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Old 03-13-2018, 01:54 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I’ve just started reading my downloaded book, nearly 9 hours estimate: ............more will be revealed.
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Old 03-13-2018, 01:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Wow, are you a speed reader BJ? That's exactly what it's saying!

More of a skim reader lol
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Old 03-13-2018, 02:03 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Iíve just started reading my downloaded book, nearly 9 hours estimate: ............more will be revealed.
The price of being open-minded Tatsy. Otherwise you could do it in a couple of minutes, easy!
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:34 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Just going back to the PDP, it sounds odd to say that we drink in the pursuit of happiness knowing that from past experience the consequences are likely to be anything but. What really motivated me when I used to carry on drinking knowing that I was making my partner unhappy or that I wouldn't be really be fit for work the following day?

I guess the inconvenient truth is that when I was deciding whether to have another drink or not I did not always, or even usually, make the rational choice. Most of the time I wanted the short-term benefits of relaxation or stress-relief more than I wanted the long-term benefits of a healthier and more fulfilling life and I choose accordingly. Occasionally I may have made the right choice - I never drove over the limit for example - and so I believe I always had the power to choose. I just usually chose not to use it.
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:09 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Thought I'd share this article written by someone who describes how the Freedom Model and especially the PDP helped him overcome his drug and drink problem and how it benefitted his life generally. It's a fabulous piece and I think really shows just how well the model matches people's needs.

The link: https://www.daimanuel.com/2016/08/30...freedom-model/
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:39 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Craving

The book makes an interesting point about cravings which is that cravin isn't something that happens to you and you passively experience them, but rather you actively crave because it's something that you choose to do.

It says that the issue is distorted by the language we use. If we say "I want a drink" it's easy to see that that's a choice we're making whereas if we say "I crave a drink" it suggests that there is some force out there called a craving that has somehow 'got' us and that we need to resist in some way.

This way of looking at it is seeing the craving as an activity that we choose to do rather than a thing or a force. If you think "I want a drink" then you'll feel a craving and if you think "I need a drink right now" you'll experience a stronger craving.

If says that you can get rid of craving by changing your perception of drinking and seeing that you heavy way you used to do is no longer something that you wish to continue. If you do that then you won't experience craving because you simply won't be having thoughts like "I really need a drink right now" again.

How does the model say that you can change your perception of drinking so that you don't get anymore thoughts like ≥hat you need to drink right now? It's by no longer believing in the myth of powerful cravings but knowing that you're free to challenge that thought by asking yourself "Do I really want to drink right now?"

So, it says that craving is just thoughts like "I'd like a drink" or "I need a drink" and you're free to think differently. It isn't something that just happens to you, it's something you actively do.
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:11 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Apologies for the appalling typos above. No excuses!
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Old 03-17-2018, 09:41 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Heavy use?
It really seems from your reporting , perhaps it is just your reporting of the model and not specifically the model itself, it just seems that continued use isn’t an issue, that part and parcel of the model is its ambivalence toward use.

Does the model speak at all to the experience of intoxication? Why it is appealing , or does it just take for granted that it is of course appealing , that the sensation is pleasurable?
I understand being happy about being rid of the consequences of over or heavy use, but I haven’t yet heard an explanation, from this model, about how the absence of the pleasure of intoxication is reconciled.
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:36 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Heavy use?
It really seems from your reporting , perhaps it is just your reporting of the model and not specifically the model itself, it just seems that continued use isn’t an issue, that part and parcel of the model is its ambivalence toward use.
It isn't ambivalent towards use. It's an educational tool not a prescriptive program and tries to help people make informed choices about their own substance use habits. It says that you should do whatever offers you the greatest level of happiness and helps you to figure out what that is. Without getting into the statistics, most people who have gone on their retreat and learnt the model decide that they want to quit and are long-term successful. Others decide that they want to moderate, whether successfully or not I don't know - the statistics do not include this category in the published success rate quoted above - and unsurprisingly some decide to continue with their heavy substance use.

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Heavy use?
Does the model speak at all to the experience of intoxication? Why it is appealing , or does it just take for granted that it is of course appealing , that the sensation is pleasurable?
I assume it addresses this because Chapter 20 is entitled "Pleasure"! I haven't got that far yet so I can't answer your question but the in the little I have read it does say that alcohol does not contain pleasure in the way an apple contains nutrients. Pleasure isn't a quality that exists within things - it's more subjective than that. That seems right - I didn't find that drinking gave me "pleasure" in any meaningful sense around the time I decided to quit.
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:21 AM   #30 (permalink)
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They do explicitly state that their model has no proscription on individual use, yes?
That is obviously rhetorical, in that that subject has been covered in this and related threads. This model explicitly states that addiction is nonexistent and therefore is in no way a method for cessation of a non entity.
My question is why the mods allow its discussion and consequent promotion on a site intended to promote abstinence.
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:26 AM   #31 (permalink)
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They do explicitly state that their model has no proscription on individual use, yes?
That is obviously rhetorical, in that that subject has been covered in this and related threads. This model explicitly states that addiction is nonexistent and therefore is in no way a method for cessation of a non entity.
My question is why the mods allow its discussion and consequent promotion on a site intended to promote abstinence.
It doesn't say addiction is non-existent - all three authors suffered from addiction for many years and have helped many overcome it, including myself. It says it is a mindset created by beliefs about addiction. I can certainly relate to that view.

I suggest it would be more proper to take up your issue with a PM to the mods. rather than publicly on this thread.
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:48 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I did report post #25 as a rules violation, or at least what I take to be one, ie a link to an outside commercial site/ recovery blog, but it’s still there, so public seems more expedient
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:53 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I did report post #25 as a rules violation, or at least what I take to be one, ie a link to an outside commercial site/ recovery blog, but it’s still there, so public seems more expedient
I am not going to get into a public debate with you on this.

This thread is intended for a discussion about the Freedom Model for Addictions so can we stay on-topic please.
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:34 PM   #34 (permalink)
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It doesn't say addiction is non-existent - all three authors suffered from addiction for many years and have helped many overcome it, including myself. It says it is a mindset created by beliefs about addiction. I can certainly relate to that view.

I suggest it would be more proper to take up your issue with a PM to the mods. rather than publicly on this thread.
As I noted before , one of the authorsí blogs states that he was able to overcome his unhappy abstinence and currently considers himself to be a happy moderate level user.
I assume he believes in his own ideas and would want them promoted virtuously. I further believe he holds himself up as an example of success by virtue of the model. So I assume all the authors consider his outcome as the optimal outcome , what other conclusion can I draw?
My AV loves this idea, what does yours say?
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:45 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Dwtbd, I’m presently part-way through reading the book, not the blogs. So far, there’s no endorsement of moderation. And so far, my AV hasn’t raised from its slumber and twittered. Because the book and cited material accord with my views, not ITs.

I do hope that this thread remains open, at least long enough that I finish the book, and report back. I stopped drinking with AVRT, but if there’s another method people can use, then I wish to explore it, so that perhaps I can recommend reading it. I say this with a vested interest, because I have a relative who, for discrete reasons, AVRT would not accord. If you want more details, please PM me.
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Old 03-17-2018, 04:05 PM   #36 (permalink)
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It was right on the line, dwtbd, so we left the link.
We did review the report.
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Old 03-18-2018, 02:35 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I'd just like to note that I would not personally recommend any model that promoted moderation. I have chosen abstinence for myself and the Freedom Model has helped me see this choice as something I wanted to do rather than as something I had to do and it has helped me feel much happier and freer in my abstinence.

The model most certainly does believe in addiction and it talks about the addict self-image, and how we acquire it and how we can get rid of it. It says that this self-image is dis-empowering because it's saying that you can't change and leaves you with a perceived handicap that you have to manage for the rest of your life.

It's just my personal view of course, but that is true for everyone no matter what approach they take, but I think this model gives a better account than that of why we are addicted. It puts forward a plausible and emperically supported case that we drink or use problematically because we naturally do what we think will make us the most happy at the time (the PDP) and explains the reasons why we make this preference.

It helped me see that I was free to change the self-sddict belief I had about myself and which was making me unhappy, and to see that what was keeping me stuck was this belief that I was holding onto and that I was free to let go.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea but.... can't think of a tea analogy so I'll leave it at that
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Old 03-18-2018, 11:43 AM   #38 (permalink)
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The book makes an interesting point about cravings which is that cravin isn't something that happens to you and you passively experience them, but rather you actively crave because it's something that you choose to do.
To start with I want to make it clear that I did not read the book so I might be talking out of my behind here but it sounds that this book is aimed at heavy/problem drinkers rather than alcoholics.

I am very thankful to have an extremely quiet AV, I might have a thought/urge a couple of times a year tops. Quitting was fairly easy for me too and I did not experience many cravings.

That being said, I still have experienced true alcoholic "cravings".
Those were (at least for me) not just a thought but a physical experience when suddenly I could visualize myself pouring alcohol down my throat. During such a craving, I could smell it, taste it in my mouth and feel it go down my throat and heating up my oesephagus.

When those happened, I know I (well the AVRT folks would say the beast) just WANTED in an almost animalistic fashion. And no, I did not "choose to" do, when that happened it felt on me like a ton of bricks. What I chose to (in sobriety) is to take deep breathes and ride the wave until the urge passed.

I have not had very many of those in sobriety and they might have lasted 5mn tops but still, I have experienced them. It s not just about wanting vs "needing' or even obsessing, it's about experiencing something without actually doing it and it is sensually overpowering.

Darn, I am probably muddling it...it's tough to explain but I bet that many of you know what I am talking about. Like I said, thankfully my AV (thought) raises its head very rarely and it has been a very long time since I have experienced such a craving.

PS: not dissing the method or anyone, just contributing my personal experience to the discussion
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:12 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I wonder though if even the most intense feelings start off with a simple thought. Even now if I choose to look back on some incident in my past where I felt someone had slighted me, I can still feel anger as if it had just happened even though years may have passed, and sometimes I suspect the anger is stronger than what I actually felt at the time. I choose not to, but I imagine if I spent a whole day thinking about some insult from the past I'd be feeling really quite strong anger by the end of the day. I do relate to what you say though and I'm glad that you have such intense and unpleasant feelings only very rarely.
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:47 PM   #40 (permalink)
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wonder though if even the most intense feelings start off with a simple thought.
One common denominator is that it always got triggered by me being very stressed and feeling suddenly overwhelmed. Not so much "a" thought as a cyclone of thoughts and not being able to quiet my mind.
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