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Old 04-18-2018, 12:59 PM   #41 (permalink)
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AlericB "Me too. I'm not certain about anything! "

You sure about that ?
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Old 04-18-2018, 02:59 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Lotta links there, and breaking any one of them could tank the whole interpretation, so we're on much shakier ground than if we were all to stand in a room surrounding a rock and try to agree if there is, in fact, a rock in the middle of the room.
I'm not sure that all these links mean that the theory is shaky. Quantum mechanics is the most precisely tested theory ever produced and it's the basis for most of our computing and information technologies.

But at the same time the physicist Richard Feynman said that "no one understands quantum mechanics". And this is because of the very strange phenomena that things seem to exist differently when they are being observed to when they are not being observed: they exist as probability waves when not being observed which then "collapse" into particles when measured.

So particles are real but only as phenomena observed by consciousness. They exist as waves when not being observed. So the world in itself, as waves, is different from the world as it appears to us, as particles. We can never really know what these waves are because their waveform collapses into particles when we try to observe them and this forms part of the 'veiled reality' quoted above.

This goes back to the earlier discussion about colour. The sky is not blue when it is not being observed because the colour only arises when the sky light enters our eyes and is interpreted by the brain. So in the quantum world, probability waves, whatever exactly they are, generate particles only when they are observed by experimental apparatus. Both colour and particles exist only when observed by consciousness - they exist as waves, light waves or probability waves, when not observed.
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:26 PM   #43 (permalink)
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This may sound really ignorant, but how do we know phenomena are waves when not being observed if we're not observing them? Mathematical theory?
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:40 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Physics, which is described in the language of math. Quantum mechanics makes innumerable predictions, and as far as we've ever been able to tell from experiments, they're all correct, though Feynman was right, no one really understands it - which means, it's not remotely intuitive - even if they can use it to calculate things and make predictions. We do know it's incomplete, and there must be some deeper theory that reduces to quantum mechanics or general relativity in the appropriate limits, but we really have no idea what that looks like. Need another Einstein to come along and figure it out for us, but with that we'll finally understand space and time, singularities, and maybe even the big bang. Meanwhile, since we're sober, we have the brain capacity to at least ponder this stuff.
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Old 04-19-2018, 01:36 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Interesting chat. I think it has relevance for addiction because quantum mechanics makes consciousness a basic, rather than an unexpected, feature of ultimate that has a causal effect on the physical world. This is unlike classical physics which takes a mechanistic, clockwork view of the world. It also establishes probability as more fundamental than determinism and this supports, or least does not rule out, a view of the world which is open to creative human possibilities. It's relevance for me is that I relate more to recovery models such as TFM and mindfulness or CBT based approaches that have free-will and mental autonomy as core concepts.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:12 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Neal Stephenson's ( I'm a big fan) latest novel The Rise and Fall of D.O.D.O. has some fun with quantum mechanics and such, reading it currently
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Old 04-19-2018, 09:22 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Interesting chat. I think it has relevance for addiction because quantum mechanics makes consciousness a basic, rather than an unexpected, feature of ultimate that has a causal effect on the physical world. This is unlike classical physics which takes a mechanistic, clockwork view of the world. It also establishes probability as more fundamental than determinism and this supports, or least does not rule out, a view of the world which is open to creative human possibilities.
I hope you're not conflating quantum behaviour at the level of atomic particles with the human condition <cough>Deepak Chopra<cough>. Newtonian physics works pretty well with real-world aggregate behaviours until you get to the cosmological scale.
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Old 04-19-2018, 10:13 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Well, that’s all very interesting. But what is the intersection or relevance with “Secular Exploration of Different Recovery Methods”?

Please excuse me if I’m experiencing an intellectual dumb moment: because I’m open to enlightenment.
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Old 04-19-2018, 10:39 AM   #49 (permalink)
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There's not much relevance I guess but the conversation did touch on a comparison between classical
/Newtonian physics, which sees everything as being composed only of matter and therefore has no space for human consciousness, and modern physics which is forced to take consciousness into account in it's explanation of the world. The relevance for recovery is that quantum mechanics is compatible with a world-view which incorporates free-will and mental autonomy and so offers some kind of validation of methods that focus on these human capacities, whereas classical physics eradicates such a view. That's reassuring to me anyway even if not much!
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:25 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Well, that’s all very interesting. But what is the intersection or relevance with “Secular Exploration of Different Recovery Methods”?

Please excuse me if I’m experiencing an intellectual dumb moment: because I’m open to enlightenment.
I think it's relevant in that a sense of wonder and awe links with gratitude and appreciation of the seeming magical qualities of life on this here planet, and that gratitude and curiosity to me is very much a relapse prevention or "recovery" method. In other words, the natural world is my "god," so attention to the natural world is mindfulness of god, and mindfulness of the natural world is then a sort of secular form of prayer. When we explore the heady subjects of quantum physics, for example, we explore the edges of the Great Unknown. May sound wacky, but I kind of see it that way. It's like secular grace. I'm imbued with the glory of the Universe. I don't need to get high.
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:35 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I think it's all quite relevant to addiction recovery, secular or otherwise. Look what you can begin to comprehend, or at least philosophize about, when you don't have your nose in a glass of alcohol! Gets back to the first post in the thread, really.
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Old 04-20-2018, 05:02 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Hi Zero, doesn’t sound ‘wacky’ at all! Coincidentally, after I recovered from alcohol addiction, I renewed my previous interest in the night time sky and the nocturnal animal activity.

After posting here last night, I climbed up my hill (as usual on a clear, dry night) and studied the constellations and asterisms, listened to the different types of owls calling, watched bats and waited for the badgers to emerge. Whilst contemplating the awesomeness of the night time sky on a clear night, the speed at which our planet travels, yet I feel motionless; the smallness of our planet in the galaxy; the massive diversity of species; the beauty and complexity of nature’s life cycles; animals and insects inborne drive to survive. I finished with anticipation of new elephant hawk moths caterpillars hatching on and eating their favourite plants which I tend, and their metamorphosis, which is truly magical. I too revelled in the glory of our planet, spiralling through the universe.

And I felt at peace and full of a happiness that I’m alive and no longer polluting my body and impeding my senses: the senses that create my experience of this world last night. Whilst drinking, I’d miss that experience, trading it for being senseless, passed out on the sofa, or floor.
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Old 04-20-2018, 05:45 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Look what you can begin to comprehend, or at least philosophize about, when you don't have your nose in a glass of alcohol! Gets back to the first post in the thread, really.
Absolutely. I overlooked the thread title when I posted, and concentrated on the forum heading.......whoops 🙃.
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Old 04-21-2018, 02:23 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Absolutely. I overlooked the thread title when I posted, and concentrated on the forum heading.......whoops ��.
I wondered if perhaps you found the talk about electrons too negative? (pun alert)
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Old 04-21-2018, 03:09 AM   #55 (permalink)
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I wondered if perhaps you found the talk about electrons too negative? (pun alert)

This is the worst dad joke ever! Where is the emoji of the cane pulling the guy off stage?
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Old 04-21-2018, 03:11 AM   #56 (permalink)
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This is the worst dad joke ever! Where is the emoji of the cane pulling the guy off stage?
Lol. Dads don't do emojis. We do exclamation marks instead!
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Old 04-21-2018, 05:32 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I wondered if perhaps you found the talk about electrons too negative? (pun alert)
a neutron goes into a coffee shop
neutron: "how much is a coffee please?"
barista: "for you, no charge"
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Old 04-21-2018, 07:10 AM   #58 (permalink)
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How do you leave an alcoholic in suspense?


I'll tell you tomorrow.....
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:08 AM   #59 (permalink)
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How do you leave an alcoholic in suspense?

I'll tell you tomorrow.....
I'm still waiting - how?

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Old 04-24-2018, 06:48 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Why did God invent whiskey?

(I know, it's a secular forum, but...)
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