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~IS the Alcoholics Immoral for Just Being an Alcoholic?

Old 07-31-2006, 01:36 AM
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~IS the Alcoholics Immoral for Just Being an Alcoholic?

No. I believe that an alcoholic is a very sick person, who is living life very unhealthily. I believe there are immoral, nasty, vicious alcoholics, but I also believe that is just at the extreme and that the moral compuss is just a complex with alkys than it is with sober people.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:42 AM
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?
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:09 AM
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What if I rephrase the question?

Is the act of addiction without attempting to stop immoral?

For a whole person to be immoral means weighing up every aspect of their being - something I have niether the tools, time or inclination to undertake.

Am I immoral because I smoke?
No - I have morals, I act on them, I care but I'm also far from perfect.

Is smoking immoral?
It has few positive outcomes, it is likely to cause harm to those I love, it is certainly self centred - so yes I think smoking is immoral.

But I am not immoral.....
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:11 AM
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Hmm.
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Five
No. I believe that an alcoholic is a very sick person, who is living life very unhealthily. I believe there are immoral, nasty, vicious alcoholics, but I also believe that is just at the extreme and that the moral compuss is just a complex with alkys than it is with sober people.
Which scrapyard did you pick this out of, 5?
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:15 AM
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Moral "compuss".
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:19 AM
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Thanks for the fine, forensic analysis tho Eq.
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:24 AM
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he he he

very true - almost gibberish.
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:34 AM
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The disease model liberates the individual from the idea that they are "bad" because they are alcoholic. Those of us who are alcoholics are familiar with the emotional wringer we put ourselves through of shame, recrimination, guilt, self-loathing and on and on and on. If we eventually accept that we have a disease (and read for that, syndrome, handicap, disability, allergy, illness, whatever - again, it is one of those places where the word doesn't matter too much) - then we can seperate out the effects - poor relationships, letting people down, hurting people, cheating, lying and again, on and on and on _ from the cause - compulsive drinking. That orderliness - and I dunno about anyone else but it was a forehead slapping moment, a Homer D'Oh of epic proportions - of the two things being in separate gategories allowed me to address the compulsive drinking - just don't pick up the first drink, one day at a time - quite separate from the effects - takes time to repair me and the harm I've done.

You know the mantra. We're not bad people trying to get good, we're sick people trying to get well.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:20 AM
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A medical disease model could and would never achieve what you suggest. There is nothing in the definition of disease laid out in the dictionary which supports removing personal responsibility.

The focus of medicine is changing from a model where the patient is simply subject to a model where they a object as part of getting well - from cancer, asthma, mental health, heart complaints, to recovering from a broken bone, the patient has become an active player who's actions will have consequences and who is given responsibility quite rightly.

The medical model of addiction can be found in medical journals, DSM IV- Tr diagnosis, and a fine start would be the dictionary.

The 'disease model' I believe is far to quickly grasped without the effort of learning and as a result has become baby food which no longer resembles what it claims to represent.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:25 AM
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I do not believe i have a disease, and I do not believe I am immoral - if that makes sense.

Eq sums it up with the rational analysis approach of the person...to weigh it up.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Five
he he he

very true - almost gibberish.
You know what 5, something about what you posted made me almost (dare I say) "sick" at heart, and almost guilty for having ridiculed the questioner/questionee. Paul's post about humanity really drove that home for me.

I live in a very under-privileged, poor section of my city - primarily stocked with under-educated individuals - and what you wrote sounds so much like what goes on in weekly meetings down the street.

And I don't say that to be facetious - it's the truth. It really is sad. Poor addicts who have nowhere else to go, and no other means of enlightenment. Imagine that..... an addict who lives in an impoverished area and is illiterate.

I am so sorry.....

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Old 07-31-2006, 03:36 AM
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I dont really understand how that is linked to my original post...but I know what you mean. Drug abuse and drug addiction is so much, so much higher in poor places (and the disease theory neatly avades environmental factors). A problem, I believe, that cannot be treated away, but can be helped by social reform??? Dont know.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:39 AM
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lol, until I grasped the disease model, I could've written what you did Equus. Look, for the alcoholic it's a bit like Sherlock Holmes' process of elimination. When you're ruled out all other possibilities the one you're left with, no matter how outlandish, must be the right one. TReating my alcoholism as an illness like diabetes rather than a behaviour, allowed me to take responsibility for both cause of the behaviour - the drinking - and it's effects - the immoral and inappropriate behaviour.
And incidentally, telling me I'm "wrong" when quite patently I'm not - since its kept me sober for three years which is more than i ever managed in my life, and it's done so while keeping me happy and prductive - means that you're trying to apply objective language and constructs to subjective experience.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:47 AM
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Okay, who would you rather be in 'recovery'?

A black man living in the bronx, whose friends and environment revolves around gangs and drugs, who mother is a crack head, who can barely read.

Or

A doctor who finished off a half bottle of brandy every evening whilst listening to his favourite operas in his leather chair.

I know which recovery I would find easier...
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:48 AM
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sounds like someones mores are showing.....
so then, if we are going back a century or so. the poor and disabled are also deserving of their fate, as they obviously have disfavored god or they would not be in that predicament. it's their own d^%n fault.
this country was founded by a majority of people who wanted to escape just that kind of thinking. i'll just go on my busy way now. have a GREAT day.....
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:48 AM
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Five the "disease" model has one simple, existential, behavioural, therapeutic purpose - to make the addict accept that what is worng with them will never change and is beyond their control. Now that does not mean that the individual has licence to behave as they want because they're not "in-control" of themselves. It means that they - we - are invited to take complete responsibility, in the moment, for the part we can control - whether or not we use. If any user is serious about changing their life, this is a perfect place to start. With what I can change - whether or not I use - and what I can't - that using always takes me to the same place.

And let's not get into "causes" of alcoholism. No-one has come up with anything definitive. The word "disease" in this context is bordering on metaphorical. What there is a great deal of consistent evidence for is the pathology of active alcoholism. Now the fact that there is a consistent pathology implies a commonality which we can describe with the label "disease", "syndrome", "allegry", whatever. The important thing is - if this is the route one chooses to go down - accepting that one has something in common with other people who seem to share a histroy with you, so that their experience of recovery also has relevance.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tramp
sounds like someones mores are showing.....
so then, if we are going back a century or so. the poor and disabled are also deserving of their fate, as they obviously have disfavored god or they would not be in that predicament. it's their own d^%n fault.
this country was founded by a majority of people who wanted to escape just that kind of thinking. i'll just go on my busy way now. have a GREAT day.....
Tramp - is that aimed at me?
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:55 AM
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because I totally, with great passion, agree with you Tramp!!!!

Wires crossed???
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:56 AM
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The 'disease model' I believe is far to quickly grasped without the effort of learning and as a result has become baby food which no longer resembles what it claims to represent.
Equus - is that aimed at me?

lol.
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