secular wonder and awe
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK 
Lotta links there, and breaking any one of them could tank the whole interpretation, so we're on much shakier ground than if we were all to stand in a room surrounding a rock and try to agree if there is, in fact, a rock in the middle of the room.
But at the same time the physicist Richard Feynman said that "no one understands quantum mechanics". And this is because of the very strange phenomena that things seem to exist differently when they are being observed to when they are not being observed: they exist as probability waves when not being observed which then "collapse" into particles when measured.
So particles are real but only as phenomena observed by consciousness. They exist as waves when not being observed. So the world in itself, as waves, is different from the world as it appears to us, as particles. We can never really know what these waves are because their waveform collapses into particles when we try to observe them and this forms part of the 'veiled reality' quoted above.
This goes back to the earlier discussion about colour. The sky is not blue when it is not being observed because the colour only arises when the sky light enters our eyes and is interpreted by the brain. So in the quantum world, probability waves, whatever exactly they are, generate particles only when they are observed by experimental apparatus. Both colour and particles exist only when observed by consciousness - they exist as waves, light waves or probability waves, when not observed.
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Physics, which is described in the language of math. Quantum mechanics makes innumerable predictions, and as far as we've ever been able to tell from experiments, they're all correct, though Feynman was right, no one really understands it - which means, it's not remotely intuitive - even if they can use it to calculate things and make predictions. We do know it's incomplete, and there must be some deeper theory that reduces to quantum mechanics or general relativity in the appropriate limits, but we really have no idea what that looks like. Need another Einstein to come along and figure it out for us, but with that we'll finally understand space and time, singularities, and maybe even the big bang. Meanwhile, since we're sober, we have the brain capacity to at least ponder this stuff. 
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Interesting chat. I think it has relevance for addiction because quantum mechanics makes consciousness a basic, rather than an unexpected, feature of ultimate that has a causal effect on the physical world. This is unlike classical physics which takes a mechanistic, clockwork view of the world. It also establishes probability as more fundamental than determinism and this supports, or least does not rule out, a view of the world which is open to creative human possibilities. It's relevance for me is that I relate more to recovery models such as TFM and mindfulness or CBT based approaches that have free-will and mental autonomy as core concepts.
ours de petit cerveau
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Originally Posted by AlericB
Interesting chat. I think it has relevance for addiction because quantum mechanics makes consciousness a basic, rather than an unexpected, feature of ultimate that has a causal effect on the physical world. This is unlike classical physics which takes a mechanistic, clockwork view of the world. It also establishes probability as more fundamental than determinism and this supports, or least does not rule out, a view of the world which is open to creative human possibilities.
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Well, that’s all very interesting. But what is the intersection or relevance with “Secular Exploration of Different Recovery Methods”?
Please excuse me if I’m experiencing an intellectual dumb moment: because I’m open to enlightenment.
Please excuse me if I’m experiencing an intellectual dumb moment: because I’m open to enlightenment.
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There's not much relevance I guess but the conversation did touch on a comparison between classical
/Newtonian physics, which sees everything as being composed only of matter and therefore has no space for human consciousness, and modern physics which is forced to take consciousness into account in it's explanation of the world. The relevance for recovery is that quantum mechanics is compatible with a world-view which incorporates free-will and mental autonomy and so offers some kind of validation of methods that focus on these human capacities, whereas classical physics eradicates such a view. That's reassuring to me anyway even if not much!
/Newtonian physics, which sees everything as being composed only of matter and therefore has no space for human consciousness, and modern physics which is forced to take consciousness into account in it's explanation of the world. The relevance for recovery is that quantum mechanics is compatible with a world-view which incorporates free-will and mental autonomy and so offers some kind of validation of methods that focus on these human capacities, whereas classical physics eradicates such a view. That's reassuring to me anyway even if not much!
waking down
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Originally Posted by Tatsy
Well, that’s all very interesting. But what is the intersection or relevance with “Secular Exploration of Different Recovery Methods”?
Please excuse me if I’m experiencing an intellectual dumb moment: because I’m open to enlightenment.
Please excuse me if I’m experiencing an intellectual dumb moment: because I’m open to enlightenment.
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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I think it's all quite relevant to addiction recovery, secular or otherwise. Look what you can begin to comprehend, or at least philosophize about, when you don't have your nose in a glass of alcohol! 
Gets back to the first post in the thread, really.
Gets back to the first post in the thread, really.
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Hi Zero, doesn’t sound ‘wacky’ at all! Coincidentally, after I recovered from alcohol addiction, I renewed my previous interest in the night time sky and the nocturnal animal activity.
After posting here last night, I climbed up my hill (as usual on a clear, dry night) and studied the constellations and asterisms, listened to the different types of owls calling, watched bats and waited for the badgers to emerge. Whilst contemplating the awesomeness of the night time sky on a clear night, the speed at which our planet travels, yet I feel motionless; the smallness of our planet in the galaxy; the massive diversity of species; the beauty and complexity of nature’s life cycles; animals and insects inborne drive to survive. I finished with anticipation of new elephant hawk moths caterpillars hatching on and eating their favourite plants which I tend, and their metamorphosis, which is truly magical. I too revelled in the glory of our planet, spiralling through the universe.
And I felt at peace and full of a happiness that I’m alive and no longer polluting my body and impeding my senses: the senses that create my experience of this world last night. Whilst drinking, I’d miss that experience, trading it for being senseless, passed out on the sofa, or floor.
After posting here last night, I climbed up my hill (as usual on a clear, dry night) and studied the constellations and asterisms, listened to the different types of owls calling, watched bats and waited for the badgers to emerge. Whilst contemplating the awesomeness of the night time sky on a clear night, the speed at which our planet travels, yet I feel motionless; the smallness of our planet in the galaxy; the massive diversity of species; the beauty and complexity of nature’s life cycles; animals and insects inborne drive to survive. I finished with anticipation of new elephant hawk moths caterpillars hatching on and eating their favourite plants which I tend, and their metamorphosis, which is truly magical. I too revelled in the glory of our planet, spiralling through the universe.
And I felt at peace and full of a happiness that I’m alive and no longer polluting my body and impeding my senses: the senses that create my experience of this world last night. Whilst drinking, I’d miss that experience, trading it for being senseless, passed out on the sofa, or floor.
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK
Look what you can begin to comprehend, or at least philosophize about, when you don't have your nose in a glass of alcohol! Gets back to the first post in the thread, really.
Gets back to the first post in the thread, really.Member
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Originally Posted by Tatsy
Absolutely. I overlooked the thread title when I posted, and concentrated on the forum heading.......whoops ��.
ours de petit cerveau
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Originally Posted by AlericB
I wondered if perhaps you found the talk about electrons too negative? (pun alert)
neutron: "how much is a coffee please?"
barista: "for you, no charge"
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