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Discussion thread for those without a HP recovering from substance abuse

Old 08-01-2006, 02:11 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BSPGirl
I consider myself recovered, all done by me only, the real 'HP' in life is the strenght the human race has to bounce back into shape.

Marte
Good to see you here, darlin'. Thanks for sharing.

xo
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Old 08-01-2006, 02:24 AM
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I think an essential part of recovery is learning to enjoy day to day life. Life is even more extrodinary sober than dry. It really is!!

Good thread Autumn!

I can type without feeling 'egotistical'.
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Old 08-01-2006, 02:37 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Wink

Yep, and easy to find, too! Just look for the friendly green arrow symbol.
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Autumn
Those without a HP who consider themselves "recovered" also welcome!
That would be me.... but to presume I'm recovered only applies in my mind to an addiction to cocaine I beat years ago.

As far as recovering from unhealthy thinking and/or behavior, I'm still a work in progress. I would like to think that somewhere in my eulogy it's mentioned that I attempted to live an impeccable life. Would be a nice legacy to leave behind and be a basis for influencing my children.
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:37 AM
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Sometimes it's hard to enjoy life but I'm trying every day to set my best foot forward.

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Old 08-01-2006, 09:49 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bobby4444
...my intentions. Which are to simply share my thoughts, with the understanding that I respect the thoughts of others that differ from mine.
Understood! With respect, all considerate perspectives welcome and encouraged! So long as all parties are open to open discussion...

Originally Posted by bobby4444
Spirituality, to me, does not exist. The reason I came to that conclusion was because of the definitions involved with it... At best, I conclude it as an idea, an interpretation of an individual.
I don't want to rely on a higher power, I want to rely on me and people who I can talk to.
Such is precisely why I do find spirituality a considerable concept. Spirituality is about the exploration of ideas, of the ethereal, contemplation of the incorporeal and that of immaterial nature. The definition of spiritual includes "of or relating to mind or intellect".

The immaterial, or so-called 'dark matter' comprises an estimated over 97% of the universe. The tangible material, under 3%. The human mind can conceive of only a tiny fragment of all that exists. We can barely tap into all that exists beyond what we can perceive through the senses. But the senses are sooo restricted, limited. Ideas exists. So much exists beyond what we perceive.

Originally Posted by bobby4444
Spirituality is an idea that seems to be an emotional reaction to all that doesn't make sense, or furthermore, all that is chaotic in what we are able to comprehend. Spirituality... fails to provide anything that is useful.
"Religion picks up where science leaves off". Spirituality in its corrupt (popular) definition involves mysticism and emotions. It's religion that seeks to explain that which we cannot comprehend. Spirituality does not define the answers in any certain terms. Rather, it leaves the field wide open to interpretation. It's all about contemplation of how everything works together. It is the attempt to bring into consciousness, through contemplation of ideas and concepts outside of our own limited understanding. Spirituality is an attempt to become aware of what all we're not physically aware of. That, to me, is a useful pursuit. Requiring both internal reasoning as well as relying on external input. That is Interconnectedness in action.

Fascinating to observe, Bobby, how you and I have followed similar paths, first as a christian, then agnostic (unless you consider drugs a higher power, which for me they undeniably were), tried to follow the lead of NA, and now...I'm not athiest, probably closer to naturalist, I suppose. Where things make reasonable SENSE.

Originally Posted by bobby4444
I was born an atheist, just like the rest of the population of the world. None of us knew of anything that resembled a God until we were taught it.
Actually, we aren't born athiest, we're born ignorant. We never knew anything until we learned it. All programming. All about learned experience and learned emotion and learned response. Hard wiring. Yep, my understanding too comes across as cold, calculating and unfeeling. Others see this and they get to feel superior to me, because they think they're more compassionate and caring than me. I leave them free to reel in their mysticism and God-mystery. While I'm busy reasoning things out and happily enjoying the process.
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Five
But I do have faith, ironicaly, in reason (see CBT). Reason when I use it conciously and consistantly really gives me the tools that I need to survive. I also find great comfort and solace and growth in 'living healthily' - just making sure I am not putting my mind and body through a lot of junk. I am not really a 'goals, direction, success!!!' type, but I enjoy doing a nice days work, and moving slowly on. I think the 'art of living' is 'my recovery program' - just trying to lead a decent healthy life. I am through with the old madness and the big silly ideas in my head.
I'm hopeful that this is for real, that I can rely on reason and improved skill in the "art of living" to steer me through, because I'm not through with the old madness yet. Progressing steadily along this unpaved road, it's really rough going sometimes. Faith in reason. It's a hopeful foundation on which to build...I think...
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Autumn
It can be really hard to sit still and relax in the beginning (I understand what you mean by lazy tho).
Meditation seems the art of achieving internal calm. Ironic the focus that's involved to make it work. I can't get my mind to be quiet nor senses to disengage long enough to get anywhere with this. I can't decide if I really want to, either. I LIKE being intently engaged!
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Old 08-01-2006, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by aloneagainor
Meditation seems the art of achieving internal calm. Ironic the focus that's involved to make it work. I can't get my mind to be quiet nor senses to disengage long enough to get anywhere with this. I can't decide if I really want to, either. I LIKE being intently engaged!
I am always engaged, except when I meditate. I had a problem at first learning to quiet my brain and thoughts down. I was taught to concentrate on a little sphere or ball. Closed my eyes and saw this little ball right in the center. Every time my thoughts wandered, so did the ball. I would then put my concentration back on moving the ball back to the center. It sounds so simple but worked wonders.
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Old 08-02-2006, 06:00 AM
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A thank you and some thoughts

Originally Posted by Autumn
This is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read (and I'm keeping it). I'm really touched. I thank you so much for taking the time to share. It's as if you plucked the thoughts, feelings, and motives right out of my head..... and that's very validating.
Last night I read these comments you wrote. The feeling I experienced is pretty much undescribable. As the night progressed and I continued to consider why it mattered to me so much, then it finally occurred to me that it was so much more than the compliment itself. I appreciate your kind words and it really pleases me that you were willing to share them because I try really hard to stay true to my beliefs by also staying true to principles I try to operate by (failing often though). The point is that it can be a very unpopular place for me to live. I pretty much go through life feeling misunderstood and even though I attempt to ignore it as to not allow something like that to knock me sideways, influencing me to compromise myself, it is still difficult because I am one of those creatures, known as a human being. I thirst for acceptance and all that happy crap. So, the real point is, when I am expressing my position ( a mere slice of it) and someone like yourself is effected as you described, well, it offered me a 'high' like no drug has ever given me. I felt very proud to be a person. Thank you Autumn for your comments. Thank you very much!

Originally Posted by Autumn
It takes me so much time and thought just to type a simple post when it's something personal. I don't mean to offend anyone. I love people so much. This is a painful position to be in, when really it shouldn't be. I'm just getting by like everyone else.

Thanks again neighbor. Welcome to SR.
The above quote, tell me, how long and how much thought did that take? It is incredibly personal. It is also profound. Three sentences that are filled with an incredible amount wealth based on your truth. (I know what you mean by trying not to offend anyone) In addition, your compassion for others is spewing all over, that my darling friend, is a very good thing. You also mention that it is a painful position to be in, when really it shouldn't be. Well, maybe I am guessing as the information is limited, but can it be fair to guess that the pain results from the magnitude of concern that goes on in your head that too often becomes over looked-and all for not-as it too often may seem to never have the impact outside of yourself that you (mirrored with you feelings) know that it deserves. Assuming there is some accuracy to that assumption, can it be safe for me to guess that the pain is a result from a form of disappointment? Furthermore, if that rings true at all, may I add that you can discover and accept solace in knowing that the very strength and/or magnitude of any pain you experience, has so much to do with your ability to share the words that you shared with me. That pain is an indicator that you can feel intense love and many additional positive emotions.
Look, I know I really ran away with this and began a bit of a tangent or something of the sort, I just want to say (rather I know what I am talking about or not) that it appears, within those three sentences you wrote, that you experience something that may seem a bit daunting. Well, there is a guy out there that has the notion he can relate to you, to your comments and that he wants to say that the very thing he believes he is relating to can be used and/or regarded as an advantage. It seems apparent that you feel. That is an indicator that your alive. When it feels painful, at anytime, do your best to simply understand that the pain is just a reaction to something, it need not be anything more, that way you never allow it to lead you to a plae you do not want to go. Instead it can simply remind you that you are alive.
Autumn, forgive me for running away with your three sentences and possibly going in a direction with them I had no business going. I just get carried away sometimes. What can I say? I just hope what I did say makes a little sence. I have the idea it may seem like a bunch of rambling.
I will close now before I take up the entire storage space of this web-site.
One more thing, I didn't realize what you meant by neighbor, when you closed your comments before. I get it. We are neighbors, aren't we? Small world.

Be Good,
Bobby
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Old 08-02-2006, 06:53 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by aloneagainor
Such is precisely why I do find spirituality a considerable concept. Spirituality is about the exploration of ideas, of the ethereal, contemplation of the incorporeal and that of immaterial nature. The definition of spiritual includes "of or relating to mind or intellect".
First and foremost, I really enjoyed reading your comments/thoughts, particulary as they respond to my own. I love this type of interaction as I try (not always succeeding) to remain open minded about things as I constantly pursue truth and understanding. So, as I read your words, it occurred to me that it may seem we disagree, but I am not so certain. Much of what you said I actually agree with, but using the above quote for an example, I simply would use different terminology. That is not to say I disagree with your definition, because I do agree with it fully. I agree with all of them. But for me, I simply choose not to refer to a definition of spirituality. But I love the words you wrote, "of or relating to mind or intelliect." I like them all by themselves. Just as they are.


Originally Posted by aloneagainor
The immaterial, or so-called 'dark matter' comprises an estimated over 97% of the universe. The tangible material, under 3%. The human mind can conceive of only a tiny fragment of all that exists. We can barely tap into all that exists beyond what we can perceive through the senses. But the senses are sooo restricted, limited. Ideas exists. So much exists beyond what we perceive.
The above paragraph becomes an interesting subject for discussion. I fear that it is pointless though because of my ignorance. I have some thoughts and opinions regarding it, though I certainly am uneducated in this arena. It seems to be a subject that is essential, though extremely uncharted, therefore, difficult. However, I wonder how the numbers become what they are, 97% vs. 3%. Furthermore, the word immaterial, it may not be what you intended (who am I to say though). All I mean is that it implies, nothing of matter, both physical and of consequence. To me, that is the defintion of immaterial. Considering that, putting a 97% number on it seems extreme, and I question how it is even possible to do, if it is immaterial. Isn't 'nothing' infinite? If it isn't nothing, than it isn't immaterial. If we are calling it immaterial just because we cannot identify it, then we are misdefining it and we should simply refer to it as the undefinable thing. Particularly when we are considering our connection to it. We are doing that by discussing our ignorance to it. I don't know, I agree wholeheartedly with the "Ideas exists" comment. I have so many, as you apparently do too. I also agree with what you said about so much exists compared to what we can perceive. There are even truths inside that truth. Not only does what you say ring true, we need to consider how our humaness influences how we perceive. Most people allow their emotions to alter their ability to perceive. It's crazy. The psychology of it all adds a whole other realm to this.
Anyway, as I mentioned I am no expert on physics, particularly that of the quantum type. I will say though, even in the vastness of all that seems immaterial, there is something that exists. Not only the smallest atoms and all that good happy stuff, but the space between.

Originally Posted by aloneagainor
"Religion picks up where science leaves off". Spirituality in its corrupt (popular) definition involves mysticism and emotions. It's religion that seeks to explain that which we cannot comprehend. Spirituality does not define the answers in any certain terms. Rather, it leaves the field wide open to interpretation. It's all about contemplation of how everything works together. It is the attempt to bring into consciousness, through contemplation of ideas and concepts outside of our own limited understanding. Spirituality is an attempt to become aware of what all we're not physically aware of. That, to me, is a useful pursuit. Requiring both internal reasoning as well as relying on external input. That is Interconnectedness in action.
Your comments here are certainly fair. I have no reason whatsoever to disagree with them on the terms that this is what you think. You can think this by all means. As a matter of fact, the essence of your point, I agree with too. But it does seem that my initial points may have been misunderstood. You see, I do not deny the existence of the word spiritualiy. I do not deny your definition or anyone else's. What I deny, is applying those definitions, as a definition of spirituality, to my life. But as you describe your definition of spiritualality and furthermore mention that it is a useful pursuit, I agree. I just call it for what I see it to be, which for me, is something that makes more sense. I refer to it as seeking answers to questions. Nothing more, nothing less. As I said in my original post, much of what I do, others would define as spirituality. I just do not see the need to apply that word to the actions I am taking. But the pursuit, well, that is huge. It seems we are simply defining things a little different to suit our own personal comfort zones. That is fine. When two people such as our selves can agree to do something like that, we seem to may find ourselves discovering we have a great deal in common after all. It is the very thing that I wish the human race could do.

Originally Posted by aloneagainor
Fascinating to observe, Bobby, how you and I have followed similar paths, first as a christian, then agnostic (unless you consider drugs a higher power, which for me they undeniably were), tried to follow the lead of NA, and now...I'm not athiest, probably closer to naturalist, I suppose. Where things make reasonable SENSE.
I certainly did regard drugs as a higher power. I will keep this brief because this could branch off into a million directions. But I will say, even as an atheist, (though I may need to give it more consideration) I could possibly consider myself a naturalist too. I guess I could be both. I don't see why not.
I certainly like things to, as you said, "make reasonable sense."


Originally Posted by aloneagainor
Actually, we aren't born athiest, we're born ignorant. We never knew anything until we learned it. All programming. All about learned experience and learned emotion and learned response. Hard wiring. Yep, my understanding too comes across as cold, calculating and unfeeling. Others see this and they get to feel superior to me, because they think they're more compassionate and caring than me. I leave them free to reel in their mysticism and God-mystery. While I'm busy reasoning things out and happily enjoying the process.
You are so correct my friend. Thank you for enlightening me. My becoming an atheist was in fact a choice. I was born ignorant. I didn't see the preciseness of my comments before. I spoke to vaguely. I like to be precise in my thinking, so you should know that I am so pleased you wrote that. We are born ignorant, unaware. Yes.

I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to consider the things you had said, the things you think. I enjoyed reading your words and that they provoked me to consider my own position. That is what I thirst for. What you had done, particularly how you done it, was very thoughtful. Very cool!
I regard our little collaboration as an example the world could learn from. We displayed opposing view points and expressed them with tolerance, compassion, and open-mindedness, all the way, I even discovered that our opposing view points had an incredible amount of common ground. We actually have a great deal in common.

Be Good!
Bobby
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Old 08-03-2006, 08:39 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Interesting the God/ religious implications associated with the word Spirituality. I suppose because it involves the intangible, ethereal, non-quantifiable that they're all presumed to deal with that realm of mystical/ magical/ ritual inherent to God-speak. But spiritual relies heavily on mind, intellect, and understanding of connections within the natural world. One isn't compromising their position about being secular by accepting the concept or term "spiritual".

I'm certainly no expert on quantum mechanics either, but it's such a new science, no-one really knows for sure...not that we really know for sure much about anything, as history reveals. Just working with information to the best of our knowledge at present. I got those percentiles from a NOVA program on PBS. They're based in what can be measured in individual atoms, the amount of physical material of the atom, compared to the space it occupies.
Since all in nature appears to be repeating patterns, differing only in scale, they came about those numbers as rough estimates. Point being, there's so much we don't know. So vastly much more that we don't know than what we do, and what we do know is all subject to change the more we learn. It's quite humbling.


Originally Posted by bobby4444
...we need to consider how our humaness influences how we perceive. Most people allow their emotions to alter their ability to perceive. It's crazy. The psychology of it all adds a whole other realm to this.
"Illusions are painfully shattered, right where discovery starts. In the sacred wells of emotion, very deep in our hearts..."-Rush (the band of course).
Oh people DO like to cling to their illusions. Without awareness, emotions rule us.

Originally Posted by bobby4444
It seems we are simply defining things a little different to suit our own personal comfort zones. That is fine. When two people such as our selves can agree to do something like that, we seem to may find ourselves discovering we have a great deal in common after all. It is the very thing that I wish the human race could do.
So difficult to step ourside of ourselves, our own ego, to see what IS, and why and how things work the way they do. And how they affect everything around them. People would so rather cling to rigid beliefs of right and wrong, very narrow constricted, exclusive views, all-or-none, heaven and hell, good and evil. Completely overlooking the fact that BOTH sides can and do exist simultaneously, in fact are dependent on each other for the other side to exist (i.e. there is no such thing as a one-sided coin). Oh there I go again off on that tangent...

Originally Posted by bobby4444
I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to consider the things you had said, the things you think. I enjoyed reading your words and that they provoked me to consider my own position. That is what I thirst for. What you had done, particularly how you done it, was very thoughtful. Very cool!
Indeed. It's at the heart of my recovery approach, to think things through, to see WHY I think/ act/ react the way I do. There is no religion, no God, no program that's going to do that for me.
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by aloneagainor
Indeed. It's at the heart of my recovery approach, to think things through, to see WHY I think/ act/ react the way I do. There is no religion, no God, no program that's going to do that for me.
Well said my friend!
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Old 08-04-2006, 05:45 AM
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looking foward to reading this thread closer. have not had time yet...
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Old 08-04-2006, 06:17 AM
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Alera!

By the time the **** crows, you will have denied Christ three times. The first was by posting in this thread.
































Just kidding Alera.

Friends, Alera was the first person in the whole wide world to introduce me to the SMART toolkit.

Thank you for your useful post Alera.

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Old 08-04-2006, 06:20 AM
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Why is the word "c*ck" blocked? (No pun intended.)

Lol.
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Old 08-05-2006, 01:58 AM
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Hmm.

During my mini-vacation, when I was having some technical difficulties and couldn't log on, I shopped some other message boards. Particularly those which are mental health oriented. I figured SR is really the only recovery BB I want to belong to. My loyalties are here, I guess. It's neat *seeing* the same people day after day, connecting, becoming ever more familiar - bonding, if you will. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you've got 'til it's gone.

Over the past two or three months (maybe longer), I have found myself growing tired of the "recovery" theme..... the whole idea just became boring at times; perhaps even tedious. I have felt restless and almost tied down, longing to deftly peel around the next corner and race on down life's highway. The problems I face now sometimes present as separate from recovery, and as psychological alone. The substance abuse is over forever. While perusing these other "mental health" message boards, the recovery element still seemed so important to me, and the forums very noticeably empty without the connection. Substance abuse and mental health remain inextricably linked for me still. I cannot describe with certainty why this is.

Just some thoughts.
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Old 08-05-2006, 10:26 AM
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I just wanted to thank you all for sharing your thoughts in this thread. I am new to this forum... not an addict, but a wife of one... and I am struggling with some of the concepts in Al-Anon. Many of the thoughts you all have expressed here could have come from my own brain. I too went from Christian to atheist to agnostic to... well, I like the word "naturalist." Quantum mechanics (the little I know of it) has also played a pivotal role in my progressive understanding of life and my own journey in it.

It is just so nice to find other people who view their attempts to live a healthy life in a similar light. The depth of sharing and respect and thought here is so impressive.

Thank you.

I feel a little less alone today.
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Old 08-05-2006, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by eenzamster
It is just so nice to find other people who view their attempts to live a healthy life in a similar light. The depth of sharing and respect and thought here is so impressive.

I feel a little less alone today.
Agreed whole-heartedly.
Welcome eenzamster.
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Old 08-05-2006, 11:32 AM
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Those of us who describe to a HP still think for ourselves in the same manner as any other. I'm very curious by nature and do not feel that accepting a HP has hobbled or limited my ability to think for myself, explore, intellectualize, etc. I do make decisions for myself and do not accept everything that is suggested or demanded of me in the name of religion. I do not subscribe to a lamb led to slaughter sort of blind faith. I understand you point however. There are those who do. Those of us that rely on spiritual guidance vary and do not have to believe the same. Anchoring us all into the same category is not an accurate representation.

Asking for daily spiritual guidance does not mean we are unprepared for the tragedies that may touch our lives, or that we are excluded by a protective shield of glowing light. We are not unfamiliar to pain or sorrow that comes with life. Believing in a HP does not shut off our brain and render us ignorant. I am capable of merging self will with spirituality, so I believe.



I hope you don't mind me coming to share my beliefs here. I enjoy reading other beliefs and ideas. It does help expand my thought process. I feel strongly in establishing that we all do not fall under the same lumping when referring to spirituality. I recognize that those here likely understand this more than anyone else. You have found your place and are exploring your options. That is cool. I have my own beliefs, but still like to venture into your own.

I have to chuckle when I read some of the comments. I picture a few of us with the HP belief wandering aimlessly in a zombie state as the the man in the sky points and aims his giant remote control triggering us to turn left or right, eat, sleep, think. Hmmmm...who really knows? I don't have all the answers, far from it. I say... whatever gets you through the day, gives you comfort, encourages thought and growth, own it and find strength in it. Live it, respect it and keep searching for whatever sparks your fire.

Today that is how I believe. Nothing is set in stone. Tomorrow I may view things differently. I am always open to knew thoughts and ideas. I appreciate you sharing yours with me.
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