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Old 11-25-2019, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Wholesome View Post
We live in a duality matrix. Light and dark, up and down, hot and cold, love and hate, life and death, regenerate or degenerate, asleep or awake, pleasure or pain. Like how every sin has an opposing virtue that we can either learn from through our mistakes, or not. Turning those vices into virtues.
Interesting thoughts and it's quite revealing to ask why we would call one of these opposites a sin or vice and the other a virtue. Why is love a virtue for example and hate a vice and not the other way around? Where does our assessment of this come from?

Either we're saying that we just happen to prefer love to hate, like we may prefer football to rugby, or we're saying that, whatever our personal thoughts may be, love is actually and objectively better than hate.

But if we say the latter we are also saying that there is a third thing in addition to love and hate in the universe, that there is some kind of objective moral law that says that love is better than hate. And because this moral law is able to say that love is absolutely better than hate - that it's not just a matter of personal opinion - it is, or the being (God) who made the law, is a step back and more fundamental than either duality (love or hate).
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Old 11-26-2019, 10:52 AM
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I've been writing down quotes lately and I have a good one about cosmic moral law.

"Cosmic love is absolutely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like them or not."

I think it's ok to hate sin because of the kind of misery that it spreads. It's all about intent. The idea of how the same metal that can be used to harvest a crop can also be used to form a weapon to slay your neighbor. We all have that choice to use our intent as a way to contribute, or exploit. Not to reduce things too much. But if we choose the dark side then I think we make those cosmic lessons much more difficult and attract more darkness. I remember hearing a line in a Howling Wolf blues tune about not making God make him anymore. Like how many times do we go against that still quiet voice inside? I know that I was the cause of my own undoing more times than not.
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Old 11-26-2019, 03:05 PM
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Wholesome, Henri Nouwen describes this need to hear this still small voice like this:

"Many voices ask for our attention. There is a voice that says, 'Prove that you are a good person.' Another voice says, 'You'd better be ashamed of yourself.' There also is a voice that says, 'Nobody really cares about you,' and one that says, 'Be sure to become successful, popular, and powerful.'

"But underneath all these often very noisy voices is a still, small voice that says, 'You are my Beloved, my favor rests on you.' That's the voice we need most of all to hear."
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Old 11-29-2019, 10:50 AM
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I'm dealing with the blow back of dealing with my past. I confronted someone who did me a great injustice. She will never and can never allow her sin to be revealed. The reason it was able to happen is that it was familiar to me, I'd already experienced the sick secret ******* betrayal dynamic from my parents and my husband, why not my best friend too. So I kept the secret for years an denied my own reality and needs. It was grotesque. All I want is a clean break but I can't have it because my boyfriend and her husband are friends, but my boyfriend just participated in her sick nonsense and I caught him at it. I intuited it and I was proved right. I accused him of being just like my dad, he never stuck up for me either. Oh the irony. Things just go round and round... just lost souls swimming in a fish bowl....****. It's the same thing as when I left my husband and he was the one with the money and the power and he told everyone I was a liar and I am not a liar. I don't care what the consequences are, I'm not living in lies. And I'm not being punished for someone else's sins anymore.
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Old 11-29-2019, 03:35 PM
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I think it's good that you listened to your intuition and followed up on it. It shows that you trust your feelings about things and allow them to come into your awareness. Sometimes we can not see acts of betrayal that are really easily seeable because we want to try to preserve the trusting relationship we used to enjoy. We probably do see it on a deeper level but just kind of shutdown or go numb and don't processs it. The fact that you refuse to live in lies is part of the healing you describe that you are going through.
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Old 11-30-2019, 02:57 AM
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The cognitive dissonance with her was so strong. I loved her so much that I refused to accept the truth and just never allowed myself to think about what she had done. I was even the maid of honor in her wedding. Gross. What is wrong with me? Anytime the thought tried to bubble up I pushed it back down. Until this year when I really needed her and she punished me, like the sick creature that she is.

I had to keep my narcissistic ex in my life because we shared children. Well my boyfriend better watch it because he is not a child that I share with this betrayer and I want to cut her out like the cancer she is. He is the last link tying me to my old life, and after catching him yesterday, he's walking a fine line here.

I'm going to be like the Phoenix rising out of the ashes, but first it all has to burn.
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Wholesome View Post
I was even the maid of honor in her wedding. Gross. What is wrong with me? Anytime the thought tried to bubble up I pushed it back down.
There's nothing wrong with you - you were just being a good friend. And it's very natural to want to push away any thoughts of betrayal. We give a lot of ourselves in friendships and its not easy to accept that that trust has been betrayed. It's like there's a "freeze" response, to go alongside the fight or flight response, where it takes time to fully acknowledge what's happened.

Take credit for the fact that you've had the honesty and courage to face up to the reality of what happened. It must have been very difficult and also full credit for resolving to rise Phoenix-like from the ashes of all this!I agree, before you can build a new life you sometimes have to "burn down" the old one.

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Old 12-01-2019, 07:37 AM
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It's like there's a "freeze" response, to go alongside the fight or flight response, where it takes time to fully acknowledge what's happened.
I can think of the times where I actually felt like I swallowed the information down and held in my solar plexus. I've been doing a lot of meditation and binary beats/frequency sessions specifically on my root and solar plexus chakras. They are both very damaged. I think most addicts have damaged root and solar plexus chakras. I think many of us also have childhood trauma where a split was created in the mind, making us vulnerable to the later split of the Addictive Voice. Addiction is also a form of cognitive dissonance. A sick and twisted love with the substance where it's both the cure and the cause of the pleasure and pain.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Wholesome View Post
I think many of us also have childhood trauma where a split was created in the mind, making us vulnerable to the later split of the Addictive Voice. Addiction is also a form of cognitive dissonance.
Do you mean cognitive dissonance in the sense that we both want the drink and at the same time don't want to? If so, there's probably other ways of resolving it but I'm aware of two:

In AVRT, you translate "I want to drink but at the same time I don't" to "IT (the Beast) wants to drink but I don't". The "I" is no longer in conflict because it simply does not want to drink.

In The Freedom Model, you change the thought "I want to drink but at the same time I don't" to either "I want to drink and I choose to accept the negative consequences" or "I choose not to drink". Whatever your views on the first option, I think it's still true to say that the conflict has been resolved.
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Old 12-02-2019, 09:34 AM
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I think we recreate patterns and that if as a child a person is forced to hold two opposing beliefs together, like my mother loves me and my mother hurts me, and all the dysfunction and scapegoating and gaslighting that comes with that. Every time we have to deny our own needs, because in addicted/abusive homes the last thing you want to be is needy, we deny ourselves and that creates shame and anger and denial that there ever was a need in the first place. And right there is where the split happens. After that it's easy to become addicted. The schism is already there where you can wake up dying from a hangover, swearing you'll never do it again, only to be doing it again only a few hours later. That sick love where it creates the pain and also heals it. Traumatic bonding.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Wholesome View Post
I think we recreate patterns and that if as a child a person is forced to hold two opposing beliefs together, like my mother loves me and my mother hurts me, and all the dysfunction and scapegoating and gaslighting that comes with that.
Your whole post made a whole lot of sense to me and I could certainly relate to it. I quoted this bit though, not only to say that I didn't know what gaslighting meant!, but also that a child in the circumstances you describe is going to be made to make a fundamental choice about how they see themselves.

You describe a child holding two oppossing beliefs, that her mum loves her and that she hurts her. Seems to me there are just two ways of resolving this dilemma/emotional dissonance. She can think "Well I must be bad and be deserving of this punishment". If that's the case, she's likely to develop the inner belief that she's essentially bad and worthless.

Or she could rebel and think "Wow, this is really unfair. I didn't deserve this!" This thought would support growing up into a woman with good self-esteem.

But although the latter is obviously the better choice for her, it's also the more difficult choice. If she decides that she's unjustly punished she's also saying that her mum is unjust and can get things wrong. This would be a very scary thought because, as a child, she's totally dependent on het mum for her care. It's probably a lot easier to think "Well my mum is perfect and will always look after me perfectly therefore I must be bad". Of course, I'm not saying that she would think in actual sentences like this but this may be the sense of what she thinks.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:08 PM
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I think kids naturally think all adults understand and are good, especially our parents. It's hard to accept that our parents can be deeply flawed people, but it's inconceivable as a young child to understand that. I'm 41 and just starting to disentangle from these emotional webs from my parents. I did all this inner child work this summer where I did meditations and went back to old memories and allowed myself to resolve the shame. Shame work was hard! I have never cried like that. But it was good, it was worth it. The idea is to go back and rescue yourself at various ages and become your inner child's champion. I know it's cheesy, but I credit it with me being able to finally confront the Betrayer. It's kinda like Carl Jung's shadow work.

All we deny in ourselves—whatever we perceive as inferior, evil, or unacceptable—become part of the shadow.
Carl Jung
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:09 PM
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It was nice to read that Wholesome. Do you know what your next steps in your journey are going to be? A pretty broad question I know! I feel I've just about got through a few things over the past year - not least a divorce - and I feel I need to start looking to the future again. I really don't want the focus of my life to be on work and living the bachelor existence again so I think I need to do something that's spiritual but in a practical kind of way to stop that happening but I don't quite know what that could be.
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Old 12-04-2019, 12:41 AM
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What's my next plan? Well I just demoted myself to part time at work, after taking a few months off. I was just such an emotional mess that I almost quit. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I won't be working too hard! All I want to do is learn about God and religions and play the piano. I'd love to join a band.

I hardly have any friends when I used to not have enough time to party with everyone who wanted to party with me. I'd like a nice new girlfriend who's straightedge but still base and cool.

I dream about getting out of the city and buying something with some land and having gardens and animals. The older I get, the less I trust the government and the system. I want to be more self reliant. I've seen people sell out over nothing, imagine what people will do when there is real money and power involved, and it's those who are the most corruptible who are drawn to these positions. I want out of the city. We are being flooded with foreigners and it is another inversion when our rulers tell us that diversity is our strength. I think we live in a fallen world led by the Adversary and things are getting more inverted all the time. Now that the scales have fallen from my eyes I can see it everywhere. Like I went to a debate and people were cheering for communism being brought in by a bloody revolt. Whoa.

I'm really sorry about your divorce. I know what it's like to have to start over, it's tough. It's like losing a limb when we lose a partner, it's such an adjustment and can be so painful. I don't think men get told this the way women do, but you should concentrate on yourself right now. Do the healing work you need to do so you attract the right person to you next time. You've been through a lot and grief is funny, it's not a linear process.
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:30 AM
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That sounds a great plan Wholesome!

I agree with you that grief is not a linear process. I used to think it was because I'd heard of the stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) and so assumed you'd always feel better once you reach acceptance. But I think now that acceptance can actually open the door to real grief. That was true for me with my divorce anyway.

So I think this is what can throw us off. We can think acceptance is the solution where all the pain ends so if we do get to acceptance and we're still feeling pain we can think that we're not grieving properly. Cognitive dissonance again: "I'm in acceptance so why am I still feeling sad?"

From what you describe, the grief you experienced over your betrayals certainly wasn't linear. It's sounds like it's lead you to question the meaning of your life and wanting to change certain things in your life. And hopefully this entire healing process you're going through will also bring back some happy memories that you may have forgotten
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Old 12-05-2019, 11:03 AM
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I've been divorced for more than 10 years and I grieved over it again this summer and dealt with old trauma and shame from it. It was actually a really beautiful process. We ended up sitting together at my son's rugby game and my ex properly apologized to me for the first time and I accepted it and it was that act of forgiving that deep old wound that opened up my heart chakra and started all the crying this summer. I'd always been so angry with him and letting down those defensive walls forced me to acknowledge how badly he hurt me. And his abandonment validated all the things I already believed about myself after growing up the way I did. It triggered all of it. But I'm so glad it happened because it feels so good to have purged it all out, I was just surprised by how much grief there was inside me. I cried for months. It was waking me up out my dreams. Just from the bottom of my soul grief and pain. It was so cathartic!

This is going to sound weird, but I am a bit of a weirdo so here goes! I felt like part of his soul followed me home and hung around for a few days while I grieved and then I sent him away with my full forgiveness and sincere well wishes and ever since our whole family has had so much more harmony. Not just him and I, but him and our kids, and me and my kids. It really is toxic to hold on to the anger, even though I think anger is what held me together and forced me keep going, it took its toll too. I'm glad I let it go. But it took me over 10 years to do it! I did a lot of drinking over my anger at him and my shame that it had happened. And he held on to it too, otherwise why bother making such a heartfelt apology?

I think all of us are a lot more tender hearted than we let on. Souls here having a human experience...
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Old 12-05-2019, 02:19 PM
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I think it's often taken for granted in our scientific world that the soul has
been displaced by the mind, and the mind is just a by-product of brain activity. But, like you, I think that there are souls. Just as you spoke about disentangling yourself from the emotional legaicies from your parents I think our souls can be disentangled from our bodies and it's that which gives us our individuality and makes immortality possible. It's like Hydrogen and Oxygen, two different substances, coming together to form one thing, water, but they're still separable.

So I didn't think it was (all that!) weird when you said you felt like your ex's soul followed you home and stayed for a while. That must be unusual though - as the great Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas said "The soul and the body could be separated but if they were this would be unnatural and improper"!
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:48 AM
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I think the biggest trick the devil ever pulled wasn't convincing the world he doesn't exist - it was convincing the world God doesn't exist.

It was learning about the dark religions that led me to God. Once I comprehended that real evil exists, I understood that the Holy War was real and that it really is about souls. Right away I knew I had to pick sides and I wasn't going to be the devils advocate ever again.

My boyfriend saw the Betrayer last night and didn't stand up for me. I hate being in the this position. I love him and I don't want to lose him but I need someone who is on my side. I'm done being a doormat for people who think they can do whatever they want to me and I'll be endlessly understanding and forgiving. Every time I catch myself thinking about the Betrayer and feeling her soul try to hang around me I mentally find the thought thread that connects her and I, and I cut it and burn it and send it back to her, and then lovingly hold my own energy in and protect my aura from her.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:32 AM
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I think belief in God is a very natural belief. We are aware of ourselves as conscious beings who enjoy certain things and find other things worthwhile and we try, and sometimes even succeed!, to bring these things about. We also know that our thoughts and feelings are very subjective and really only knowable to ourselves. We often find it very difficult to explain to others how we are really feeling. And so the idea of a subjective consciousness that we cannot fully understand but that acts to bring about desired states and that relates to others is very natural. And this is an idea of God of course.

We've known ever since we were children that we have personal agency and can bring things about if we want to. Children know that when they do just simple things like raising their arm that they are the causal agent of it. So insofar as causes exist in nature, we have reason to think that there are personal causes as well physical causes such as gravity.

And also ever since childhood, our primary sense of existence, the thing that we are most aware of, is our own
subjective consciousness. I think it's supposed that babies think that all there is is their own consciousness and it's only through learning that they realise that there are actually other people distinct from themselves. That is a reason to think that consciousness may be a basic characteristic of reality.

By contrast to all this, the idea of a totally physical reality that is governed by laws of nature, and that has no knowledge or concern about us, is a very abstract idea that is far from our ordinary experience.

Of course the fact that an idea is natural does not mean that it's true. But it does mean that belief in God is not like a scientific hypothesis which tries to explain why things are as they are by giving an objective and publicly demonstrable explanation. It's more like an natural response to things we encounter in our everyday life. It's more like the belief we hold that we and other persons exist. But it generalises the notion of persons like us, who try to achieve purposes that have value to us in our own lives, to include a cosmic personal agent, God, who also has values and who seeks to actualise them in the whole world.

As this is quite long, let me just say about the rest of your post that I think you're right to expect to be put first in a relationship, and you do need to stop all contact with anyone who is pulling you down.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:17 AM
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I think it's natural to seek God too. It feels good to come into alignment with God. I was raised totally secular but at one point around 12 I remember I started going to a church up the street all by myself. I also had a Buddhist ceremony when I was backpacking Europe and had met this musician who took me to this big house outside of Paris with all these other Buddhists and this monk and he blessed me or something. I'm not sure. I didn't speak good enough French! But I've been to a bunch of Holy places, like the statue of Christ in Brazil, and all kinds of ancient monasteries in Japan, and cathedrals all over Europe. And I think my astrology shows a lot of spirituality and I'm having the craziest most intense spiritual awakening. I went seeking and I found.

What makes us so special is that we have the Creators spark of creativity. We can manifest our thoughts. We are natural born storytellers and dreamers. What other animal can do what we do? We can sing our stories! We can build the most beautiful buildings where it would take generations to complete but people would commit and excel knowing they'll never see it finished. Every single one of us is a child of God and beloved, we just need to remember who we are.

I heard this theory about how we are all in cosmic egg, the uni-verse, and we enter as falling angels or angles of Light, and leave as shooting stars. I slept so great that night thinking that I was inside God's cosmic egg. I find that thought so magical and beautiful.
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