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Alcoholic Interrupted

Old 03-18-2012, 08:02 AM
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I won't make a list of all the things...bad and positive that have happened in my life since I quit drinking in '89.

As an AA recovered alcoholic...I can testify that not any of those made me desire alcohol
Actually the only time I think about drinking is when I am shareing here or in person with others.

I will never drink again.

Forward we go...side by side
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
I find it very interesting that when the compulsion is lifted and we're freed from the demons of desire we are all just explaining the same thing albeit with a different view as to what actually happened. Trying to put an experience into words can be difficult and each persons words are going to be colored by their belief system. It's all good though!
Yeah. If its authentic, helpful, and real life -- its all good.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Zencat View Post
I too consider my alcoholism arrested, that is to say I have recovered from the active symptoms of alcoholism, of both body and mind. The idea of being recovered comes from my understanding of the medical definition of what it means to be longer symptomatic of alcoholism or as I say alcohol addiction. As far as I can tell there is no standard universal wholly agreed upon definition of being recovered. There is much opinion of what recovered means tho.

Having an addiction disorder means to me that my illness can resurface if my treatments to maintain my sobriety fail. Hence my illness is arrested and I'm not cured. If I was cured of my alcoholism, saying that I would never drink again would have some weight in my eyes. It would be like if I never drank in the first place.

I do recognize the power to 'shock the system' back in order. That being, sending the psyche a strong message with a strong exclamation that I will in fact never drink again. I think one can become what one believes. After all, strong positive beliefs have significant power over people, so why not I believe in myself. Oh conversely, strong negative beliefs can damage one as well, be those beliefs internal or external from others.

Then's there is the cold face of reality where I have seen people say some amazing cool things, only to see them also do some horribly disastrous stuff, me included.

What I strive to do is have some wellness in my life. Alcohol/drugs is not included in that plan. In the past decade I've had some successes and some failures. As a double vision alcoholic, I have two illness to treat that at times make life very challenging. Tho I do love a challenge because the rewards of overcoming a difficult challenge is a great shot to the ole self-worth thingy...just great stuff really. Resiliency...that's one thing I have, no matter what I shall overcome.
Yeah. I hear you. Challenges are the thing to embrace that get us up in the morning. Discovery of some well earned satisfaction for ourselves in having well met our day empowers us to keep doing the next right thing again and again.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:47 AM
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I find this thread to be both fascinating and useful but I can't help but think that we sometimes make this more complicated than it needs to be. Isn't the object simply to not drink? I have been sober for only five months so what do I know about a lifetime of sobriety? I just drive myself crazy when I think too much about why/where/how I drink/don't drink. None of it matters one bit if I just don't drink, right? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, everyone must walk their own path, but sometimes recovery seems like more self inflicted torture than is necessary. I guess mental health and sobriety are truly a "chicken or the egg" type of deal and that there is no way to separate life issues and sobriety.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I will never drink again.

The idea that that statement causes anybody any kind of problem whatsoever speaks volumes about the person being bothered by it.
My observation has been that much of the friction associated with this simple phrase stems from the assertion (often made implicity) that saying it or typing it in underlined-bold font is indicative of "real" sobriety.

With that said, I should make clear that I totally dig the fact there are folks whose recoveries depend on being able to say, indeed repeat "I will never drink again". Whatever it takes....it's all good.

So here's the question: Functionally, is there any meaningful difference between a new AA member fully embracing Step 1 and a new AVRT practioner embracing the phrase "I will never drink again"? Both seem like watershed moments to me.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by gaffo View Post
I find this thread to be both fascinating and useful but I can't help but think that we sometimes make this more complicated than it needs to be. Isn't the object simply to not drink? I have been sober for only five months so what do I know about a lifetime of sobriety? I just drive myself crazy when I think too much about why/where/how I drink/don't drink. None of it matters one bit if I just don't drink, right? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, everyone must walk their own path, but sometimes recovery seems like more self inflicted torture than is necessary. I guess mental health and sobriety are truly a "chicken or the egg" type of deal and that there is no way to separate life issues and sobriety.
Fascinating and useful. Yeah.

Not drinking is absolutely the first thing to be done in any given day. And it could be said is the last thing to be done too when we have closure for that same day no matter what happened or didn't happen. You are sooo right.

Dont be driven crazy by others talking shop talk though, okay? Recovery and / or being recovered is not a singular phenomena in and of itself. Individual experiences trump and supercede any definition of generic recovery.

Your journey is no less or more important then mine or anyone elses, and I sense that you would agree with me. You don't mean or desire to be disrespectful and so you're open minded to understanding we all walk our own walk and I hope you can see we can still walk together even if we don't all have the same experiences.

Chicken and the egg is an amusing paradox. It is also an essential lesson in understanding that there is always always secrets yet to be revealed in life as we go about are daily affairs.

Thanks for your sincere share, gaffo. Good going on being five months.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
My observation has been that much of the friction associated with this simple phrase stems from the assertion (often made implicity) that saying it or typing it in underlined-bold font is indicative of "real" sobriety.

With that said, I should make clear that I totally dig the fact there are folks whose recoveries depend on being able to say, indeed repeat "I will never drink again". Whatever it takes....it's all good.

So here's the question: Functionally, is there any meaningful difference between a new AA member fully embracing Step 1 and a new AVRT practioner embracing the phrase "I will never drink again"? Both seem like watershed moments to me.
Thanks for posting an important response, Ranger. We can now expect some back and forth between AA and AVRT experiences. It is important in this thread that we dont sideline and begin a race of competition, yeah?

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Old 03-18-2012, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
So here's the question: Functionally, is there any meaningful difference between a new AA member fully embracing Step 1 and a new AVRT practioner embracing the phrase "I will never drink again"? Both seem like watershed moments to me.
Yeah. Huge differences between the two in my books. I just want to get that out there, lol. I'll post more in a minute.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Yeah. Huge differences between the two in my books.
"There is wisdom in our differences to be discovered, you know?"
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
So here's the question: Functionally, is there any meaningful difference between a new AA member fully embracing Step 1 and a new AVRT practioner embracing the phrase "I will never drink again"? Both seem like watershed moments to me.
I agree with the watershed understanding. No functional differences in the early beginnings either way. However, as the days of abstinence gather I can't remain on Step 1 while in AVRT I can of course forever stand on my original declaration.

I made the declaration of never drinking again and I am a AA member. I made that declaration though before I accepted any kind of recovery plan or deal or way forward or whatever... I simply did not want to die as a drunken drunk and so I made a stand to never drink again to ensure not dying drunk.

I began AA Step 1 and thru to Step 12 to ensure I would never drink again and I did so because I already knew from sharing with others three things:

1. alcoholism can kill alcoholics even when they are seeking help and apparently getting help. Can't make a horse drink water. None are so blind as those who wont see. Shitt happens. Live and let live.

2. AA sobriety is in a class of its own and is unique and can only be replicated and experienced while actually living the Twelve Steps of AA in all my daily affairs. Works for me not dying drunk. Way cool.

3. I could not care less what works if it *truly and authentically* works for me even if it only works for me I will still live my journey by walking my talk and sharing my experiences to those not deaf and blind to what I am giving back. I am not an island.

AA is a program of daily intervention on my sobriety to ensure my sobriety retains its qualities as promised by living the AA Way.

AVRT is for me (and as yet I am still an early student of AVRT. Have not finished reading the RR:TNC) a completely different experience so far and I'm certain as I reach the full measure of AVRT *for me* I will gain yet another epiphany, and so what's there not to love?!!

So, to sum up, yeah they start the same but the daily living experiences between the two are light years apart is my ongoing experience...
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I agree with the watershed understanding. No functional differences in the early beginnings either way. However, as the days of abstinence gather I can't remain on Step 1 while in AVRT I can of course forever stand on my original declaration.
Yeah, the "watershed" part was my main point. The 12 stepper's full acceptance of Step 1 and the AVRT practitioner's whole-measure declaration that "I will never drink again" seem similarly pivital to me. Beyond that, living the "AA way" bears no resemblence to AVRT.

I am fortunate because Step 1 was fully sufficient to remove the obsession. So, if signatures were required on this forum I would choose:

"I will never drink again *because* I am *forever* powerless over alcohol."

Boo-ya.
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
How members share and dont share is of awesome importance of course here at SR or anywhere else. Quality has value. Sharing is the lifeblood of recovery. Of course it matters. Hundreds of thousands of shares attest to how much it matters.

Getting personal and pointing to me as a person that I am of no consequence is amusing, you know?

I agree there's value in sharing, I spent months and months in an OP rehab group, and I found the most value in the mutual support of the group sharing their experiences as we went through the early recovery process together.

I still find value in listening to what others say about recovery, and you can learn as much from a fool as from a sage. But do I care if someone thinks the way I stay sober won't work or is critical of my methodology and my chances? Not one bit. From time to time I get criticism and gloom and doom predictions about how I don't go to meetings and 'work a program'. What they mean is I don't work their program, so I just smile and say thank you.

What I do works for me, and that's what I care about.
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by BASEjumper View Post
I agree there's value in sharing, I spent months and months in an OP rehab group, and I found the most value in the mutual support of the group sharing their experiences as we went through the early recovery process together.

I still find value in listening to what others say about recovery, and you can learn as much from a fool as from a sage. But do I care if someone thinks the way I stay sober won't work or is critical of my methodology and my chances? Not one bit. From time to time I get criticism and gloom and doom predictions about how I don't go to meetings and 'work a program'. What they mean is I don't work their program, so I just smile and say thank you.

What I do works for me, and that's what I care about.
I can't learn as much from a fool as from a sage unless I'm the fool, okay?

I do care that others care enough about me to offer whatever to me they may choose. I have learned from my street life that gifts are not always wrapped in a pretty fashion before they are offered, nor do they have to be for my humble acceptance. I am grateful I am not invisible (anymore), you know?

Yes, doing it your way is certainly what you care about. No problemo.

Thanks for sharing, BASEjumper.
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I can't learn as much from a fool as from a sage unless I'm the fool, okay?

I do care that others care enough about me to offer whatever to me they may choose. I have learned from my street life that gifts are not always wrapped in a pretty fashion before they are offered, nor do they have to be for my humble acceptance. I am grateful I am not invisible (anymore), you know?

Yes, doing it your way is certainly what you care about. No problemo.

Thanks for sharing, BASEjumper.
Robby I didn't mean to imply you were a fool, I find a lot of value in what you post. I came to sobriety a broken man, humbled by my repeated failures to stay sober on my own. In the beginning I just did what I was told, and I figured out what worked for me after about a year or so. I understand that any criticism of someones program comes from a place of trying to be helpful, which is why I don't get bent out of shape about it.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post

I am in a new natural state as a recovered alcoholic. I am remade and yet I am still with my arrested alcoholic illness.
Yea, that really says it all for me as well.

So what does it mean, "still with my arrested alcoholic illness", to me?

New natural state... I don't think about drinking anymore. Sure, the occasional thought, a commercial, out to dinner, apres ski, fishing, but it has no real power anymore. I just go about my life, as best I can.

As best I can... That means lots of 6th and 7th step, for me anyway, often I need only to pray for the willingness, to be open, to change my thinking, or mood, or approach or whatever... It's not that much work... as long as I remember that it's a tool I should use whenever I am out of alignment. It works when you work it... LOLOLOL

An AA friend of mine with years and years of dry time, successful by anyone's measure, thought he had it this time, 2 years running since his last relapse... he went out 2 weeks ago, got arrested, .25 BAC... now his future is uncertain.

I said to my wife, I can't relate to that, going back out with so much to lose and nothing to gain. Then I thought to myself, I must not be a "real" alcoholic, that's not something I would ever do.



Well, not now anyway, not in my new natural state.

But it's that alcoholism that makes me think eF'd up things like ... that would never happen with me... but it's there and all I have to do is not forget it... Because in my old active alcoholic state, it is something I could, or could have, done

But I don't have to live in it, alcoholism, recovering, recovered, whatever...you know?
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BASEjumper View Post
Robby I didn't mean to imply you were a fool, I find a lot of value in what you post. I came to sobriety a broken man, humbled by my repeated failures to stay sober on my own. In the beginning I just did what I was told, and I figured out what worked for me after about a year or so. I understand that any criticism of someones program comes from a place of trying to be helpful, which is why I don't get bent out of shape about it.
BASEjumper, in no way did I think you were implying i was the fool, lol. You kiddin' me?

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Old 03-18-2012, 11:12 AM
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You know Robbie, I decided that I never again wanted to experience the level of despair that alcohol had shown me. The only solution was to never drink again. The door to that horrific place is still there but I must drink/use to open it. I prefer to keep it locked up tight, with a big no-tresspassing sign on the door.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark75 View Post
Yea, that really says it all for me as well.

So what does it mean, "still with my arrested alcoholic illness", to me?

New natural state... I don't think about drinking anymore. Sure, the occasional thought, a commercial, out to dinner, apres ski, fishing, but it has no real power anymore. I just go about my life, as best I can.

As best I can... That means lots of 6th and 7th step, for me anyway, often I need only to pray for the willingness, to be open, to change my thinking, or mood, or approach or whatever... It's not that much work... as long as I remember that it's a tool I should use whenever I am out of alignment. It works when you work it... LOLOLOL

An AA friend of mine with years and years of dry time, successful by anyone's measure, thought he had it this time, 2 years running since his last relapse... he went out 2 weeks ago, got arrested, .25 BAC... now his future is uncertain.

I said to my wife, I can't relate to that, going back out with so much to lose and nothing to gain. Then I thought to myself, I must not be a "real" alcoholic, that's not something I would ever do.



Well, not now anyway, not in my new natural state.

But it's that alcoholism that makes me think eF'd up things like ... that would never happen with me... but it's there and all I have to do is not forget it... Because in my old active alcoholic state, it is something I could, or could have, done

But I don't have to live in it, alcoholism, recovering, recovered, whatever...you know?
Yeah, Mark, I do know.
Awesome awesome share, thanks. You got it happening big time, brother. Its a good day today!!
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
You know Robbie, I decided that I never again wanted to experience the level of despair that alcohol had shown me. The only solution was to never drink again. The door to that horrific place is still there but I must drink/use to open it. I prefer to keep it locked up tight, with a big no-tresspassing sign on the door.
Yeah, brother, I can honestly understand the lockup way to go with living with the only solution that works against all perils. Thanks for sharing your uncompromising, unconditional stance, BTSO. Its inspirational.
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
My observation has been that much of the friction associated with this simple phrase stems from the assertion (often made implicity) that saying it or typing it in underlined-bold font is indicative of "real" sobriety.
Strictly speaking, 'sobriety' has no meaning within the framework of AVRT. This is because in AVRT, recovery is not a process, but an event, and life after addiction is not considered 'sobriety', but simply life. I rarely speak of 'sobriety', but I could say, without reservation, "I abstain, therefore I am."

Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
With that said, I should make clear that I totally dig the fact there are folks whose recoveries depend on being able to say, indeed repeat "I will never drink again". Whatever it takes....it's all good.
Functionally speaking, AVRT will not 'work' without a plan for permanent, unconditional abstinence. This is because it is predicated on a breakdown of the addictive mentality, a partition of the ego, so to speak. The Big Plan forces this breakdown and subsequent separation. Once this separation has occurred, full recognition of the Addictive Voice may commence.

People may have some knowledge of AVRT, and may be able to recognize some Addictive Voice prior to making that commitment, but without it, there will be no separation, and they will never be able to recognize all AV. Furthermore, without this separation, called the I/It split, AVRT will feel very much like 'white knuckling'.

Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
So here's the question: Functionally, is there any meaningful difference between a new AA member fully embracing Step 1 and a new AVRT practioner embracing the phrase "I will never drink again"? Both seem like watershed moments to me.
Both are indeed watershed moments, but with far different implications. I know because I once embraced 'Step 1'. When I truly believed that I was powerless over my desire to drink, when I believed that I wouldn't ever be able to quit and stay quit, I despaired of my life, resigned myself to my fate, and proceeded to drink myself to death. I didn't quit drinking and stay quit until I came to believe that I was not powerless, until I came to believe that I could fight back and win.
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