The Freedom Model for Addictions - 2

Old 03-27-2018, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
Steven

If PAWS is 'dry drunk' syndrome disguised in eloquent scientific nomenclature, then 'PDP' isn't much different. Seems like common sense and intuition more so than a 'principle,' however you want to dress it and whatever you want to call it.
PDP (positive drive principle) sounds like regular old self-help type stuff to me. All the discussions of it in the book are philosophical. I'm not sure how it would come off as scientific in any way near how the term "post acute withdrawal syndrome" does.
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Old 03-27-2018, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I could easily see that a part of me wanted abstinence and a part of me wanted to drink.
I used to think this about myself too but when I looked at it in TFM terms of the benefits of benefits I realised that I don't want abstinence per se but rather the benefits that abstinence brings, such as peace and freedom from worry.

As you said, ambivalence means wanting two completely opposite things. There is no part of me that does not want these benefits and so there is no ambivalence left to deal with.
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:53 PM
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i find general strong statements such as "since we control our own minds...."so problematic. and don't know anyone, other than some folks here, who think they control their own minds.
this may not seem pertinentto the thread, but these kind of generalized assumptions are part ofthe basis of this model and that undermines the entire foundation the ret is based on.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:24 AM
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TFM does not say that we control all aspects of the mind. That is obviously untrue. We have no control of our dreams for example.

What I think it's saying is that we can decide the reasons for the sake of which we do an action. For example, I am abstinent now because I thought about it and decided it was something I wanted to do in order to have a healthier and happier life. So I took some action, I did something which was to give up drinking, in order to bring about some effect which I thought would be good.

That seems to me a very natural way of thinking and I believe we think something like this in all other areas of our lives and so it is a very reasonable "generalised assumption" to make.

If we can't think in some way like this it would mean that we have no control of our minds at all, that is, no free will. This may be true but would also be a generalised assumption - a much less plausible one IMO but let's not go there!
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by StevenSlate View Post
... I want to get across the points that you are in control of yourself already, and if you become convinced that a change is your happier option, you will easily carry it out. I say it's easy, because it's just not making choices once you don't believe those things will make you happier - not having the fifth drink, or the first drink, or the cocaine, or whatever. ...
I appreciate your italicized emphasis on “not making choices” above. (I underlined and bolded it since your whole quote is automatically italicized by the SR software).

When some of your attendees finally make that final choice to begin “just not making choices” anymore, and pledge to stick with, what in some cases is, permanent abstinence, have you ever noticed from any of them a sort of cathartic positive emotional response to their commitment to abstinence, like, “Wow! Now I can really see and feel a future free from problems caused by drinking now that I won’t even be entertaining the possibility of choosing to go back to drinking. Yes, I can really feel it. It is OVER, DONE, FINIS, KAPUT”?

Do you ever go into any more detail with them about the permanence (or, depending upon TFM, possibly non-permanence) of freely and finally deciding to remove future choices as an option?
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Old 03-29-2018, 01:10 AM
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I think the hardest part of being addicted is living in that place where you know you need to quit, but you keep doing it anyway. I lived that for a long time, trying to quit and having that inner turmoil, until I would break and do it again. I definitely felt like I was of two minds, that's why AVRT appealed to me, as soon as I read about the AV, I could relate and what I had been going through made sense. In TFM, how do you "make it stick"? AA does it one day at a time, and with RR we make a BP and learn to recognize that part of our thinking. I understand what you are doing in helping people get to the point of being ready to make a decision and a change, I think getting to that point is the hardest part. I also think you all do a really good job of blowing apart a lot of the misinformation and belief systems that hold people back, I just don't understand what keeps people from changing their minds back, especially if moderation is kept as an option. I agree that neuroplasticity is not a sign of disease, but of a healthy normal brain, doing what it's supposed to do, but nonetheless substance use does create these neural pathways that take time to change while new behaviours and thought patterns emerge. What is TFM's line of defense against the old thinking and behaviours? I agree that quitting is as simple as making a decision and not letting anything talk you out of it, especially yourself. When people who use TFM method quit, is it a firm commitment for life?
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Old 03-29-2018, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
When some of your attendees finally make that final choice to begin “just not making choices” anymore, and pledge to stick with, what in some cases is, permanent abstinence, have you ever noticed from any of them a sort of cathartic positive emotional response to their commitment to abstinence, like, “Wow! Now I can really see and feel a future free from problems caused by drinking now that I won’t even be entertaining the possibility of choosing to go back to drinking. Yes, I can really feel it. It is OVER, DONE, FINIS, KAPUT”?

Do you ever go into any more detail with them about the permanence (or, depending upon TFM, possibly non-permanence) of freely and finally deciding to remove future choices as an option?
Not necessarily in all those terms, but yes. We do see such excitement when people realize they don't ever have to make such choices again. That is what I experienced too.
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Old 03-29-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BillieJean1 View Post
I think the hardest part of being addicted is living in that place where you know you need to quit, but you keep doing it anyway. I lived that for a long time, trying to quit and having that inner turmoil, until I would break and do it again. I definitely felt like I was of two minds, that's why AVRT appealed to me, as soon as I read about the AV, I could relate and what I had been going through made sense. In TFM, how do you "make it stick"? AA does it one day at a time, and with RR we make a BP and learn to recognize that part of our thinking. I understand what you are doing in helping people get to the point of being ready to make a decision and a change, I think getting to that point is the hardest part. I also think you all do a really good job of blowing apart a lot of the misinformation and belief systems that hold people back, I just don't understand what keeps people from changing their minds back, especially if moderation is kept as an option. I agree that neuroplasticity is not a sign of disease, but of a healthy normal brain, doing what it's supposed to do, but nonetheless substance use does create these neural pathways that take time to change while new behaviours and thought patterns emerge. What is TFM's line of defense against the old thinking and behaviours? I agree that quitting is as simple as making a decision and not letting anything talk you out of it, especially yourself. When people who use TFM method quit, is it a firm commitment for life?
The first part is to learn and then know that you can choose to never be an "addict/alcoholic" ever again, because it is an identity or mindset. We suggest they choose to never be an addict/alcoholic again regardless of whether they choose to use substances. In line with making choices based on benefits, we discuss the benefits of identifying as an addict (which are mainly that you get lots of excuses for your behavior, and lowered expectations from others). And we discuss the benefits of not identifying as an addict - that you regain your sense of control over yourself and stop fighting a bogeyman.

You make it stick by learning from your decisions. Reframe "cravings" as something you do rather than something that happens to you, so that if that's what you're doing, you know you can dispute the thinking that is leading to a desire to use, and think about the benefits of a different choice. Part of disputing is disconnecting problems as a "cause" of substance use, and know that substances don't solve those problems, nor do they necessarily give comfort from those problems. Using substances is at best a distraction from those problems, no different than any other non-substance based distraction.

I used the term make it stick to honor your question, but we're not assuming that any particular substance use outcome should be made to stick for anyone other than the outcomes they want most. So we give them information and ideas they can use to assess their options, and the only thing we focus on "making stick" is feeling free and in control of your own decisions. They leave with the knowledge to make abstinence or moderation stick, if that is what they see as their best option. If it doesn't stick, they obviously don't see it that way. If they have a conflict of wants going on, they have the tools to resolve that and tip the scales.
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:30 AM
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The idea that we control our own minds and that our thoughts/beliefs is implicit in almost every non-medication-based approach to substance use problems.

Why do I have to admit/accept that I'm powerless in order to recover from addiction? It suggests first that the belief in powerlessness will affect my future behavior. Second, it suggests that the belief can't be forced upon me, but that somehow I have to see it as true in my own mind.

The same can be said for all the effort that goes into persuading people of the veracity of the disease model of addiction, all the begging of people to believe it. It implies that the individual has to expend some effort to try to see the truth of this model, and that in finally believing it they will facilitate some change in themselves.

I could go on and on about every recovery method - except for those that say "just take this pill and let it do the work." All are trying to appeal to the mind of the individual, to persuade, to say "this is a good and useful idea and if you choose to investigate and believe it, make it a part of your thinking, you can get over your problems." This holds true for TFM too, obviously.

If just exposing people to the ideas could in some way force people to accept them (control their minds), then we wouldn't see so much continued problematic substance use - such high relapse rates post-treatment. Or maybe we wouldn't even need that. Maybe Just Say No ads would do the trick, if we could control other people's minds and force them to accept ideas.
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by StevenSlate View Post
Not necessarily in all those terms, but yes. We do see such excitement when people realize they don't ever have to make such choices again. That is what I experienced too.
You mention the possible happy outcome of choosing “I will never drink a 5th drink again.” (I’m guessing that means a 4 drink per day maximum). Is that your own plan?

Do you leave the option open for yourself to ever reconsider about using heroin, say, once a month or once a year instead of never?
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by StevenSlate View Post
If just exposing people to the ideas could in some way force people to accept them (control their minds), then we wouldn't see so much continued problematic substance use - such high relapse rates post-treatment. Or maybe we wouldn't even need that. Maybe Just Say No ads would do the trick, if we could control other people's minds and force them to accept ideas.
Greenwood618 reminded me about this topic several days ago when he posted:

“Of course, anyone is free to create whatever notions they wish, and in fact, a central tenet of [a method I should probably not name on this thread] is something all mature adults recognize, and that is that no one particularly cares how, or even if, you quit drinking.”
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Old 03-29-2018, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
You mention the possible happy outcome of choosing “I will never drink a 5th drink again.” (I’m guessing that means a 4 drink per day maximum). Is that your own plan?

Do you leave the option open for yourself to ever reconsider about using heroin, say, once a month or once a year instead of never?
Well, that's not really exactly how I said it. People can set whatever rules and limits they want for themselves, but I didn't say that fifth drink bit in a rules-making context. I was just saying that you can know 4 is working good for you in that moment, and not choose a fifth drink because you don't believe it would really make you happier.

I can definitely think of cases where people would make a drink limit. As I mentioned earlier, I know of many people with drinking problems who can pinpoint the number of drinks it takes them to get to blackout, and who want to stop having blackouts. You might only drink once in a blue moon, but decide you'll never go past 4 drinks for that reason. The comment was not meant to suggest 4 drinks daily, and I know you didn't exactly say that, but I want to make sure I clarify. It was about the overall power you have to figure out what works for you and decide what to do, whether that be on a permanent or case by case basis.

I do not have a numbered drink limit in my own life - and I definitely don't drink 4 drinks per day, although there are definitely occasions where I will have 4 drinks. I drink on nights when I want to and when it fits into my life well, and don't drink on nights when I don't want to or when I might have a mild desire to drink but don't think it would fit into my overall life well. I generally do not drink during the day, because I don't find it to be an overall enjoyable experience, except for once in a while on vacation. What I'm getting at is that I don't overthink my own drinking at all. Like the average person, I do it when it works for me, to the degree that it works for me. But that's me. Whenever I focused on moderation and made a big plan of it with lots of rules back in the day when I had a substance use problem, I found that I'd become more obsessed with it, more troubled, and decide to go more off the rails. If you want a diary of my drinking, I had 0 on Monday, 2 on Tuesday, 1 last night, and have no idea whether I will choose to have any or not tonight, because it is a non-issue that I do not overthink. I have no plan other than to drink or not drink to the degree that these choices add to my life rather than detract from it. I stopped relying on intoxication as my key to life 16 years ago.

I can smell a snarky comment coming (not necessarily from you) that says the above paragraph makes it seem like I think about it a lot. If this is someone's reaction to that, please recognize that I'm in a position now where I was asked to answer about my personal "plan," and to answer to that question, I now have to sit here and detail think about how best to describe it. But I really don't think about it a lot. I really do just drink or don't drink as it works, because I have left behind every last vestige of the identity of a weak or powerless addict. I didn't use intoxicants for over 4 years before I decided to drink. For 2 of those years, I was in the library downloading and studying countless journal articles about addiction/alcoholism research as I tried to write my own book about the subject. All of that studying put the final nail in the coffin on the possibility of an addict identity for me. I don't approach alcohol with the idea of "moderating" in the way that "addicts and alcoholics" think of it. I understand that might be confusing, but I approach it as someone who has never "lost control" of my substance use and with the knowledge that loss-of-control over substance use is not a possibility. [this is not say I didn't use destructively in the past, or that I didn't ever feel out of control - but I realized eventually I was always in control]

Drinking to a degree that I regret is a possibility with me as much as it is with anyone who ever drinks whether or not they've ever had a problem with drinking. But I don't drink to a degree that I regret because I'm experienced and not a 21 year old rushing into a bar for the first time. I am 42 years old. I don't resist. I don't stop myself. I don't walk around debating whether or not to drink all day. I just don't want amounts of alcohol that won't make me happy, because I have learned what "works" for me.

Would I ever consider heroin as an option? I don't, for a multitude of reasons, including that I am not interested in it. As I mentioned earlier, I have had to take many opioid painkillers post-surgery and did not find it to be a feeling I am interested in having any more. I would only use opioids as needed for pain relief. If I ever did consider heroin or recreational opioid use as an option, I don't think I'd run and do it at the drop of a hat - and I say this also in response to previous comments by others that see TFM as a system where the moment you have a whim to use you just run and do it. TFM encourages you to consider the happiness value of a choice in both the immediate and long-term, and recognize the possibility of choices that unite both - it doesn't encourage impulsivity. All that said, I doubt I'll ever consider heroin or non-medical prescription opioid use anyways.

Again, I want to make sure I speak to the suspicion I've seen expressed throughout this thread that TFM keeps people teetering on the edge. If you define happier options as momentary whims only, then sure, a focus on the happier option might keep some people teetering on the edge. We spend a lot of time defining happier options as much more than that in the book though. Readers know we aren't recommending they run around impulsively reacting to any given whims they might have with no thought of the bigger picture. If they somehow read the whole book and come out with that impression, then they're hearing only what they want to hear.
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Old 03-29-2018, 12:07 PM
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Do you use any other intoxicants in an occasional or moderate manner ?
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Old 03-29-2018, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
Steven
Do you use any other intoxicants in an occasional or moderate manner ?
I do not.
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Old 03-29-2018, 12:56 PM
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I want to make clear I'm not trying to give anything like a lesson in moderation here. I realize that in answering some of these questions, I may come off as if I'm instructing on how to moderate.

We don't instruct on "how to" moderate in TFM. We only say that if you have a moderate desire, then you don't really need a moderation technique. If you have a desire for frequent/heavy use, then a moderation attempt will feel like a struggle it will probably include much resistance or strength. TFM isn't a program for building resistance or strength. We say that attempting moderation while having a desire for heavy/frequent use will probably lead to displeasure with substance use, or saying "screw it" and fulfilling your real level of desire.

It's important for people to know this. There is no moderation plan or technique in TFM. There is no recommendation to moderate. There is just the fact that if you really wanted it, you'd do it without struggle to control yourself. It shows you how to reassess your options, which may result in a truly moderate desire, but may also result in the all or nothing binary as well. It encourages you to come face to face with what you really want, and not to lie to yourself about moderation when you really want heavy/frequent use.
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Old 03-29-2018, 12:57 PM
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Steven,

I can appreciate the TFM, and I know you believe what you believe and articulate here, and I do enjoy reading your thoughts.

But I was wondering, when you decided to write a book, notwithstanding your conviction on the matter, did you formulate your model because it was novel and different from typical company lines of recovery thought? Because I do get tired of reading and hearing that addiction is for life and requires eternal vigilance, etc.--whether it's true or not doesn't have much utility to me in daily life, as all I can choose, as you allude to, is what to do today. Something different is always appreciated, especially if it can be monetized. I'd surmise you considered it (it would be tantamount to negligence if you didn't), but nevertheless, I did want to hear your thoughts *as* you formulated a model and articulated an approach, and proceeded to write about it in a way that goes against conventional thinking (not to say anything on the merits of conventional thinking).
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
Steven,

I can appreciate the TFM, and I know you believe what you believe and articulate here, and I do enjoy reading your thoughts.

But I was wondering, when you decided to write a book, notwithstanding your conviction on the matter, did you formulate your model because it was novel and different from typical company lines of recovery thought? Because I do get tired of reading and hearing that addiction is for life and requires eternal vigilance, etc.--whether it's true or not doesn't have much utility to me in daily life, as all I can choose, as you allude to, is what to do today. Something different is always appreciated, especially if it can be monetized. I'd surmise you considered it (it would be tantamount to negligence if you didn't), but nevertheless, I did want to hear your thoughts *as* you formulated a model and articulated an approach, and proceeded to write about it in a way that goes against conventional thinking (not to say anything on the merits of conventional thinking).
I've tried to respond to this question without writing a darn novel, and it's hard. I'll try to keep to keep my answer as short and sweet as possible. I have been trying to write something that I thought was suitable for mass consumption to truly help people with substance use problems for 13 years. My goal was to be as accurate and helpful as possible, bottom line. I made a lot of wrong turns. I started with a lot of assumptions. I can't separate the starting point of my work fully from my personal convictions about this issue. I started after having solved my problem by rejecting all that I was taught in treatment and support groups. I had other convictions from the method that helped me. Many of these convictions were overturned, many had to be drastically revised to be more accurate, and many were fully confirmed - all as I gained more experience and did more research while trying to write something.

I developed lots of workable stuff over the years. Lots of stuff that worked very well with the people we were helping. But we didn't think it was really ready for mass consumption (to the general reader outside of our classes) until last year when we decided to publish TFM. My goal was never to just be different. It was to make the most accurate, consistent, and helpful book on the issue as possible. We think we did that, and again, don't take it lightly. It's not about being contrarian. It just so happens that from our experience and research, the way we see the issues is very contrary to the mainstream views.
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Old 03-29-2018, 05:22 PM
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In my experience, I never try to explain what addiction is like, or what quitting drinking is like after having been an addict, to people who have never been there and still drink alcohol. They just won't ever understand, which is fine, since we don't all have to understand all things, and since that population includes a large fraction of humanity (most of the rest don't drink either, but have never been addicts, they just don't drink, often for religious reasons). I just generally don't go there.

It's therefore hard for me to understand someone from that population trying to tell me what addiction and abstinence is like, or ought to be like, or that there is no such thing as addiction, or PAWS, etc. There's a need for direct personal experience, and that can't really be compensated by a clinical sort of detachment relying on research and statistics.

Summed up, that's kinda my take on this. Moderation management has a role, and I'm sure the freedom model has a role, but probably not for the vast majority of alcohol addicts who need to hear the truth, which is that they need to stop drinking and remain abstinent permanently.
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Old 03-30-2018, 01:05 AM
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Well, I think it's great that there is another option out there for people who don't want to have a spiritual awakening to quit drinking, or to be in recovery for the rest of their lives. There needs to be options out there. And if telling people they just need to quit was enough, then we wouldn't need any of this. Change starts in the mind, it starts with thoughts and beliefs. The Freedom Method works through positive motivation, which makes sense, people have been beat up enough, they are already afraid and ashamed and those feelings weren't enough to motivate them to change.

Speaking from personal experience, it wasn't until I stopped feeling sorry for myself, and afraid of what my life would look like without my precious drinking in it, and started being excited about what I would discover about myself as a sober person, that I was able to finally let that old self image go. I remember the moment that I decided to do that, it was a pivotal moment.

I think giving people back their control and treating them with dignity, respect, and like the capable adults they are, goes a lot further then the current mainstream ideology does. Nothing would drive me back towards substances more than the people in my life treating me like I'm some sort of ticking time bomb waiting to go off the moment I'm not monitored, or my environment isn't just right, or I'm stressed or upset in some way. People will live up, or down, to their expectations. If one believes they need all these external factors to be just right for them to succeed, or that they will struggle forever, then that's what they will experience. Conversely, if one believes it will be easy and that they already have everything they need inside them to succeed, then that will be their experience.
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Old 03-30-2018, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
It's therefore hard for me to understand someone from that population trying to tell me what addiction and abstinence is like, or ought to be like, or that there is no such thing as addiction, or PAWS, etc. There's a need for direct personal experience, and that can't really be compensated by a clinical sort of detachment relying on research and statistics.
Steven has talked above about his problematic heroin use so I'm not sure why you're saying this.

A model that has happiness as the central motivating factor in recovery is hardly clinically detached. Measured success rates are important because they can help the model evolve and also give confidence to the user.

Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
Summed up, that's kinda my take on this. Moderation management has a role, and I'm sure the freedom model has a role, but probably not for the vast majority of alcohol addicts who need to hear the truth, which is that they need to stop drinking and remain abstinent permanently.
Or perhaps the very different truth that they need to stop thinking like an addict permanently.
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