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Old 03-03-2018, 11:08 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I think you raise a very important point. I've only read the free summaries of this model so I don't know if it includes morality but I know AVRT certainly does. But whether this model mentions morality or not I think morality is intrinsically bound up with happiness.

Just to talk about happiness for a moment, I'm sure when we were drinking we loved it because it made us feel happy/pleasure. Feeling more relaxed, more sociable, the buzz, are all forms of happiness or pleasure. I'm using the word 'happy' and 'pleasure' interchangeably here so I'll just say 'happy' because that's the word this model favours.

There doesnt seem to be just one thing called happiness that we can pursue just for its own sake. There are many different sorts of happiness and they all come about by the activity that evokes them. The subjective feeling of happiness we got when we were drinking for example. We didn't experience two different things: drinking and happiness, rather we felt happiness in drinking.

I think happiness is found in many different mental states and activities and a very important form of this is morality, the pursuit of things that are worthwhile for their own sake. We are social beings and can of course empathise with the feelings of others. As you say, if we were to resume drinking it would be an immoral act because we would no longer be living the life we know we should. And this would make us unhappy in this wider sense.
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Old 03-04-2018, 07:14 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I have seen and briefly reviewed some of published work by the group whose "Freedom Model" is mentioned in the OP. Their refutation of the disease model of addiction sits well with my understanding of the volitional aspect of behavior . I don't quite understand their promotion of moderation as an adjunct for the ending of an addiction, but my AV loved the inclusion

To resume drinking only means indulging the desire for more drinks. Through the lens of AVRT there is either more drinks ( or smokes or doses ect) or there isn't. If one makes the decision to abstain, a BP , the option for future 'mores' is removed.
The idea that complete, irrevocable cessation of consumption of a particular substance will lead to a happier you is AV , it is a condition being applied in the present garnering an expectation of future results, the implication being that 'sobriety' is a reward received by the action of not drinking(using). Instead of the reality that not drinking isn't an action , not being intoxicated is the result of not consuming intoxicating substances.

One does not travel by hovercraft by refusing to travel by hovercraft , one simply doesn't pilot a hovercraft. In practicing a shifting exercise one does not open a bottle and pour a drink and then refuse to imbibe, drinking it isn't an option via the BP, one does however refuse the Beast , the desire , the want , the urge to have that drink and feel the release of the Beast set free.

Seeing 'quitting' as an ongoing, perpetual, daily ,conditioned semi-permanent state is pure AV.

" addiction is always there, lurking in the background, be on guard, protect your happiness, your sobriety, one drink and it as all undone..ect"

Making a BP means that even if what the AV purports were true, it wouldn't matter. Making a BP also means that if stopping drinking for what ever period of time and allowing for physical and psychic 'healing' to occur would mean that someone could then drink again with no negative consequences , it still wouldn't matter ( see the BP )
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Old 03-04-2018, 12:47 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The way I read it is that it's saying that it's important to make your own assessment of what relationship you want to have with drink/drugs. I didn't see anywhere that it promotes moderation, or abstinence come to that. I think it does say that it is a choice best left to you. And then, once you have made your choice, there is really little left to do other than live out the choice you have made.

I don't think it does say that happiness will somehow "come" if you stop drinking. I agree that that would be AV because if happiness doesn't come then you may well think "Well that didn't work, I may as well drink then." What I got from it is that if you feel that you have freely considered all the options that are available to you and made your choice then you will be happy from the onset and quitting will be easy in the sense that you have freely chosen it and so will feel that it is something that you really want to do.
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Old 03-04-2018, 01:09 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I have not read the book, but I looked for reviews and came across more of a sales pitch, The Freedom Model I stopped reading here, "The Recovery Society has infected our culture..." Infected, seriously? It gets old reading the same old angry stuff, fist shaking and finger pointing, always coupled to "But WE have a better way!", and it's particularly suspect when someone is trying to make money off that better way.

There is no better way, other than the way that works best for you. If this approach, whatever exactly it is, helps some people, great. But clearly it will turn others away.
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Old 03-04-2018, 01:44 PM   #45 (permalink)
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The way I read it is that it's saying that it's important to make your own assessment of what relationship you want to have with drink/drugs. I didn't see anywhere that it promotes moderation, or abstinence come to that. I think it does say that it is a choice best left to you. And then, once you have made your choice, there is really little left to do other than live out the choice you have made.

I don't think it does say that happiness will somehow "come" if you stop drinking. I agree that that would be AV because if happiness doesn't come then you may well think "Well that didn't work, I may as well drink then." What I got from it is that if you feel that you have freely considered all the options that are available to you and made your choice then you will be happy from the onset and quitting will be easy in the sense that you have freely chosen it and so will feel that it is something that you really want to do.
That's a good summation, Aleric, that's what I took away from it too. It's saying to figure out what you really want to do regarding your substance use, question what you've been taught and what your beliefs are, and then go with what feels right. But they don't believe addiction needs treatment because they don't believe it's a disease that can be treated. It's an individual choice made freely.
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Old 03-04-2018, 01:54 PM   #46 (permalink)
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"pop"Culture is imbued with the ideas of recoveryism, :disease, victimhood, nonresponsibility. That isn't finger pointing and fist waiving just fact.
Cut and run , dry
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Old 03-04-2018, 01:54 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Jeffrey AK,

I really don't think it is saying that they have a better way. On the contrary I think it's saying that quitting is just another choice that you make in your life and that there's nothing particularly mysterious about it, and the same process of looking at possible future outcomes and deciding on which one to actualise applies just as it does with any other decision you make.
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Old 03-04-2018, 04:22 PM   #48 (permalink)
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...it's saying that quitting is just another choice that you make in your life and that there's nothing particularly mysterious about it, and the same process of looking at possible future outcomes and deciding on which one to actualise applies just as it does with any other decision you make.
It's really not that simple, though, not for most addicts. There aren't forums and programs and medical treatment centers to help people decide to stop drinking diet soda, say, or take a different job, or move. People don't die from failing to make a decision to stop eating so much cheese, at least not very many people. When drinking turns into an addiction, that they feel compelled to continue despite an increasing weight of negative consequences, it's not just another choice, and most people need a lot of help to make that choice, including those who gravitate towards this particular model (otherwise they'd just make it and be done with it, and have no need to buy a book or even go looking for a book).

Perhaps there's more to it, I didn't read beyond that sentence, but shaking their fists at people who make a choice different from what they'd prefer they make just leads me to stop reading.
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Old 03-04-2018, 05:00 PM   #49 (permalink)
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People don't die from failing to make a decision to stop eating so much cheese, at least not very many people.
perhaps not specifically from cheese, but I'd dispute that "not very many people" die from obesity-related causes. maybe there's not quite the behavioural craziness - driving under the influence of cheese for instance - but there's plenty of premature mortality there.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:01 AM   #50 (permalink)
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People don't die from failing to make a decision to stop eating so much cheese, at least not very many people.
Perhaps that's because there is no cheddar brigade telling us that we have a cheese fixation and can't do anything about it. It there was then a lot of people may get mouse-trapped in addiction.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:09 AM   #51 (permalink)
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it's not just another choice, and most people need a lot of help to make that choice, including those who gravitate towards this particular model (otherwise they'd just make it and be done with it, and have no need to buy a book or even go looking for a book).
It's an interesting question why such a simple model as this one needs a whole book to describe it. Why would we need more than a tweet that says something like "We are fully in control and can quit any time we like"?

This model says that addiction only really exists as a set of beliefs and that we have just lost our natural sense that we are in control of our actions when it comes to addiction. Now whether that is right or wrong, if that is it's claim then it's difficulty is going to be not so much in saying what the model is, which is essentially simple, but in helping people change any existing beliefs they may hold that are preventing them seeing that do have this natural sense of control and this could well require a whole book to do so. Seems to me AVRT faces the same problem.
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:37 AM   #52 (permalink)
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This model says that addiction only really exists as a set of beliefs and that we have just lost our natural sense that we are in control of our actions when it comes to addiction.

yes. my own experienc was the opposite: i firmly believed i was in control, despite repeated evidence that i had lost control.
my firm belief and natural sense of being in control with regards to my drinking caused me no end of distress as i tried over and over again to impose this control on myself and my drinking.
my set of beliefs were harder to let go of than the drinking.

i'm not being snarky here, nor looking for an argument.
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:26 AM   #53 (permalink)
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One of the points they make in the book is the both treated and untreated addicts recover at the the same rates, in fact the untreated recover at a slightly higher rate. What they ask in the book, and I quote,
Quote:
"What would you conclude if you took a group of people with a disease, and gave some of them medical treatment and the others no treatment, yet both groups recovered equally? You'd have to conclude that both groups resolved their own problems by their own power. You'd conclude that the treatment doesn't really work. And if it doesn't work, then it certainly isn't "needed."
It's not the first time that I've read that most people get better, no matter if they seek treatment or not. I think the idea is that once a person decides to go to treatment they've already decided to quit and the treatment is because they believe they need it, when all they needed was to decide to quit.
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:27 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Perhaps that's because there is no cheddar brigade telling us that we have a cheese fixation and can't do anything about it. It there was then a lot of people may get mouse-trapped in addiction.
Definitely.
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:14 PM   #55 (permalink)
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This model says that addiction only really exists as a set of beliefs and that we have just lost our natural sense that we are in control of our actions when it comes to addiction.

yes. my own experienc was the opposite: i firmly believed i was in control, despite repeated evidence that i had lost control.
my firm belief and natural sense of being in control with regards to my drinking caused me no end of distress as i tried over and over again to impose this control on myself and my drinking.
my set of beliefs were harder to let go of than the drinking.

i'm not being snarky here, nor looking for an argument.
Not to be argumentative or snarky, but I see what you say here as exactly as AVRT professes , once you separated from the AV, changed your beliefs of control , not drinking wasn't as hard as your beliefs(AV) lead you to believe it was.
Imposing control over yourself and your drinking was a conscious plan for more drinks, once that plan changed, you quit , yeah ?
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:38 PM   #56 (permalink)
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BUT, the reality is that "addiction" is a very real thing whether one wishes to call it that or not. It really is not as simple as just up and deciding one day to stop for a truly addicted person. Though it is possible to adopt a simple approach to staying 'stopped' once that has been achieved. Some form of intervention is usually required for those deeply entrenched in addiction, and it can be done from within as well - self-intervention (?)
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Old 03-05-2018, 06:13 PM   #57 (permalink)
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no, dwtbd, that is not what i am saying.
i had not lost my " natural sense" of having control; i very much had that sense and could not implement the control i supposedly naturally had.
i had to change my beliefs about the control in exactly the opposite way fom what you're saying.

and i am posting this here because i think diversity of experience is important, as is diversityof input when discussing a "model".
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:33 AM   #58 (permalink)
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BUT, the reality is that "addiction" is a very real thing whether one wishes to call it that or not. It really is not as simple as just up and deciding one day to stop for a truly addicted person. Though it is possible to adopt a simple approach to staying 'stopped' once that has been achieved. Some form of intervention is usually required for those deeply entrenched in addiction, and it can be done from within as well - self-intervention (?)
Agreed, addiction is very real and in terms of the Freedom Model it is how you have learned to see yourself. In chapter 8 in the summaries linked to above all three writers talk about their own heavy drink/drug use and say how they were led to believe that they had crossed a "learned line" to being in a life-long struggle and how hopeless and despondent and even suicidal this made them feel. They say that worst thing of all was that they came to believe that they needed their substance as opposed to previously just liking it.

They call this hopeless state the "addict self-image" and say that just as this is learned it can be unlearned and this is done by letting go of this harmful self-identity and creating a new one where you are in control and can quit any time you like.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:02 AM   #59 (permalink)
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BUT, the reality is that "addiction" is a very real thing whether one wishes to call it that or not. It really is not as simple as just up and deciding one day to stop for a truly addicted person. Though it is possible to adopt a simple approach to staying 'stopped' once that has been achieved. Some form of intervention is usually required for those deeply entrenched in addiction, and it can be done from within as well - self-intervention (?)
No one quits, decides one day to never use again, unless they do , yeah?

It is simple though, as in uncomplicated, but not necessarily easy.

Continuing an addiction is impossible without the availability of the substance, without physically ingesting /consuming the chemicals. Medieval serfs were not embroiled in an 'opioid epidemic' .

Volition is a part of human nature , addiction is the state of being in relation to use when one doesn't lose their volition but instead convinces themselves to abandon it.

Use and abuse can be volitional acts, some people place a high value on the hedonistic pleasure and choose to chase the buzz. Some people use to only avoid withdrawal, placing a high value on not having to go through the immediate discomfort , which can obviously be severe , and continue to use.

Use in and of itself isn't 'addiction' , perceiving one's self to not have volition in relation to cessation is.

The AV will try and convince permanent abstinence is too draconian, and it is because it means no more drinks ,ever, oh the humanity , foregoing intoxication for the rest of life?! My AV bristles at the notion and always will , no matter though, it isn't a cross to bear just a choice made.

Chemical intoxication is all that and then some , but what are you going to do ?
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:37 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Use and abuse can be volitional acts, some people place a high value on the hedonistic pleasure and choose to chase the buzz. Some people use to only avoid withdrawal, placing a high value on not having to go through the immediate discomfort , which can obviously be severe , and continue to use.

Use in and of itself isn't 'addiction' , perceiving one's self to not have volition in relation to cessation is.
And that is the part of addiction that I failed to delineate in my post, the physical addiction. But the mental addiction - a learned behavior - over many many years is just as difficult to overcome, and why some type of "intervention", be it a sudden self-awareness or an outside influence, is needed to start the process.

I knew for many years I was an alcoholic, but I liked chasing the buzz more than anything else. Over time it became more of a comfort zone for me. I'd been drunk for so long that I was okay with it. But I was unable to recognize the gradual progression as it took over my life. It wasn't until I got sober that I realized how silly it was.

Consider the person born and raised in a prison camp, they know no other way. Or the reference in "Shaw Shank Redemption" about Brooks, he'd been in so long he knows no other way to live and couldn't survive "on the outside". These are very real attributes of an addict, one who has many years. They forgot what reality was like over time, or even know what it is. And that is why it is so difficult for so many to 'change' - to just make the decision one day.
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