AA and disease.
Whether you believe alcoholism is a disease or not shouldn't affect you going to AA meetings. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" it says in the Big Book. I go to AA and I'm an agnostic, but I still do the work to stay sober.
OK, the American Medical Association considers alcoholism (addiction) to be a disease. But what difference does it make? I've been going to meetings for 20 years and have yet to hear anyone bring it up. The umbrella is addiction ... my drug of choice was alcohol but it could easily be anything else. Remember, "alcohol is but a symptom" ... it's the thinking that is the big problem. People addicted to drugs, opium, gambling and other substances that designed to get us outside ourselves are all alike.
Do you have a sponsor?
OK, the American Medical Association considers alcoholism (addiction) to be a disease. But what difference does it make? I've been going to meetings for 20 years and have yet to hear anyone bring it up. The umbrella is addiction ... my drug of choice was alcohol but it could easily be anything else. Remember, "alcohol is but a symptom" ... it's the thinking that is the big problem. People addicted to drugs, opium, gambling and other substances that designed to get us outside ourselves are all alike.
Do you have a sponsor?
Where is it said that to recover in AA we have to believe we have a disease? Seriously... This comes up from time to time ... "I don't like AA because I don't think I have a disease..." Maybe I am going to the wrong meetings or something, or read the wrong book...
I read some stuff about the insanity of alcoholism... Illness... Allergy, in that our bodies may process ethanol differently... All that....But not disease.
I am happy and recovered in AA and I never once thought I had a disease.
I read some stuff about the insanity of alcoholism... Illness... Allergy, in that our bodies may process ethanol differently... All that....But not disease.
I am happy and recovered in AA and I never once thought I had a disease.
I like the "Take what works for you and leave the rest approach", it saves you from throwing out the baby with the bathwater. All recovery programs really are nothing more than compilations of ideas, opinions and suggestions. None are divinely inspired sacred texts and I doubt that their authors ever meant them to be used as such.
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BlackoutGIRL..... agree with others that who cares if it is a "disease" or not? Personally I have never bought it. All the behaviors associated with the "disease" are observed AFTER the choice is made to consume as are the physical problems. While the AMA was pressured into calling it a disease (whole story there) most in the medical profession do not buy the AMA'S labeling of Alcoholism as a disease. Hey, smoking is addictive, destructive, kills more people then drinking but isnt classied as a disease........ I apologize for getting off topic, .....
Lame excuse for not continuing with something that has been working for you for 3.5 months now. I've been in and out of AA for 25 years....it sounds like your alcoholism or addiction is trying to get you away from your new solution and back to your old one. Let us know how it works out for ya!
Congrats on the 3.5 months!
Congrats on the 3.5 months!
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Hi all I am 3.5 months sober after 20 yrs of daily drinking, and very happy and at peace with not drinking for the rest of my life. I have a great wife two wonderful children a mortgage and a good job. I thought I was an alcoholic for a couple of years and felt I couldn't stop without help so I went to AA got sober and got a sponsor who took me through the steps. but now have been having alot of second thoughts about AA and have not been going to many meetings maybe 1 a week. My problem with AA is I don't believe I am sick with an Illness or disease. I believe I was heavily addicted to an addictive substance alcohol, which some people get more addicted to than others.
I know I can never drink again because I will always end up back where I left off , and once I have one drink I don't want to stop until I've had too much. and then the withdrawals which are cravings will start again and the addictive cycle will start again.
I like alot of things about AA, how there is always a meeting to go to for support when you feel like crap. I think the spiritual side is great to and I can see how that works for people, it teaches you to be honest, positive, have a belief in a god or higher power and to live in the moment.
So my problem is after doing the steps going to 50 or so meetings I still don't believe I have a disease or illness which is what AA is based on. I would still like to go to meetings because I like hearing peoples stories of what it was like, what happened and what it is like now, but when it comes my time to share how can I stand up and say Hi I'm Dan and I'm an Alcoholic, when I don't believe I have a disease. I could go as far as to say I was mentally ill when I was addicted to alcohol and would become mentally ill again if I started drinking, but I just can't believe that I have a disease. my second problem is friends Ive made at AA are wondering why I'm not going to meetings and that makes me feel frustrated. any words of wisdom would be gratly appreciated. Thanks SoberDan.
I know I can never drink again because I will always end up back where I left off , and once I have one drink I don't want to stop until I've had too much. and then the withdrawals which are cravings will start again and the addictive cycle will start again.
I like alot of things about AA, how there is always a meeting to go to for support when you feel like crap. I think the spiritual side is great to and I can see how that works for people, it teaches you to be honest, positive, have a belief in a god or higher power and to live in the moment.
So my problem is after doing the steps going to 50 or so meetings I still don't believe I have a disease or illness which is what AA is based on. I would still like to go to meetings because I like hearing peoples stories of what it was like, what happened and what it is like now, but when it comes my time to share how can I stand up and say Hi I'm Dan and I'm an Alcoholic, when I don't believe I have a disease. I could go as far as to say I was mentally ill when I was addicted to alcohol and would become mentally ill again if I started drinking, but I just can't believe that I have a disease. my second problem is friends Ive made at AA are wondering why I'm not going to meetings and that makes me feel frustrated. any words of wisdom would be gratly appreciated. Thanks SoberDan.
As for the disease concept, I agree it's unhelpful, but unfortunately it's also very popular. And it's not hard to see why. Once we label something as a "disease," that makes it easier to say that it isn't our fault---or at least it's not all our fault. But this is wishful thinking. In fact, we are responsible for our decisions, even under the influence of alcohol. We aren't children who don't understand the consequences of our actions. No, my behavior was unavoidably my fault. It was all my fault, and re-labeling it as a symptom of some kind of "disease" only invites an attractive self-deception.
That said, we don't have to wallow in self-pity over our past mistakes. We should, as dawnrunner suggested above, think positively and try to be happy and joyful as the situation permits. However this can be accomplished without sacrificing truth or moral responsibility.
Disease or not, it doesn't matter to me. What matters is that I have a problem and Ican't drink. Sobriety is the solution. You said it best...
Hi all I am 3.5 months sober after 20 yrs of daily drinking, and very happy and at peace with not drinking for the rest of my life.
Sounds like you've found the solution. I wouldn't stress to much about your differing beliefs or opinions of the program. Like another poster added "we all have them". The most important things is making positive changes. In time, you can come to terms with the rest.
Hi all I am 3.5 months sober after 20 yrs of daily drinking, and very happy and at peace with not drinking for the rest of my life.
Sounds like you've found the solution. I wouldn't stress to much about your differing beliefs or opinions of the program. Like another poster added "we all have them". The most important things is making positive changes. In time, you can come to terms with the rest.
Exactly what the people before me have said. It doesn't matter if you believe you are sick or not, all that matters is that it helps you to stay sober. In fact you may even bring that up at your next meeting and see if anyone else feels that way? It might be a good discussion.
Thank you to you all for your comments. I think I feel at-ease with this dis-ease thing now. Its just when you go to some meetings some people really go on and on about there disease and taking there daily medicine etc. I thought I had to believe I was always going to have a disease. who gives a **** what it is Disease, Illness, sickness or addiction. As long as I accept I can never drink alcohol again and As I started this post with I am extremely Happy and at peace with never Drinking alcohol again,
I Love being sober.
I Love being sober.
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If drinking screws you up and alcoholism is a disease, you had better quit drinking. If drinking screws you up and alcoholism isn't a disease, you still had better quit drinking.
Thank you to you all for your comments. I think I feel at-ease with this dis-ease thing now. Its just when you go to some meetings some people really go on and on about there disease and taking there daily medicine etc. I thought I had to believe I was always going to have a disease. who gives a **** what it is Disease, Illness, sickness or addiction. As long as I accept I can never drink alcohol again and As I started this post with I am extremely Happy and at peace with never Drinking alcohol again,
I Love being sober.
I Love being sober.
The definition of disease as found in Webster's Dictionary.
Main Entry: dis·ease
Pronunciation: \di-ˈzēz\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English disese, from Anglo-French desease, desaise, from des- dis- + eise ease
Date: 14th century
1 obsolete : trouble
2 : a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms : sickness, malady
3 : a harmful development (as in a social institution)
— dis·eased \-ˈzēzd\ adjective
I think alcoholism is covered under this definition. So how have your "beliefs" treated you in life so far?
Main Entry: dis·ease
Pronunciation: \di-ˈzēz\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English disese, from Anglo-French desease, desaise, from des- dis- + eise ease
Date: 14th century
1 obsolete : trouble
2 : a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms : sickness, malady
3 : a harmful development (as in a social institution)
— dis·eased \-ˈzēzd\ adjective
I think alcoholism is covered under this definition. So how have your "beliefs" treated you in life so far?
...Personally I have never bought it. All the behaviors associated with the "disease" are observed AFTER the choice is made to consume as are the physical problems. While the AMA was pressured into calling it a disease (whole story there) most in the medical profession do not buy the AMA'S labeling of Alcoholism as a disease. Hey, smoking is addictive, destructive, kills more people then drinking but isnt classied as a disease........ I apologize for getting off topic, .....
As for your statement regarding the AMA prevailing attitude; the "whole story" is that alcoholism was classified as a disease in 1991 because such a classification would thereby free up resources and technologies to study the condition in a far greater light. They weren't pigeon-holed or dragged by the tail into classifying alcoholism a disease, and you're eluding that fact is again - no disrespect - disingenuous. Most in the medical profession asked for or agreed by consensus for it to be classified "disease", in order for the economic stimulus that could follow, because they were by in large incapable of finding successful treatments and frustrated at the lack of data and resources available to study at the time. This historical fact is freely available all over the internet and within many medical journals. And since they did make the distinction that you've implied they never wanted to make, there has been countless amounts of research done that further lends empirical scientific data to the legitimacy that alcoholism is a whole helluva lot more than a case of chronic bad choices. An actual disease? Possibly. Personally I don't care what it's called as long as it's accepted and understood that the condition I had/have is maladaptive and - after a certain point of progression - preceded my own rational decision making processes and normal/logical cognitive function.
I'll re-post what I quoted in my last post from the NIAAA website to accentuate some of that much needed post-1991 research into the chronic alcoholic's maladaptive, "sick" brain.
"Chronic exposure to alcohol induces changes in neural circuits that control motivational processes, including arousal, reward, and stress. These changes affect systems utilizing the signaling molecules dopamine, opioid peptides, γ-aminobutyric acid, glutamate, and serotonin, as well as systems modulating the brain’s stress response. These neuroadaptations produce changes in sensitivity to alcohol’s effects following repeated exposure (i.e., sensitization and tolerance) and a withdrawal state following discontinuation of alcohol use. Chronic alcohol exposure also results in persistent neural deficits, some of which may fully recover following extended periods of abstinence. However, the organism remains susceptible to relapse, even after long periods of abstinence. Recent research focusing on brain arousal, reward, and stress systems is accelerating our understanding of the components of alcohol dependence and contributing to the development of new treatment strategies. "
I'd also ask this... do you honestly think smoking cigarettes does that to my synapses, neural circuitry, brain functions, physiology? Sorry, it doesn't. Ask the AMA.
There are/were reasons why alcoholism is classified a disease of the brain, and it's certainly not because the entire medical profession was manipulated into making that distinction begrudgingly. It's because year after year the continuing research consistently backed up the original hypothesis, enough to warrant such attention. It's not a "concept", it's a theory and a distinction quite obviously necessary to people who study illness. They have come to this conclusion absent any recovery affiliations at all. Go figure. So while we sit and pontificate over what we have decided it is or isn't, those folks have actually looked inside alcoholic brains and spent countless hours noticing differences that we can barely conceptualize, if at all.
Having said that, Dan, IMO alcoholism is an abnormal condition, in some cases independent of an individual's choices and will. Disease? I don't like the term. Dis-ease I can live with. Those in your group dwelling on such things seem to be lacking attention to the solution, so a good move would be to simply stop listening when the subject comes up. Either that or remind them of the solution. Thing is, what medical research has and will evolve enough to discover and classify regarding our "affliction" is utterly unimportant to the methods we already have to stay sober, AA being one of those methods.
I have to apologize because I honestly don't want to derail or sidetrack Dan's thread, but really it's not helpful to let the broad stroked statements I've detailed here go unchecked. Plenty of new and struggling alcoholics pop in to threads like this for information on this subject matter. Always good for folks to get both sides of this coin.
Re:AA and disease.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the topic. This topic has been generating controversy for a long time now. It's been a hot topic of debate ever since I began the recovery process over 10+ years ago. It will continue on long after I'm gone, I presume. So what shall I do? I guess what you’re really asking is this: Can I subscribe to my theory of alcoholism and still attend "AA". Why not?
So, you don't like the word disease; Okay, who does? It casts an ugly shadow in the light of who we really are. When we discover the horrible truth behind our alcoholism, we feel aghast. We feel disgusted with the image of our alcoholic selves, plain and simple. So, again, what do we do?
I try not to get too caught up with the image of an alcoholic in the shadow of the disease concept anymore. I try to focus on solutions and not so much on labels. I base my success over the years on the principles of recovery and not so much on certain theories; like, a disease model, a spiritual malady, or an allergy of the body, etc. The first step principle states and I'm quoting here:” We shall not find any enduring strength until we first admit complete defeat”. I know, just opened up another can of worms, didn't I? Let that be for a second and focus again on the principle. I needed to make an honest admission about my drinking, first and foremost. That got the ball rolling for me, basically. How I proceed from there is totally up to me. Whether the problem is diseased based or not is really inconsequential. The only way I can adjust to life after the fact is to focus on a solution. I've been sober for some time now because of that admission, and have lived comfortably as a result.
If you are still bothered by the concept of drinking being somewhat of a disease, than cater your recovery routine more to your liking. Whatever you do, don't eliminate "AA" altogether. All those vital nutrients can only benefit you long term. If you have trouble admitting you’re an alcoholic to a group of recovering alcoholics, than ask yourself this one question: Who would you rather be? An alcoholic in recovery or one beyond recovery. Remember, we might of had different bottoms, but the beatings were all the same. Calling ourselves alcoholics is not a sign of weakness, not by any stretch of the imagination; it's how we find strength. Don't be bothered by the logistics anymore, stay recovered instead...and stay warm.
~God bless~
Thanks for the topic. This topic has been generating controversy for a long time now. It's been a hot topic of debate ever since I began the recovery process over 10+ years ago. It will continue on long after I'm gone, I presume. So what shall I do? I guess what you’re really asking is this: Can I subscribe to my theory of alcoholism and still attend "AA". Why not?
So, you don't like the word disease; Okay, who does? It casts an ugly shadow in the light of who we really are. When we discover the horrible truth behind our alcoholism, we feel aghast. We feel disgusted with the image of our alcoholic selves, plain and simple. So, again, what do we do?
I try not to get too caught up with the image of an alcoholic in the shadow of the disease concept anymore. I try to focus on solutions and not so much on labels. I base my success over the years on the principles of recovery and not so much on certain theories; like, a disease model, a spiritual malady, or an allergy of the body, etc. The first step principle states and I'm quoting here:” We shall not find any enduring strength until we first admit complete defeat”. I know, just opened up another can of worms, didn't I? Let that be for a second and focus again on the principle. I needed to make an honest admission about my drinking, first and foremost. That got the ball rolling for me, basically. How I proceed from there is totally up to me. Whether the problem is diseased based or not is really inconsequential. The only way I can adjust to life after the fact is to focus on a solution. I've been sober for some time now because of that admission, and have lived comfortably as a result.
If you are still bothered by the concept of drinking being somewhat of a disease, than cater your recovery routine more to your liking. Whatever you do, don't eliminate "AA" altogether. All those vital nutrients can only benefit you long term. If you have trouble admitting you’re an alcoholic to a group of recovering alcoholics, than ask yourself this one question: Who would you rather be? An alcoholic in recovery or one beyond recovery. Remember, we might of had different bottoms, but the beatings were all the same. Calling ourselves alcoholics is not a sign of weakness, not by any stretch of the imagination; it's how we find strength. Don't be bothered by the logistics anymore, stay recovered instead...and stay warm.
~God bless~
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 108
I'd also ask this... do you honestly think smoking cigarettes does that to my synapses, neural circuitry, brain functions, physiology? Sorry, it doesn't. Ask the AMA.
There are/were reasons why alcoholism is classified a disease of the brain, and it's certainly not because the entire medical profession was manipulated into making that distinction begrudgingly. It's because year after year the continuing research consistently backed up the original hypothesis, enough to warrant such attention. It's not a "concept", it's a theory and a distinction quite obviously necessary to people who study illness. They have come to this conclusion absent any recovery affiliations at all. Go figure. So while we sit and pontificate over what we have decided it is or isn't, those folks have actually looked inside alcoholic brains and spent countless hours noticing differences that we can barely conceptualize, if at all.
Indeed, I'm skeptical that scientists can even agree on what they mean by calling alcoholism or alcohol dependence a "disease." In the mean time, it's hard to see how we could ever collect scientific data that would undermine the personal responsibility and freedom of choice we have in our decisions whether or not to drink alcohol. Certainly it can show us how our choices may be influenced by environmental factors. But this is quite common, and no threat to personal responsibility or freedom of choice. For instance advertising produces a strong influence on our buying decisions, yet we can hardly be said not to freely choose, say, Nike over New Balance, even after exposure to advertisements.
The scientific evidence can and does tell us some of what goes on in our brains. But this is insufficient for all the social baggage that comes with the disease concept in everyday parlance.
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
'You are correct that, in the end, scientific evidence trumps whatever private opinions we happen to hold.'
All we can do then at that point is to complain about the social baggage that comes from that.
'this is quite common, and no threat to personal responsibility or freedom of choice. For instance advertising produces a strong influence on our buying decisions, yet we can hardly be said not to freely choose, say, Nike over New Balance, even after exposure to advertisements.'
Wouldn't it be cool if alcoholism wasn't a constant through human history and instead began with all those jazzy Budweiser commercials? Maybe it was those Old World pub signs. I guess whenever my ancestors saw a beat up old plaque of a severed boar's head or a rooster crowing they'd choose powerfully to get sloshed.
'it is in our power to choose not to chronically expose ourselves to alcohol, then it is in our power to prevent and/or reverse the effects described.'
Ok, that's it then guys. Decide not to drink. We can all go home now, and just leave this on the home page of SR.
Why did we have to wait many thousands of years for someone to come up with this new and amazing insight?
All we can do then at that point is to complain about the social baggage that comes from that.
'this is quite common, and no threat to personal responsibility or freedom of choice. For instance advertising produces a strong influence on our buying decisions, yet we can hardly be said not to freely choose, say, Nike over New Balance, even after exposure to advertisements.'
Wouldn't it be cool if alcoholism wasn't a constant through human history and instead began with all those jazzy Budweiser commercials? Maybe it was those Old World pub signs. I guess whenever my ancestors saw a beat up old plaque of a severed boar's head or a rooster crowing they'd choose powerfully to get sloshed.
'it is in our power to choose not to chronically expose ourselves to alcohol, then it is in our power to prevent and/or reverse the effects described.'
Ok, that's it then guys. Decide not to drink. We can all go home now, and just leave this on the home page of SR.
Why did we have to wait many thousands of years for someone to come up with this new and amazing insight?
I also do not believe it is a disease. Drinking for me was and is a choice that I make of my own free will.
Is smoking considered a disease?
I think AA is wonderful as it has helped so many, but it is not for me and never will be.
My reasoning is I am my higher power and it is my choice to pick up a drink knowing that slowly but surely I will be back to where I started - daily drinking, drinking at home because I feel a bit down.
I also don't like the idea that I need to attend meetings and hear about other people's struggles. i feel that locks me in a certain mentality.
I am fully aware of what happens when I drink and I don't need to tell anyone about all the stupid things I have done - why? I know myself? Unburdening it is not going to make those things go away, it is not going to make me learn any more about myself.
That was my past, not my future and I have it in me (36 days so far) to keep myself on my path to sobriety.
If AA works for someone, then that is fantastic, but it is not the only way - plenty of people have successfully quit using didffent methods and will always continue to do so.
Just my take on it though
Is smoking considered a disease?
I think AA is wonderful as it has helped so many, but it is not for me and never will be.
My reasoning is I am my higher power and it is my choice to pick up a drink knowing that slowly but surely I will be back to where I started - daily drinking, drinking at home because I feel a bit down.
I also don't like the idea that I need to attend meetings and hear about other people's struggles. i feel that locks me in a certain mentality.
I am fully aware of what happens when I drink and I don't need to tell anyone about all the stupid things I have done - why? I know myself? Unburdening it is not going to make those things go away, it is not going to make me learn any more about myself.
That was my past, not my future and I have it in me (36 days so far) to keep myself on my path to sobriety.
If AA works for someone, then that is fantastic, but it is not the only way - plenty of people have successfully quit using didffent methods and will always continue to do so.
Just my take on it though
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