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Old 03-11-2018, 12:37 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
This book may make some money for the authors, but the "Here's the path you're hoping for, the one that allows you to keep drinking just like us" approach will probably kill 10 people for every 1 it helps.
Gosh, that’s quite an amazing statement. It reminds me of the other Book, that made the author a rich man: despite its own statistics pointing to a 3% success rate...not that I could ever presume the other 97% were killed, unlike your above presumption, that would be absolutely preposterous, because many more people are helped!

Your prediction above, that 90% will probably be killed for every 10% that the Freedom Book helps......crikey, that’s quite an accusation!
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Old 03-12-2018, 02:43 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Their success rate is published here: https://www.saintjudeexecutiveretrea...b-research.php for those interested.

The surveys and analysis have been conducted by an independent research organisation on their entire graduate population over the last 17 years. The essential figure is 62.5% long term abstinence from all substances.
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:33 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Scott, thanks for unlocking this thread.

There are a few ideas I would like to clarify before the thread fades back towards archival status.

AVRT was introduced into this thread way back on post 19 (which got 4 thanks), AVRT terms were not just “beginning” to be considered as suggested in post 92.

Once AVRT is introduced into a thread, I see it as completely logical to point out the Addictive Voice within posts. I believe to not do so would be a disservice to readers, because once pointed out, that AV becomes harmless. And if readers choose not to practice AVRT, it’s no different than pointing out the brown ones in a bowl of M&Ms candy. It doesn’t make the bowl of M&Ms “good” or “no good” as suggested in post 93.
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:11 PM   #104 (permalink)
ours de petit cerveau
 
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Gerald

by nature of it not being AVRT, then obviously there are going to be elements of AV in the method. having it pointed out in every post by you & others is no more useful than if someone was pointing out, for example, "powerlessness" in every post, & it was the reason the thread ended up being locked, as well as being deeply tedious.

I would have thought some of the comments, for example the "barmaid's apron" comment, whoever made that, broke the sub-Forum rules:

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...rum-rules.html (Secular Forum Rules)
"Mocking other programs is not permitted ..."
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Old 03-13-2018, 02:37 PM   #105 (permalink)
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"The Freedom Model for Addictions" by Slate and Scheeren
This recent book has been helpful to me and I'd like to mention its availability in case it would help anyone else.

Rather than try to summarize the model and the background information and discussion that the authors provide, I should allow others to look it up if interested and determine for themselves whether it might be helpful to them.
This was the thread topic. I've seen a few complaints that AVRT has taken over the Secular Forum and members who don't wish to follow that method feel uncomfortable posting here now. Our suggestion was to start their own threads on the topics they wish to discuss. It's important that everyone respects the topic of the original poster. No one wants to feel bullied into following something they might not agree with.
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Old 03-13-2018, 03:46 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by andyh View Post
Gerald

by nature of it not being AVRT, then obviously there are going to be elements of AV in the method. having it pointed out in every post by you & others is no more useful than if someone was pointing out, for example, "powerlessness" in every post, & it was the reason the thread ended up being locked, as well as being deeply tedious.

I would have thought some of the comments, for example the "barmaid's apron" comment, whoever made that, broke the sub-Forum rules:

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...rum-rules.html (Secular Forum Rules)
"Mocking other programs is not permitted ..."
Andy
Smocking , perhaps?

Isn’t there an SR wide ban on promoting use , which this method clearly does? Perhaps discussion of it is entirely verboten?

One of the authors self identifies as having been an addict in treatment and then unhappily abstinent for years , but after presumably applying this methodology is now a happy moderate level user.
Not pointing that out as an ad hominem, more in the line of consider the source.
Feeling bullied is one thing, feeling fooled carries the extra sting of having done it to yourself.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:05 PM   #107 (permalink)
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I believe the meaning of abstinence in any program is of paramount importance, especially whether the program uses conditional abstinence or permanent abstinence or presents them both. The attempt to confront that point in this thread began with the serious introduction of the word “quat” alongside the word “quit”. That creative idea was immediately humorized (or “mocked” if you so choose) in the very next post and received no follow-up until I posted much later about the importance of the difference between permanent and conditional abstinence without using the new coined word “quat”.

The reason I bring this up again is I’m still unsure as to how the Freedom Model deals with the difference between conditional abstinence and permanent abstinence and hope someone could help clarify.

I appreciate this quote from the forum rules “Healthy, vigorous debate will further our goals, but only when guided by the tolerance that springs from mutual embrace of mission.”

I think it’s important to stay on top of who is expressing intolerance of what and keep it to a minimum; and I think everyone who is part of the SR staff has been doing a great job given the state addiction in our society.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:57 AM   #108 (permalink)
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GerandTwine, they don't seem to promote abstinence in and of itself. They don't believe in addiction, so therefore they say there is nothing to recover from. Just different choices to be made after changing your beliefs about being "addicted" in the first place.

Quote:
The Freedom Model as a philosophy to facilitate personal change cuts to the chase and avoids all negativity. So, for you to proactively implement it as a solution, you must embrace it as the truth. In a nutshell, this means

1. shedding the addict/alcoholic self image,

2. taking on the self-image of a free and flexible person,

3. directly reassessing your preferences to find your happiest option, and

4. then moving on with your life--free from any further charade of battling
the bogeyman of addiction.

pg 226
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:30 PM   #109 (permalink)
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That's correct BJ, and the assertion above that the model promotes moderation is incorrect.

The authors say:

To be clear, we are not recommending any substance use whatsoever, and we aren't giving anyone 'permission' to moderate. We have no authority whatsoever to grant or deny permission to do anything. We respect the fact that you make your own choices in life and will do so based on your own judgement regardless of what we say.
pp. 61-62


Thread continues here: https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...tions-2-a.html (The Freedom Model for Addictions - 2)
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