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Old 12-25-2019, 06:29 AM
  # 81 (permalink)  
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Beautiful song, Wholesome. The Midnight Mass was simply breathtaking. The choir was exquisite, and yes, it brought me to tears. Part way through, the congregation hold the hands of people sat beside, in front and behind and say....well, I'm not religious, but I'm sure it was 'peace be with you'. And in front were a young boy and girl, and they spun around and performed this ritual, it was moving.

At the end, the Bishop stood beside the exit door, and bade each person farewell. His sermon, spoken without script, was pertinent to myself and my losses this year.

When it came my turn at the exit door, he held my hand in both of his, and I placed my other hand over his. The Bishop reached down, and I stood on my tiptoes, and it was so natural, he kissed me on my cheek, and I kissed his. He said some phrases, but I didn't hear them. I'd stood in line for ages, looking ahead, and he only did that action with a few of the congregation.

It was that link, that contact, that carried me out into the evening at 1.40am, buzzing higher than any alcoholic drink. I felt renewed and cleansed. And I felt hope. I still do. If I never visit a church/cathedral again, I'll never forget that magical Mass, and the kind, insightful, Bishop.
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Old 12-25-2019, 07:10 AM
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Your story just made me cry again Tatsy. Lot of beauty in the world.

I've lived both ways now that I've found my way back to the straight and narrow path, and I have to say that the path with heart is way better than the path of the godless hedonist! I'm so glad that I'm not that messed up, lost and addicted person I used to be. I have so much gratitude that found recovery and have been able to heal the way I have. Thank God and SR for helping me. I pray for everyone to find freedom from addiction.
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Old 12-25-2019, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
Part way through, the congregation hold the hands of people sat beside, in front and behind and say....well, I'm not religious, but I'm sure it was 'peace be with you'
Yes, it would have been 'Peace be with you'. Which has many meanings of course but one is that you can be at peace with your past.
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Old 12-26-2019, 02:46 AM
  # 84 (permalink)  
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Tatsy and Wholesome, your posts were very helpful, thanks.

I'd like to ask the question, where do we get peace? I think most people of any faith would say that it comes from God but specifically it comes from a life of prayer. It doesn't come out of nowhere and it doesn't just happen to us but it comes out of spending time day in and day out in praying to the God that you believe in.

If you believe in a God of perfect love it is very natural that you would want and even long for the presence of this God. I heard this described by a monk once as a 'pining for the gaze of God'. It's a pining for a gaze that communicates to us unconditional love so that we experience in the loneliness of our human state that we aren't alone, that God is always gazing upon us.

So prayer is set aside specifically to call to mind that reality, and not just call it to mind but to really experience it, to experience the gaze of God and put our hearts at rest and ease and peace.
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Old 12-26-2019, 03:15 AM
  # 85 (permalink)  
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People sometimes don't find a purpose in life and find life valueless. I believe religion can help people find this if they help them see the beauty and kindness that is around them, and offer kindness and friendship when it's not.

How to Destroy the West: Corrupt the young. Get them away from religion, encourage their interest in sex. Make them superficial by focusing their attention on sports, sensual entertainments and other trivialities. Always preach true democracy, but seize power as fast and ruthlessly as possible. Encourage government extravagance; destroy its credit. Produce fear with rising prices, inflation and general discontent. By specious argument, cause the breakdown of the old moral virtues – honesty, sobriety, self-restraint. Cause registration of firearms to leave the population defenseless. Vladamir Lenin


I came across this quote recently when I was learning about the Bolshevik revolution and the fates of the poor Russian Christians. I never learned a thing about the Bolsheviks in school, I guess because the winner in history gets to tell the story, and these individuals had already infiltrated Canada's education with their Marxist demonic ideas. Clearly they won the war because Lenin's quote pretty much exactly describes the issues facing us today in the West. The nihilism and lack of faith and erosion of values and break up of families. It seems to me that these Leftists LOVE broken families and single women. You wouldn't believe how single mothers and financially rewarded here in Canada! It makes women dependent on the state for protection and creates endless voting blocks, and makes the children vulnerable and ensures they are raised by the state and get even more indoctrination through state day cares. It's quite deliberate and quite sick. Once I start thinking about all the surveillance, with these commie policies and how insane our leaders are, I get scared. China's SkyNet AI Beast and social credit system are terrifying! We all need to wake and say NO. Can you imagine living in a world where if you criticize the government, your fridge won't work, or you can't heat your home, or can't buy a bus ticket, or your friends won't talk to you anymore because they are afraid of their social credit score being lowered?

I think the solution is a call back to tradition and old family values. The reason these foreigners can burn down our churches is that there's no one there to defend them! They are indoctrinating our children and turning them trans because there's no one there to stop it - their dad's are hooked on opioids and porn and their mom's are busy stuck in some cubical hating their lives. We need our faith back and the morals from our Good Book.
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Old 12-27-2019, 02:59 AM
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I read a moving account of helping people who are in darkness by a monk who was part of a team helping people who were actually living inside huge drains in a canal full of trash in South American city. I'll have to condense it but I'll try to relay it as accurately as I can.

They used to go out daily with a van to give them coffee and soup. One day they had fed a lot of people but the monk saw a drain further up and went over to it up to the edge and looked inside and it was just black. He couldn't see much but all of a sudden a man walked out and he was emaciated, wearing rags and he looked at the monk and started saying, in Spanish, 'I'm sorry, I'm sorry'. And the monk thought 'What are you sorry for?' And the man goes on to say 'I'm sorry you had to come here and see me like this. I don't want to be here but Satan has me by this...' and he holds up his hand and shows a needle filled up with a drug of some kind. And he says 'I want to leave this but I can't leave this but thank you for coming.' And then he pointed up to a catwalk that crossed the canal where some people just happened to be walking along and said 'Everyday they walk by, they look down and all they see is trash. But you come and you see us and you bring God to us, thank you.' And in his account the monk said that he was standing there in front of this man and thinking 'Who am I to be here at this moment with this man in the midst of his suffering. Who am I to be standing before him looking at the beauty of this human being in the midst of this darkness.' And he just said to the man 'I don't know what I can do for you.' And the man said 'I can't come for the food', and the monk said 'Well can I pray for you? What's you name?' And he said the man just looked at him and said 'Emmanuel'. This name means 'God with us'.

And the monk said as he was looking at the man and beginning to say a short prayer with him he was overcome with thr thought that he had walked over the catwalk so many times and in so many situations of his life and finally at that moment discovered that where he was right then was where he wanted to be for the rest of his life. Standing right there in the ugliness of the situation being given the gift from him of being able to encounter God and being given the gift in his life to be able to give the hope of God to him, to let him know he's not alone. As well as bring light to the people he helped, the monk found God light presence waiting for him there as well.
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Old 12-27-2019, 08:27 AM
  # 87 (permalink)  
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Your story reminds me of the saying about how if you aren't seeing God, then you aren't looking low enough. It was really nice, thanks.

What a heavy post I made yesterday! Boy, I really know how to spiral! That's the thing with going down rabbit holes.... at some point you've got to turn around and find your way back out....
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Old 12-27-2019, 04:07 PM
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'Curiouser and curiouser' said Alice in Wonderland!

Of course, curiosity, the desire to know, is a very natural thing. St. Thomas Aquinas says that curiosity is good, especially in the beginning, but it has to lead to 'studiousness', which he defines as 'knowledge pursued well'. So you're pursuing knowledge for the right reasons. Your motivation is good. You're not pursuing knowledge for the sake of using it for gossip for example!

Another bad motivation would be pursuing knowledge just for distraction. Aquinas said that curiosity like this is like intemperance in eating (gluttony as he puts it). Like constantly nibbling on snacks at Christmas just because they're there and they're distracting versus trying to just eat healthily at mealtimes.

So what he was saying was that the oppossing virtue to the 'vice' of this kind of flitting curiosity is not humility and not thinking small but of asking the big questions of God and truth and everything but doing it in a 'studiousness' way where the motivation is to learn for it's own sake in a kind of non-flitting way!

Do you have a 'biggest' question at the moment?
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Old 12-27-2019, 09:30 PM
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It's all related to the structure of the universe, the tree of knowledge.

Phi^2 = the dual flow of the torus which decides the structural pattern of the matter in the world, male/female, +/-, black/white(and all the negatives in the spectrum). In other words, this is the light bearer, lucifer. Phi by itself is represented by the Hz(cubit) system ladder 432(216*2, 216 being the anti-value of 666).

Pi = The energy potential of all matter in this veil of the universe(I think). It's symbolized by the Hz(cubit) system ladder of 444, being the anti-value of 432. If you know your music interval calculations you can see that this system has the note E as 666 in one octave, 333 being lower.

Now. If we take Pi and subtract it by Phi^2 (Pi-Phi^2) it equals the measure of the royal egyptian cubit as a ratio. The decimal is movable. And the first tuning system that comes without moving the decimal and by multiplying with 2 you move up one octave, do it many times and you'll get C=134hz, which in Equal temperament is A=450hz, but in just intonation it would be closer to A=446.6, being the number meaning for light itself, the number of man as simple gematria only gives us approximates. If you moe the decimal point to the right by three points and "enlarge" the number you get 523.558664 and that is almost C in the standard musical unit we have today A being 440hz.

Notice that 446=223 down by one octave, and that in reverse is 322. Mozart also said this is the tuning system he insisted harmonized best (according to mans ear). He actually said A=421. something but that is just Ab if A = 446.6

So. the cubit number (Pi-phi^2=0.523558664.................) is the true unit of measure and you can use it to convert meter to cubit's and vice versa. It's also supposed to be the unit of measure of the angels (the law's of the universe).

The world is music. This is jacob's ladder. This is the tree of knowledge. It's all the same wherever you look.

432 - 440 - 444 (approximates).

Where by the lord do you stand in heaven and on earth? On his left side, or his right? Seek to be yellow as close to white as you can. Seek to understand this with humbleness and tribute to the lord. So ye won't be like pharisees.

Don't forget your inner cup(heaven) so your outer cup will be clean also!

There is much left out in the context I wrote as this is related by all the factors of the world. All constants and main laws of atoms and so on and so forth. Create your inner cloud of wisdom above your knowledge and you will see. But never forget care/love/happiness, belief/faith and hope!

I read this somewhere (don't remember where to give proper credit to the author) and I saved it because I thought it was really interesting. Did you know there are ways to write geometric shapes into music? To me that sounds like being able to create holograms? That's cool eh! J.S. Bach knew how to do it. I would love to understand how to do that! The word uni-verse has the secret right there.

Jacob's ladder is also the spine with it's 33 vertebrates. The bottom of our spines has a conx like tip that holds the sacred secrum that we need to raise to our pineal glands to illuminate our minds.

I have a lot of questions. I've been down some really crazy rabbit holes. I've scared myself really badly a few times! It was the comprehension of evil that made me understand that spiritual warfare is real and I needed to put on my spiritual armor and get right with God. The bible tells us to watch and understand the devils tricks so we don't keep falling for them.

I have to say that sometimes I get mad too because I fell for lots of the lies. I debased myself badly, in many ways, for many years. I have gone as far as to think that my own parents, in a way, sacrificed me to Molech by steering me so wrong and encouraging me to be such a little degenerate by giving me drugs and getting me so addicted. I've done some really sleazy things over the years. I was really good at being bad. I used to think we were just smart monkeys riding a rock, flying through space, and that none of it mattered, so why not go for it! I feel like such a fool now that I understand. I had/have a lot of shame to work out. I think shame keeps a lot of people stuck because they don't want to acknowledge that they have been tricked and face up to the shame of it. Dealing with shame is key to breaking free from illusions and finding acceptance.
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Old 12-28-2019, 12:41 AM
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I thought that was very insightful Wholesome. I agree that shame can keep us stuck. I think this works in addiction where we feel good in the moment but we feel shame afterwards and this hooks us up to a cycle of shame.

My parents also gave me drugs that set me on a spiral too. That and other things gave me a sense of shame too, of feeling dirty. When I look back I see myself as quite a good person, a lot purer than I am now, but at the time I felt that I was 'good at being bad' too. Shame has a way of holding this sense of feeling dirty over our heads so we think we're not good enough and that no-one can possibly like or love us after all the 'bad' things we've done. And that can propel us into doing more of the things that led to the shame in the first place because we want to be loved so we'll try to get that feeling however we can.

I believe that God wants us to be free and doesnt want us to be living under the weight of shame. Christianity, and that's the only faith I can speak from, is not about shame or 'sin' management but about being free and redeemed from our shame and brokenness amd knowing that we are loved unconditionally.

Our earlier life does not have to dictate our current and future life. Think of yourself as a young girl before your sense of shame came in when you were free and unselfconscious and didn't really care about what other people thought. That's how God wanted you to be then and I believe he wants that for you now. Of course you're an adult now with many responsibilities but God doesnt want you to have a life of shame but a life of freedom and being fully alive.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on any of that!
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Old 12-28-2019, 02:57 AM
  # 91 (permalink)  
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It's like the abuse marks you in ways that are invisible, but still detectable. I would attract others who also felt unworthy and no good. I remember going to school and seeing the girls who were "normal" and feeling so outside of things. In many ways, drugs saved me because they gave me a confidence that I didn't otherwise have, and connected me with the other kids who were outsiders. I guess I was kind of like a street kid, I had a home, but I hated it there. At one point I was living with a 27 year old guy and I was like 16. I just didn't want to go home. Crazy. I thought I was grown up, I'd certainly dealt with adult issues, but at 16 I should have been protected, not left to be used by some perverted guy.

I called my dad the other day because I bought my kids bibles for Christmas and I wanted to put a family tree in them, so I wanted to know my grandparents birthdays. He didn't even know his own mothers birthday! It actually softened the sting of how he has never once called me on my birthday.

My mother ended up homeless for awhile. It was hard to watch, and it was hard not to think, on some level, that she had it coming. I know that sounds awful to say about my own mother, but she threw away her family with both hands. She literally sold the house out from under us and told us to get lost. She had some great party out there to be at and we were dragging her down! In the end, she paid a heavy price for it. And every time she called me for money, I gave it to her, even though I didn't forget the times I came to her for help as a very young woman, and she turned me away. I was pregnant with my first son and I came to her for help and she told me no.

I really don't know how we put a lid on the past and close it up and forget about it and move on. I think it's more like we get tempered by our experiences, like steel in a fire. I've found learning about astrotheology to be very healing. Not just studying my chart, but also studying my family's charts. It's almost like seeing a blueprint of the soul. The study of the stars is the oldest science we have.

Letting God into my heart was incredibly healing, and maybe the hardest part of the whole process. I had really put up some high walls. I thought people who believe in God were soooooo stupid. I thought it was for people who wouldn't grow up and were like gullible children who still believed in Santa and the tooth fairy. I wasn't just a non-believer, I would scorn it and get angry about it. I see it now in others, the anger and defensiveness against God. A lot of people feel very betrayed by God, and I understand why, there's a lot of pain and ugliness in the world. I think that's the point of freewill, to seek the Light despite all the darkness. To overcome.
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Old 12-28-2019, 10:26 AM
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That was an inspiring post Wholesome, thanks.

Originally Posted by Wholesome View Post
It's
I really don't know how we put a lid on the past and close it up and forget about it and move on. I think it's more like we get tempered by our experiences, like steel in a fire.
I think you gave the answer in your previous post: by acceptance. If we are going to grow we have to accept who we are and where we are now. I think we can overcome the sense that we have been tempered by our suffering like steel in the fire if we also accept the fact that we're not meant to stay where we are if we're not happy.

Accepting who we are means accepting ourselves with our flaws, strengths, weaknesses and all the hurt we carry from other people. We also have to accept the reality of our situation. We have to accept where we are and what we are in the midst of because that's what real. That doesn't mean we can't wish that some things hadn't happened because that's also real and true but we still have to accept that they did happen and that this is where we are now. And we also have to accept that maybe we should be moving on.

This doesn't mean that we should resign ourselves to how things are. We can and should work on ourselves and on our lives but first we must admit the existing facts otherwise everything becomes false. Talking about God again, but if we're to have a healthy relationship with God we have to admit that this is the person we are. This gives us experience of the freedom we spoke about before because if we can say 'this is who I am and this is part of my current reality' we can also say 'but I'm also made for something more and also made to go further'.

Religion rearing it's head again but what gives us the strength to accept who we are and where we are and what we're made for is our confidence in a God who loves us. Even if there's real brokeness and 'evil' in our lives, God still loves us. And if we have trust that we are loveable and loved, we can accept ourselves and our situation.
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Old 12-28-2019, 11:30 AM
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You mention acceptance of our past selves, Aleric, and that is so true for me, to abate shame. I'm shameful not because of any wrongs I did to others, but the wrong I did to myself, by accepting the wrongful behaviour of others, against me. Thereby becoming a party to that wrong behaviour. I used to call it self-sabotaging, but now, I realise it was the path of least resistance, the least conflict, lazy way, which caused unnecessary and great suffering on my part.

Of course, drink played a starring role, I knew I should be taking action and righting wrongs, or at least, attempting to! But no, alas, I just necked drink after drink, ostrich style.

What is your vision of your 'God' Aleric, and what is the nature of your relationship to your 'God'. You asked for a question, so I thought I'd pose a huge one!
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Old 12-28-2019, 12:26 PM
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Hi Tatsy,

I didnt realise I'd asked for a question but of course happy to answer it...

What is my vision of my 'God'?

Well, I don't think there's this material world and in addition we've got this other complicated thing, God. I think there is God, the supreme mind, knowing and creating and perhaps enjoying the universe. I believe that's the ultimate reality and there couldn't be any physical reality at all without that. This is really just Idealism (the philosophical opposite of materialism but probably not as well known) which holds that no physical thing can exist on it's own, it has to be a content of consciousness.

What is my relationship with my 'God'?

I think the supreme consciousness, God, creates other finite consciousness such as us to share something of God's life.

So it's not that I look at the material world and think 'Ah! There might be an extra bit, God'. That's not how I look at it. I start from the very different starting point of both Idealism and Christianity that mind is the ultimate reality.

Let me ask you the same question. What is your conception of God/ultimate reality and how do you relate to it?
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Old 12-28-2019, 11:54 PM
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Yeah acceptance and living in the truth, no matter how much the truth hurts. It's easier said than done, the temptation is to distort or minimize or avoid. And I think shining a light into the darkness can only be done when a person is ready. I believe that suppression is real, and necessary, until the mind is mature enough to be ready for it. Our unconscious mind is there to protect us from the things we can't handle. All of this crying and rehashing of my trauma couldn't have happened in childhood, or in my 20's or 30's, I wasn't ready. Those things needed to stay buried until mature me could deal with them. It's why my friend could betray me the way she did and I suppressed it the way I did. As an adult, I was already good at doing it, absorbing an unpleasant truth and burying it. I knew how to keep a secret and I understood the game where my loved one hurts me and we pretend it didn't happen.

It has really helped me in my healing to remember that I am a immortal soul here having a human experience. I think we choose our parents and the circumstances we are born into. I'm even born with birth marks, I have one right over my heart. I've heard before that birth marks are a sign of how a person died in a past life, and now I always notice people who have them and more times than not, they look like they could be a mortal wound... so who knows? Maybe I was a warrior princess in my last life?!
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Old 12-30-2019, 01:35 AM
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I think we have an immortal soul too. I like the definition of the soul that it's a unity of our consciousness that consists of our values, memories and all our thoughts and experiences that's distinct from anyone else's and it's not made different by our bodies. It's a continuing stream of experiences.

If the soul immortal? It's a big question of course but I can imagine taking my soul and sticking it in another body quite easily.

We could chose our religion and this could be a resurrection body or reincarnation. Buddhists and Hindus take the view that there are laws of karma, laws of cause and effect in the spiritual realm, that determine what our reincarnated body will be. So if you went from being a warrior princess to the person you are now this was probably a result of good karma you aquired in that life, perhaps by sparing people's lives in battle!

The Jewish, Christian and Muslim view is different, although similar in that our next body will be different than the one we have now . It's resurrection of the body into a body that can never be sick or feel pain.

But in either view, our personality will be re-embodied and we'll go on growing, learning new things and having new experiences.
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Old 12-30-2019, 09:00 AM
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From what I've been learning, the Jews and Muslims are against Christians. Both the Talmud and Koran seem to be against us. I found learning about them to be scary. I wish we all didn't have to live together. I know it's not "PC" to say so, so maybe this post will be taken down, and I wish their books said different... it would certainly set my mind more at ease if they did. I'm still learning about all the religions though, so something could happen that makes me change my mind! I hope so.

Reincarnation just feels right to me. And now that I've had this spiritual awakening and researched my astrological chart and numerology, I feel certain that I've been through before. My gnosis is that we keep incarnating until we are ready to level up and then we go somewhere else, maybe heaven. There's supposed to be 7 levels of heaven and hell, with the Earth in the middle. I feel like that might be more accurate since there are so many of us unworthy or either heaven or hell. Not to mention how hard is to become fully human in just one lifetime. I think the Earth is like a big school and to get out we go through the Sun God Jesus, or if we aren't, our moon mother Mary sends us back to to try again. Just like the song, we are spirits in the material world. Jesus says to be in this world, but not of it.
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Old 12-30-2019, 12:13 PM
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Well, the opposite of what you are saying about the Jewish religion and Islam would be to say that these are as equally valid paths to salvation and as equally authentic ways to experience God as Christianity is. I wouldn't say that exactly because I believe God cannot be completely known and so it simply cannot be known whether all experiences of it are equally valid nor if all paths to it are equally valid.

I do think though that although God is beyond our comprehension, he is disclosed through all of these religions and this is why they share a common core. They all strive to overcome selfish desire as an appropriate response to God and envisage God as the embodiment of the highest possible degree of goodness, beauty and value.

We simply cannot know the complete truth about God. We can only know what he has disclosed to us. Just like no one here can know the complete truth about you, but only what you choose to share in your posts. Anyone who claims that their own views or the views of their own religious tradition hold the complete disclosure of God is almost certainly wrong and I would close the book or web page at that point!
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Old 12-30-2019, 01:42 PM
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I just have a hard time with the difference between Jesus saying turn the other cheek, and their profit saying to cut off our heads. And there are some very concerning passages in the Talmud. The Talmud permits what the Torah forbids. From what I've put together, they worship Saturn, and we worship the Sun. You can tell from their symbology, and the little squares they wear on their head, and the black kabba the Muslims circle. Also the Muslims worship the moon, they even base their calendar on it. We all worship the stars and we always have, we just don't all worship the same gods and it's a mistake to think we do. There are certain keys, and astrology, symbology, etymology, are a few that help to decipher the riddles. Kabb(allah) kab(baal)ah. It's right there.

I've taken in a lot of information in a short period of time and had my whole value system turned upside down. If you'd asked me last year I wouldn't have known a thing about religion, or cared about it. I was a liberal! Now I think that what someone believes is everything, even though I'm still trying to figure out what I believe!

Like the other day I was reading about astrology and I had the insight that Saturn/Jupiter could be Satan/Jehovah, and Mars/Venus could be Adam/Eve, and our Sun/Moon could be Jesus and Mary. Interesting idea....
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:38 AM
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That is an interesting idea. Mars is often associated with men and Venus with women, although I don't know why! I was thinking really of the book 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' which I haven't read but I've heard it's good (from women!)

we just don't all worship the same gods and it's a mistake to think we do.
I agree that all religions are different and have different doctrines. But when you're learning about different religions what is the most important question in your mind? Let me just guess and say it's something like "What is the nature of the supremely Real?" and you can tell me if it's something different.

You've learnt about a lot of subjects such as astrology that I know nothing about. So I'm interested in what they say to you when you read about them with this central question in mind.

I haven't read much about religion but from the little I have read they seem to have a common core experience. By 'core' I mean that it focus on the important question above "What is the nature of the supremely Real?"

It's common because there is an overlapping description of the Real. Both God, Brahman in the Indian traditions and Nirvana in the Buddhist tradtion have the character of wisdom, infinity, intelligence and bliss. Both God and Brahman form the one and only
self-existent, on which all other beings depend (there is no concept of a creator in Buddhism - the universe has existed forever).

You may well not agree but this says to me that these descriptions refer to the same reality and experience of that reality is exoerience if the same thing. A Franciscan monk and a Buddhist monk will hold wildly different ideas about the Real but their behaviour will be very similar, both showing loving kindness, self-control and service to others.

Why are their beliefs so different? I imagine it's because of different philosophical assumptions about ultimate reality and different ways of seeing life in the two traditions. Perhaps people should choose their religion on the basis of their culture. Like you, I'm a Western liberal, strictly an English liberal. That is what I am and I can only speak from that position. So for me, six-day creationism in Christianity and reincarnation in the Indian religions are all ruled out because I don't believe they are compatible with the scientific world view. For other people, the choices will be different depending on their cultural framework.
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