Grasshopper

Hi,i don't,believe that Buddha is alcoholic.If one brings his teachings,into AA,rooms,why not a host of other,teachings too,like Dr.Phil.Dale Carnigee,Dr.Dyer,,all grand teachings that have nothing at all to with with AA,and its teachings.Of course if one does this,AA and its teachings that have saved many an alcoholics life will lose its focus.From my own experience,i had a sponsor that was teaching me,her beliefs,and this caused me more confusion,and harm,although they worked out for her.I didnt walk,i ran to my BB,and started reading/applying whats in there,and got with the folks who are following what AA teaches,.If one brings about all the others teachings,it will turn out,like the ole saying too many cooks in the kitchen,ya know what happens.Although his teachings in your eyes,relates to the AA teachings,the truth is is that they are not AA recovery programs teachings.,coming from another alocholic.Can we follow whats HAS,saved many an alcoholics life?And not get into out-side issues,no matter how good they sound,or seem to be similar.Im open-minded but when in recovery rooms,im a sticker to what AA teaches.Out-side of the rooms,tell me what ya will.i will decide for myself...lol

Abbadun

Hi Grasshopper

If you removed every suggestion in AA who's source was not about Alcoholism we would be left with a very slim program

There is already a lot of teachings in AA from Religions and Philosophers and Psychologists (Jung, Williams & others). But that is not my point, the suggestions in AA have to make sense before one should accept them, when you are a newcomer go with the flow, but at some point you have to decide if a suggestion makes sense.

AB

doorknob

I want no part of an organization that scapegoats my belief system in order to promote their own. To me, it's not much different than an organization which scapegoats a race or nationality as their primary teachings.

Grasshopper

Hi Doorknob,from my understanding,AA does not oppose,nor does it endorce anyone one persons beliefs.
I know one thing and that for sure,and that is--we dont promote our beliefs.
How long would you stay at a meetings,if im promoting,roman catholic teachings?????.Get my drift,,lol.In the recovery rooms,id probably be left talking to myself,in a momments flat,lol.
Read how it works.And working with other alcoholics,may be helpful.
Back to topic,athiests in AA?.
sure,why not!!!!!

Abbadun

Hi

Grasshopper

To use HP or not to, that is the question and AA teaching go beyond just promoting HP to almost saying that HP is the only way. There is no reason that AA Foundations has to portray the Secular in the negative way they they do to promote HP.

These are issues that Atheists have to deal with before they can go far in AA.

AB

doorknob

No, it doesn't promote any specific religion, but it does promote a 'Truth' that is based on and consistant with a type of religious/spiritual belief known as theism. There is a whole chapter devoted to the conversion of those who's belief system falls outside of this genre. If this wasn't true, atheists would have no issue, and this thread wouldn't exist.

Abbadun

Erased

historyteach

With due respect, I disagree. One CAN choose to ignore anything that you don't like or agree with.
"Take what you need and leave the rest" is just as important a slogan as any other in the program. Maybe even more so!

I've never seen ANY organization that I can agree with 100%.
Nor a person either!
That's because we are all individuals. And every organization is made up of individuals. And the organization's literature is written by individuals.
And all individuals are flawed -- including you and me.

Why would you think you would, or should, agree with AA 100%?
And if you didn't think that, why are you so adament about it being so wrong? You will NEVER agree with any one all of the time, so, AA is no different.

In the end, you've made your point. AA is not nice to atheists. OK. We've heard it.

The question still remains; what suggestions for an atheist in AA.
We know to take what they say about atheists with a grain of salt.
Anything else?

Shalom!

Abbadun

Hi historyTeach

I think I have been basically saying for Atheists that have nothing better available than AA in their area to use it.

The "Take what you need and leave the rest" slogan does not exist in AA or a member could announce that he/she is Atheist or that planned to skip half the Steps and still have their peers accept them as sober people

What does agreeing 100% with AA have to do with discussing the the facts about the program? It does not matter what different people feel about AA the negative statements are still there and actively being taught.

What is wrong about talking about the facts about the program? I truly wish AA had something better to say about Atheists, maybe in the newer stories do but I have yet to find a group that even reads those.

You said

"....In the end, you've made your point. AA is not nice to atheists. OK. We've heard it......"

I say in the end we have heard every point in AA over and over, circles of learning and the teaching of prejudice at the same time.

I have given a lot of suggestions how a Atheist could use AA.

My last point You said "I've never seen ANY organization that I can agree with 100%."

People that use this logic to defend AA's statements act like.... AA is nothing more that social club, a car enthusiasts club, a hunting club or bar dart club.

AA is a program that speaks to people about changing their behavior and their paradigm on the world and other people. The ugliness and prejudice that I focus on has no place in a organization like AA.

AB



With due respect, I disagree. One CAN choose to ignore anything that you don't like or agree with.
"Take what you need and leave the rest" is just as important a slogan as any other in the program. Maybe even more so!

I've never seen ANY organization that I can agree with 100%.
Nor a person either!
That's because we are all individuals. And every organization is made up of individuals. And the organization's literature is written by individuals.
And all individuals are flawed -- including you and me.

Why would you think you would, or should, agree with AA 100%?
And if you didn't think that, why are you so adament about it being so wrong? You will NEVER agree with any one all of the time, so, AA is no different.

In the end, you've made your point. AA is not nice to atheists. OK. We've heard it.

The question still remains; what suggestions for an atheist in AA.
We know to take what they say about atheists with a grain of salt.
Anything else?

Shalom![/QUOTE]

historyteach

I respect your opinion.
I disagree with it.

Nit picking never brought me serenity.

Shalom!

Abbadun

Sorry

I would not call the issues in AA just nit picking more like dinosaur picking

AB

doorknob

What if it were your beliefs that were constantly being denounced and maligned?

shockozulu

You do not know whether her beliefs are being trampled on daily any more than you know if mine are. Please do not make this personal.

Abbadun

hi Alera

I do not think that AA threads on my beliefs all the time either. I just find it sad that every time the old text do address my beliefs it is in a negative fashion. I think that if the text had one good comment about secular people that people would not be so disenfranchised with the program's statements.

AB

doorknob

I wasn't trying to make it personal. I just wondered what Teach would do if presented with the same dilemma. I'm sorry it came off that way.

Abbadun

Hi Doorknob

I understood your question, but I answered Alera anyway.

AB

shockozulu

That is why I work SMART.

Abbadun

Hi

Well SOS and Smart are working their way into New England, but I will use AA until then and even if I do leave AA for another program I would still expect AA and any program's teachings to show some level of decency toward others.

AB

paulmh

Wow this has come on quite a bit.

For me it keeps coming back to - some people expect AA to be perfect and get upset when it isn't. That to me is about not being able to manage one's expectations, not through any fault of the fellowship and its programme.

I know there are AA members who think that the BB is divinely inspired. I don't. I think it's an inspirational book though - a bit like Catch 22, or Great Expectations, or (insert your favourite book here). It's particularly inspirational because it helps me to makes sense of my condition. And it's full of things that I find - if I let myself - infuriating. But it's no more critical of a particular type of atheist - the "savage" one, than it is of religious people of certain types - the "bleeding deacons", the "minister who sighs over the sins of the 20th century". What does AA teach me? That unhealthy emotional practices will always lead me to be unhealthy. And that stands whether someone is intolerant and atheistic, or intolerant and theistic - and I know plenty of both types inside and outside the fellowship. And of course I see the same traits in me. But thankfully I can see progress.

Nothing but a profound intervention by people who knew exactly what was wrong with me, coupled with an equally profound need on my part to save my own life could have saved me from alcoholism. I can still remember how bad I felt. Everything else is just so damned academic.

Morning Glory

I live with this daily. My beliefs changed drastically 15 years ago. I was a member of the church at the time and tried very hard to hang onto that. I was rejected by the church and it was a very painful experience. I was hurt and angry. I tried to talk to them and tried to have them hear me. I couldn't understand why they didn't understand what I was trying to say. My pastor looked at me and told me that my beliefs would only lead me to despair. I had to walk away from the church when I needed the support the most.

I searched hard after that and could not find any place to fit in. I only knew of one other person that shared my beliefs. How could that be in this huge world? I was scared. It made me feel like I was losing my mind at first. The only thing I can compare it to is the Matrix movie when Neo took the red pill and woke up to a new reality. Everyone else was still plugged into their reality and could not see that mine existed.

I quickly learned that trying to change their perspective did not work. My expectations and trying to fit in was only hurting me. I had to learn to walk alone in that area of my life. I had to learn that being different was ok. I had to learn to deal with the isolation. I also had to take myself out of victim mode and realize that it was my choices that were causing the problems. Those choices were important enough to me to pay the price. I also had to learn to allow others to have their own beliefs even if that meant that mine were rejected and me with them.

A few months ago I was searching for a poem for the grief forum here and I accidentally landed on a site where I found others that share my beliefs. It is the first time in 15 years. I can't begin to tell you what that felt like. Those 15 years had lessons for me that I couldn't have learned any other way. I've found wonderful friends here on SR who have helped me though the isolation even though I've never shared any of this.

The solution for me is to deal with my own pain, anger, resentments, and isolation and continue to stand in what I believe regardless of how others feel. I can't change the opinions of others or an organization as large as the church and I can't share without experiencing rejection.