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~IS the Alcoholics Immoral for Just Being an Alcoholic?

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~IS the Alcoholics Immoral for Just Being an Alcoholic?

Old 07-31-2006, 04:56 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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I think I'm going to lose my pizza.
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:04 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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i am sorry, i wasn't aiming at any one. just my general impression of the conversation as a whole.
i apologize if it appeared personal.....
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:09 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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LOL

Mental.
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:39 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by paulmh
Equus - is that aimed at me?

lol.
It's aimed at the model. The study of any disease is quite rightly a painstaking process, by necessity it goes beyond personal experience and relies on broad research, by nature it is far from easy to pass on or grasp.
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by paulmh
And incidentally, telling me I'm "wrong" when quite patently I'm not - since its kept me sober for three years which is more than i ever managed in my life, and it's done so while keeping me happy and prductive - means that you're trying to apply objective language and constructs to subjective experience.
The important thing is recovery. What someone thinks and finds useful to this end is an individuals choice and of course subjective. Three years is awesome, Paul, well done.

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Old 07-31-2006, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tramp
i am sorry, i wasn't aiming at any one. just my general impression of the conversation as a whole.
i apologize if it appeared personal.....
hey pal, wires crossed. peace, 5
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Old 07-31-2006, 07:58 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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For me addiction is just a set of maladaptive behaviors one can change, thru hard work. No disease, no immoral thing, nothing of that all.

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Old 07-31-2006, 08:20 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by equus
It's aimed at the model. The study of any disease is quite rightly a painstaking process, by necessity it goes beyond personal experience and relies on broad research, by nature it is far from easy to pass on or grasp.
The American Medical Association and the substance abuse & mental health services administration. (AMA & SAMHSA respectively) have both stated that addiction is a disease. THey have studied it and it is the accepted conclusion of people far smarter and more trained than I am.

I personally back up paul's assertion that if an addict can accept the disease model of addiction, they can accept the fact that they can't return to using b/c they can't control their disease once it gets kicking. It isn't about avoiding personal responsibility, it's about embracing it. "If I use, I do bad ****, I don't want to do bad ****, I won't use."
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:44 AM
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(AMA & SAMHSA respectively) have both stated that addiction is a disease.
Agreed - I'd even throw in the BMA free of charge!

However their words refer to criteria of what disease means - that's something which struggles to gain any consensus here. Nowhere in the dictionary does disease equate with either blame or absolution.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:22 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Equus, I'll happily give up the word "disease" if it means that much to you. As long as you'll accept that whatever is "wrong" with me or "different" about me is not amenable to change? I'll never be able to drink safely. That's the key part. And that - like a medical condition - is amoral.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:44 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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The fact that many people go from heavy drinking to moderate drinking indicates that it is amenable to change, at least for those people. And your three years suggests that you are amenable to change as well.

I agree that it is really worth removing value-laden words such as 'moral' from the drinking behavior. Driving under the influence is harmful to society. People do hurtful things when they are drunk. The substance abuse is behavior which, in and of itself, isn't moral or immoral.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Blake
The American Medical Association and the substance abuse & mental health services administration. (AMA & SAMHSA respectively) have both stated that addiction is a disease. THey have studied it and it is the accepted conclusion of people far smarter and more trained than I am.
....
It is also the highly disputed conclusion of people who are presumably smarter and more trained that we are. The whole story of how the AMA came to that position is interesting. Suffice to say that the alcohol bureaucracy of the 1950s was entirely dominated by the 12-step philosophy, thanks to friends in high places, and that the AMA relied on those experts in adopting it. All contrarian viewpoints have long been frozen out of the government substance abuse decision-making circles. See peele.net for more info.
And I believe that the psychiatric association has not accepted that term. But I'll do some research to find their official position.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Don S
It is also the highly disputed conclusion of people who are presumably smarter and more trained that we are. The whole story of how the AMA came to that position is interesting. Suffice to say that the alcohol bureaucracy of the 1950s was entirely dominated by the 12-step philosophy, thanks to friends in high places, and that the AMA relied on those experts in adopting it. All contrarian viewpoints have long been frozen out of the government substance abuse decision-making circles. See peele.net for more info.
And I believe that the psychiatric association has not accepted that term. But I'll do some research to find their official position.
but don, Tom Cruise tells me that psyciatry is evil.....how can you deny maverick?
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:30 PM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Blake, I needed that laugh today, thanks
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:50 PM
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Don S said

The fact that many people go from heavy drinking to moderate drinking indicates that it is amenable to change, at least for those people.
Can't let that pass Don. You know it's the case that I considered myself a failure because I couldn't change my drinking patterns to those of "many" people. It does me no good to compare myself to them.
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:52 PM
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And didn't I also read in the SMART recovery piece you posted the other day that "abstinence is often the simplest way"? I'm never going back to a place where my alcoholism - or my AV - is asking the question "why can't you have the odd one?"
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Blake
but don, Tom Cruise tells me that psyciatry is evil.....how can you deny maverick?
LOL!
But I had to look this up, and ironically the lead role in Maverick was played by....
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:11 PM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:18 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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????? Debate Thread ??

Wow...this has my brain swirling....

What ever happened to Keep it simple ???

It's enough to make me drink !!!!


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Old 07-31-2006, 03:59 PM
  # 40 (permalink)  
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THere is only one true maverick....CRUISE BE THY NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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