pending further investigation, I guess where this leaves me so far is in agreement with those of you that understand "these defects of character" are those base instincts that interfere with our ability to be decent human beings.
I think of "character" as something baked in, something I was born with, so it makes sense I would need to pray to have defects of that sort removed. Seems likely they never will actually go away, right? But if they will, prayer is the only way it's gonna happen! And one would/I would certainly hope that wishing it to be so would at least help me to make some progress in the area of compensating for those fundamental flaws.
It's interesting that Bill would use the word "shortcoming" interchangeably. To me, a shortcoming, seems more like something I could come up with or develop if only I worked harder at it.
Hmm.
Let's say it's true that everyone is born with essentially the same basic character flaws. I think they are. Then that can't possibly be the reason that I drink, can it? Which isn't to say it's not a good idea to pray to have these defects removed or better yet, to actively work on mitigating them ourselves - of course it is. Only good things could come of that, right?
Hmmm
"Central to the why of our action of drinking."
I have to think on this some more, but I think this is where I'm going, August.
Grateful
Join Date: May 2013
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Originally Posted by Obladi
Let's say it's true that everyone is born with essentially the same basic character flaws. I think they are. Then that can't possibly be the reason that I drink, can it?
So it's kind of like the "chicken or the egg" question...did my character flaws cause my drinking or did my drinking cause my character flaws?
My answer is Yes!
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
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Two things:
Progress not perfection applies here, IMO. We aren't going to behave w/o our shortcomings all the time! But being slower to anger, quicker to apologize, for example - and owning what we did in the tussle! - is an example of improving, or at least ameliorating, our character probs.
I believe character is something developed. I believe people are born "solid" for the most part, yet genetic predispositions to anything from a mental illness in the extreme or alcoholism or .... exist. So, my character and having character were impacted and encouraged (or defects, too) by events and people in my life. It's up to me how I apply it, which for me means a responsibility to continuously seek to be better.
Progress not perfection applies here, IMO. We aren't going to behave w/o our shortcomings all the time! But being slower to anger, quicker to apologize, for example - and owning what we did in the tussle! - is an example of improving, or at least ameliorating, our character probs.
I believe character is something developed. I believe people are born "solid" for the most part, yet genetic predispositions to anything from a mental illness in the extreme or alcoholism or .... exist. So, my character and having character were impacted and encouraged (or defects, too) by events and people in my life. It's up to me how I apply it, which for me means a responsibility to continuously seek to be better.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,902
I sometimes look at my defects as personality flaws
I was extremely angry and fearful
more than the average person I thing and so finding comfort and peace in my mind was out of the question
so something had to change
I was extremely angry and fearful
more than the average person I thing and so finding comfort and peace in my mind was out of the question
so something had to change
Life Goes On
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Posts: 6,069
I may repeat back exactly what one or more of you said to me. If so, don't take it as me "not listening." It's just my process. Think, read, write, listen, think some more, and so on. Until something falls out. Like a fabulous candy from one of Willie Wonka's enormously complex confectionary machines. (Well, fabulous to me - could be an acquired taste for others.)
Here's what I believe the BB has to say on the subject:
True that, I say.
(Obladi alert! Typical ramblings and sidebars ahead - skip to the last paragraph if you have a short attention span or low tolerance for mental meandering.)
However, I also say it's neither the chicken nor the egg.
I don't think that a person is an alcoholic because of these defects of character.
And I don't think that these defects of character are because a person is an alcoholic.
I think that people are born with needs and instincts. You know, like Maslow talked about. We need air, food, procreation. We naturally desire and are more healthy with connection to other people, the esteem of people we hold in high regard, etc. We also have a natural instinct to survive and avoid pain.
Because we're human, we learn from conditioning that less pain is good and more pleasure is also good. This fosters traits that are self-centered, self-indulgent, self-preservation focused. We could argue this is a "bad" thing, but is it? Probably not always, right? It's the "run riot" parts that are our character defects or shortcomings.
So I can pray to have God remove my self-centeredness, but I know full well that's likely never going to happen. And I'm not even sure S/He wants that to happen. Doesn't S/He want me to be happy with myself? To enjoy my chocolate, to delight in a particular turn of phrase I just penned, to continue to get health? Of course S/He does!
I believe that the "run riot" part is a coping mechanism to avoid pain or fear or to try to increase pleasure. One form this "running riot" can take is drinking alcohol to the point of becoming powerless over the substance. Other forms are certain mental disorders (that's my other mechanism), shopping, eating, sex, being an overall crap person, etc, etc. These are our defects of character. No, that's not quite right, either. Shoot. Depression, anxiety, dissociation - those things aren't character defects - they are mental disorders (or diseases, if you prefer). Addiction of any sort is also not a character defect - it's a disorder or a disease or an allergy or a maladapted brain, whichever way you want to define it.
Ok, I think I have it now. Thanks for bearing with me while I thought this through "out loud."
I think what's meant by the 6th step is "Was entirely ready to have God remove my (perfectly natural human) inclination to do self-indulgently crappy things that I knew full well were wrong."
Thanks again.
I think I'm at peace with this step for now.
Until the book awuh recommended arrives.
(Well, fabulous to me - could be an acquired taste for others.)Here's what I believe the BB has to say on the subject:
Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, delusion, self-seeking, self-pity... the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. God makes that possible.
(Obladi alert! Typical ramblings and sidebars ahead - skip to the last paragraph if you have a short attention span or low tolerance for mental meandering.)
However, I also say it's neither the chicken nor the egg.
I don't think that a person is an alcoholic because of these defects of character.
And I don't think that these defects of character are because a person is an alcoholic.
I think that people are born with needs and instincts. You know, like Maslow talked about. We need air, food, procreation. We naturally desire and are more healthy with connection to other people, the esteem of people we hold in high regard, etc. We also have a natural instinct to survive and avoid pain.
Because we're human, we learn from conditioning that less pain is good and more pleasure is also good. This fosters traits that are self-centered, self-indulgent, self-preservation focused. We could argue this is a "bad" thing, but is it? Probably not always, right? It's the "run riot" parts that are our character defects or shortcomings.
So I can pray to have God remove my self-centeredness, but I know full well that's likely never going to happen. And I'm not even sure S/He wants that to happen. Doesn't S/He want me to be happy with myself? To enjoy my chocolate, to delight in a particular turn of phrase I just penned, to continue to get health? Of course S/He does!
I believe that the "run riot" part is a coping mechanism to avoid pain or fear or to try to increase pleasure. One form this "running riot" can take is drinking alcohol to the point of becoming powerless over the substance. Other forms are certain mental disorders (that's my other mechanism), shopping, eating, sex, being an overall crap person, etc, etc. These are our defects of character. No, that's not quite right, either. Shoot. Depression, anxiety, dissociation - those things aren't character defects - they are mental disorders (or diseases, if you prefer). Addiction of any sort is also not a character defect - it's a disorder or a disease or an allergy or a maladapted brain, whichever way you want to define it.
Ok, I think I have it now. Thanks for bearing with me while I thought this through "out loud."
I think what's meant by the 6th step is "Was entirely ready to have God remove my (perfectly natural human) inclination to do self-indulgently crappy things that I knew full well were wrong."
Thanks again.
I think I'm at peace with this step for now.
Until the book awuh recommended arrives.
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