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Wholesome 07-16-2019 12:59 PM

I love you

I'm sorry

Please forgive me

Thank you

I've been going through it these last few months. Really doing a lot of self reflection and feeling a lot of emotion, a lot of anxiety and pain. I have a lot to be forgiven for, and a lot of forgiving to do. These few simple words have helped me. I hope they help you too.

awuh1 09-29-2019 02:50 PM

Hope all's well Wholesome. Pele says aloha.

AlericB 11-01-2019 03:14 AM

These simple words would also help the people you said them too I'm sure.

I know this is an old post but I hope things have gotten better Wholesome/zenchaser

Wholesome 11-22-2019 01:19 AM

I used to dismiss spirituality, but now I think that our material lives are a spiritual test, and that it really is about souls. I think that I literally had demons and this year I faced them instead of trying to run away from them.

I still say that little prayer all the time. It works and it really does help.

The golden rule is deeper than do unto others as you would have done unto you - it's what you do to another, you do to yourself.

The hardest part of forgiveness is that I had to let the love back in because to acknowledge the pain is to acknowledge all the love that was there that allowed that pain to run so deep. The more you love someone, the more that they can hurt you and I put up all these defenses to protect myself from the pain, I had to let them down. It's ongoing, but it's getting better, the more I let it out, the better I feel. I know now that I'm not alone, God is with me and God will never lie to me, or betray me, or abandon me.

AlericB 11-22-2019 03:37 AM

I think you're absolutely right in saying that we can't fully acknowledge any particular part of ourselves - certain feelings for example - without acknowledging our full selves, so, as you say, you can't really know how much pain someone caused you without also knowing how much you loved them because the pain is in part dependant on the love. I think having a faith/a trusting relationship with God gives us the strength to look at ourselves honestly. I'm really glad for you.

biminiblue 11-22-2019 04:58 AM

I love this. I do this frequently. I first read about it as "mirror work." Looking at my own eyes in the mirror while saying the words out loud.

I saw it in an ancient-wisdom book I found at a thrift store in early sobriety when I was super fragile. The book is, "The Toltec Way." It amazes me that the ancient cultures all had this as part of their collective spoken wisdom - even those as far apart as the Hawaiian islands and South America.

Wholesome 11-22-2019 07:18 AM

I found this other prayer in the 12 Steps and Traditions AA book this summer when I was having my breakdown and it really helped at the time too. I went to a couple of meetings. I was in so much pain and willing to try anything for some relief. I thought, I'm a sober alcoholic who's having a real spiritual awakening, what better place to go? Letting myself feel my pain and shame was one of the hardest things I've done. Especially the shame. I had so much of it, so many things have happened that were so ugly, things I've had done to me and things I've done to myself. I think the devil laughs at us when we shame ourselves, he tempts us and then laughs when we go for it, just because he can. True sadism.

It was also the best work I've done. I couldn't let it go until I was willing to look at it, examine it, and separate what belongs to me from what doesn't. A lot of it didn't belong to me, but I carried it and punished myself for it because I was too scared to really unpack it and go through it.

It's ongoing though. I never thought a spiritual awakening would be so painful, it's beautiful too, but living in truth isn't always easy.

鏑ord, make me a channel of thy peace葉hat where
there is hatred, I may bring love葉hat where there is
wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness葉hat where
there is discord, I may bring harmony葉hat where there is
error, I may bring truth葉hat where there is doubt, I may
bring faith葉hat where there is despair, I may bring hope
葉hat where there are shadows, I may bring light葉hat
where there is sadness, I may bring joy. Lord, grant that I
may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted葉o understand,
than to be understood葉o love, than to be loved.
For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. It is by forgiving
that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal
Life. Amen.

AlericB 11-22-2019 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Wholesome (Post 7315764)
It was also the best work I've done. I couldn't let it go until I was willing to look at it, examine it, and separate what belongs to me from what doesn't. A lot of it didn't belong to me, but I carried it and punished myself for it because I was too scared to really unpack it and go through it.

This reminded me of something a Christian counsellor told me once. She was seeing an adult woman who had been sexually abused as a child by her uncle I think it was. She never told anyone, not even her mum, and it had happened some twenty years ago but she had carried a secret sense of shame and guilt for what had happened ever since. The counsellor prayed with her and asked God to remove her shame and place it where it properly belonged. Just a couple of days after this the uncle, who she had never seen as an adult, wrote to her saying that he had plagued by a huge sense of remorse and that he wanted to admit (for the first time) to what he had done and to apologise for it. Make of that as you will! It seems to me though to prove your point that we should not carry shame and guilt that come about from other people's actions.

Wholesome 11-22-2019 09:27 AM

鉄omeone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this too, was a gift.

― Mary Oliver

That's a heavy quote and really sums up what it's like to have the person who's supposed to be protecting you being the one who's hurting you the worst. It's the ultimate inversion. The worst part of abuse is the need to pretend it's ok when it's not. The cover up and denial of the truth. Ugh. Betrayal is another difficult emotion and a really sick thing to do to someone because it requires gaining their trust. It shames a person to be betrayed though and the shame creates the secret. The truth really will set us free.

AlericB 11-22-2019 10:01 AM

You seem to be very self-aware which no doubt has set you free.

Just going back to the counsellor I mentioned, I remember a group exercise I did with her which I found very powerful, although some people didn't!, and it seems relevant to what you've been saying. Of course you have to do it to experience it but she gave us some plasticene and asked us to make a human figure out of it, representing ourselves, and then place it in the palm of our hand. She then asked us to distort the figure, by for example bending an arm or a leg, and then look at it as us, as broken beings, but through the eyes of a loving God who loves us even though we are damaged people. If you don't believe in God, you could look at it through your own eyes but in a self-loving way. I really did find it moving and I remember one guy absolutely crying his eyes out. Accepting that we are loved - by God, ourselves and others - despite being imperfect is very difficult but very healing. Thanks for this positive thread Wholesome.

Wholesome 11-22-2019 11:44 AM

I understand why the man cried. Letting in God's love made me cry too. I think we should all be a lot kinder to each other and protect each other a lot better. And also be much easier on ourselves. I used to walk around with a chip on both shoulders, armor on and always ready to go on the defense, always ready with a comeback. It felt really foreign to me to even consider a loving God who would think anything of me at all. I honestly used to think that if there was an all powerful being that the last thing such a being would be interested in was me. Now I tell my kids that we are all the Word made Flesh and when they try to deny it, I tell them that if they are from apes then they get it from their fathers side of the family!

AlericB 11-22-2019 12:02 PM

I said something similar once asking a date if she wanted to go to Chester Zoo to see her ancestors. Luckily she laughed!

Spacegoat 11-22-2019 12:02 PM

Yeah, thanks Zenchaser. Your comments remind me that I have learned a lot about myself on this board.

Originally Posted by Wholesome (Post 7315584)
The golden rule is deeper than do unto others as you would have done unto you - it's what you do to another, you do to yourself

True. The flipside of which is 'how other people treat you is always a reflection of themselves'.

Originally Posted by Wholesome (Post 7315584)
I know now that I'm not alone, God is with me and God will never lie to me, or betray me, or abandon me.

I hear that - very much so. Thanks again, good to see you and all the best :hug:

Wholesome 11-23-2019 03:59 AM

I really like when I'm able to name something. I like words, they can caste magical spells, or create horrible curses, they can be very powerful. The words for abuse are cognitive dissonance. I don't think I've ever used those words before, but that's what it does to the mind. It creates a split where there is a conflict between 2 opposing beliefs, on one side there is the belief that the person loves you and can be trusted and relied upon, on the other is the fact that they are the last person to be relied upon and they certainly shouldn't ever be trusted ever again. There is a fundamental denial of self when the victim is asked to compromise their own reality to participate in the deception of the betrayal. It's really sick. And hard to disentangle from due to the gaslighting and character assignation the narcissist uses to maintain the illusion. They use your own love and loyalty against you.

Healing the cognitive dissonance is the way to break the spell, in this case.

Spacegoat 11-23-2019 05:47 AM

Yup, you are absolutely right and I know a bit about this (if not a lot)

Also... Heal Yourself and Move - These 4 words have just coming back into my mind, over the years (and years).

Sounds easy, and it should be, but it aint. It's the only solution though.

Wholesome 11-24-2019 03:27 AM

Ever consider how the words exercise and exorcise are almost the same? Maybe moving our bodies helps us exorcise our demons? I know I've worked out some issues on the dance floor.

I remember when, I remember, I remember when I lost my mind
There was something so pleasant about that place.
Even your emotions had an echo
In so much space

And when you're out there
Without care,
Yeah, I was out of touch
But it wasn't because I didn't know enough
I just knew too much

Does that make me crazy?

Spacegoat 11-24-2019 10:01 AM

No, I hadn't actually considered that one before!

You make a good point, a few good points even :)

Wholesome 11-25-2019 08:11 AM

I'm reading the bible for the first time. I was raised totally secular, my parents sort of lived on the wrong side of the law, so no church or praying at my house. I'm reading it backwards and started at the new testament because Jesus is what interests me most, and I was just reading the parable about how the sheep that was found is all the more valuable because of what it took to get it back. I find that so beautiful. I think that's why God allows bad things to happen, because pain is such a powerful teacher, and the harder a thing is to do or overcome, the more valuable the rewards are. Plus what's the point of free will unless it's to give us a chance to choose the Light and the Truth. You choose it despite it all. Choose love instead of hate. Anger and hate and resentment are easy, and they can feel good too, nothing like some righteous anger and indignation, or taking out your wrath. It's hard to repent and take responsibility, and be honest, and turn the other cheek. I really like that Christianity has a savior who shows us mercy and forgiveness and teaches us to do the same.

AlericB 11-25-2019 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Wholesome (Post 7317676)
I think that's why God allows bad things to happen, because pain is such a powerful teacher, and the harder a thing is to do or overcome, the more valuable the rewards are.

The fact that God allows bad things to happen must be one of main reasons that people can't believe in a good God. By bad I mean there is harm, grief and death.

If you ask why there are theae things imo there's only one justification for it. And that's that God couldn't create a universe like this with people, beings like us, in it without these bad things also being part if it. Presumably God could create a universe in which there is no suffering but we wouldn't be the same kind of beings in such a world that we are. As you say, we would no longer be people who can learnt things from pain or overcoming obstacles. In other words, suffering has to be a necessary part of a universe that has beings like us in.

That's not an argument to justify anyone else's suffering though - no one has the right to do that for someone else.

Wholesome 11-25-2019 11:43 AM

We live in a duality matrix. Light and dark, up and down, hot and cold, love and hate, life and death, regenerate or degenerate, asleep or awake, pleasure or pain. Like how every sin has an opposing virtue that we can either learn from through our mistakes, or not. Turning those vices into virtues.

I heard an interesting thought that humans are the earths throat chakra since we have speech and that it's about achieving a kind of harmony and balance, like how Jesus died to a-tone for our sins. I think maybe karma is a way of keeping things balanced, and that's why they all talk about the Path and the Way. The whole world sure could use some harmony and balance

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