I worked my 2nd step this weekend.
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: California
Posts: 972
this is an excellent thread!
I would have never gotten involved in AA or have done the 12 Steps if it weren't for the fact that Bill W took LSD. I figured anyone who took LSD fully grocked the experience of a spirtual overhaul. Under the influence of LSD it is very common to feel that you personally are a significant part of a much larger picture. It's the concept of the "larger picture" that I used to replace all the Gawd and higher power used in AA/NA
I needed a spiritual overhaul... but I had to it without the drug this time.
The turning point in my experience with the steps was discovering that I was totally self absorbed and I needed to become involved with others and stop living only in my mind. I was loaded for so long that I had forgotten how to be part of the real world. Because my parents were addicts I never learned a comfortable set of rules to live by and amazingly enough I did find them in the 12 Steps. I have a wonderful life now! I have learned another better and more thoughtful way to engage myself in my life even though I have absolutely NO belief in the general concept of any external diety or god.
I would have never gotten involved in AA or have done the 12 Steps if it weren't for the fact that Bill W took LSD. I figured anyone who took LSD fully grocked the experience of a spirtual overhaul. Under the influence of LSD it is very common to feel that you personally are a significant part of a much larger picture. It's the concept of the "larger picture" that I used to replace all the Gawd and higher power used in AA/NA
I needed a spiritual overhaul... but I had to it without the drug this time.
The turning point in my experience with the steps was discovering that I was totally self absorbed and I needed to become involved with others and stop living only in my mind. I was loaded for so long that I had forgotten how to be part of the real world. Because my parents were addicts I never learned a comfortable set of rules to live by and amazingly enough I did find them in the 12 Steps. I have a wonderful life now! I have learned another better and more thoughtful way to engage myself in my life even though I have absolutely NO belief in the general concept of any external diety or god.
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
I believe there are many things that are more powerful than I am. However, I do not believe that they have a 'will,' or intervene in lives of humans.
SMART is a therapy. It has no will, and doesn't act on people. It has no more power to intervene in our lives than a hammer does to build a structure.
I can't think of anyone who thinks that they are the most important, most powerful person in the world, that I would consider sane. That's just silly!
SMART is a therapy. It has no will, and doesn't act on people. It has no more power to intervene in our lives than a hammer does to build a structure.
I can't think of anyone who thinks that they are the most important, most powerful person in the world, that I would consider sane. That's just silly!
I'm an addict.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hyde Park, NY
Posts: 1,201
SMART does have a will, it has a purpose...to help addict get and stay clean. If SMART didn't affect people, why would it still be around? Some people credit SMART with saving their lives, if that isn't a power greater than theirselves working in their lives, then what is? Living by "SMART's will" would be simply applying what is learned in your daily life, using the tools gained, not using.
The "power greater than yourself" talked about in NA has absolutely no restrictions on it, ic and be whatever you want it to be....even a doorknob
...It doesn't have to be this angry father figure in the sky that swoops his hand down to save you from yourself...
The "power greater than yourself" talked about in NA has absolutely no restrictions on it, ic and be whatever you want it to be....even a doorknob
...It doesn't have to be this angry father figure in the sky that swoops his hand down to save you from yourself...
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
1. We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. We came to believe that SMART could restore us to sanity.
3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of SMART as we understood Him.
4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. We admitted to SMART, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. We were entirely ready to have SMART remove all these defects of character.
7. We humbly ask SMART to remove our shortcomings.
8. We made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with SMART as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
2. We came to believe that SMART could restore us to sanity.
3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of SMART as we understood Him.
4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. We admitted to SMART, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. We were entirely ready to have SMART remove all these defects of character.
7. We humbly ask SMART to remove our shortcomings.
8. We made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with SMART as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
I'm an addict.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hyde Park, NY
Posts: 1,201
I'm sure there are a few addicts out there that could benifit from that....but I think that it's best to work one program of recovery, it's less confusing that way....most of us are confused enough as it is....
When it all comes down to it, ALL recovery programs work b/c of spiritual principles (honesty, openmindedness, willingness, patience, tolerance, hope, faith, love, ect...), NA/AA, SMART, et.al. work b/c the person using them has hope that the program can work for them, even if it's just a little glimmer of hope to begin with. Slowly and with time that hope turns in to faith through experience, I KNOW NA works for me b/c it has proven itself in my life that way. I KNOW SMART works for some people b/c it has proven itself in their lives and kept them clean. Both are powers greater than myself, that I MAKE A DECISION to follow (read: turn my will and my life over to...3rd step) or not.
RELIGION has nothing to do with the 12 steps....it can, if you CHOOSE to make it a part, but it will NEVER be a part of my working of the 12 steps.
When it all comes down to it, ALL recovery programs work b/c of spiritual principles (honesty, openmindedness, willingness, patience, tolerance, hope, faith, love, ect...), NA/AA, SMART, et.al. work b/c the person using them has hope that the program can work for them, even if it's just a little glimmer of hope to begin with. Slowly and with time that hope turns in to faith through experience, I KNOW NA works for me b/c it has proven itself in my life that way. I KNOW SMART works for some people b/c it has proven itself in their lives and kept them clean. Both are powers greater than myself, that I MAKE A DECISION to follow (read: turn my will and my life over to...3rd step) or not.
RELIGION has nothing to do with the 12 steps....it can, if you CHOOSE to make it a part, but it will NEVER be a part of my working of the 12 steps.
I'm an addict.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hyde Park, NY
Posts: 1,201
Originally Posted by doorknob
makes more sense to me than doorknob .
To each his own, the proof is in the pudding. B/C of NA and the steps of NA, I am clean today, I do not have a desire to use, and I actually like the person I am for the most part....I have grown a conscience and some self esteeme.....NA goes FAR beyond the dope
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 889
I don't consider SMART a power greater than myself, at all. SMART just offers tools and it's me who opens the toolbox and works with them thru daily life.
And the ocean isn't a power greater than myself, it virtually has no influence on me. There are not many things that aren't explained by science yet and the things that are, well it's cool to think about 'em but I'm kinda confident that science will reveal Earth's last secrets, anyhow. Perhaps a lil sad. But only me controls me, nothing else.
However, I think it's just great you got clean thru NA and have gotten so much out of it, Blake. I also like how you speak up on this forum without being judgemental at all.
Marte
And the ocean isn't a power greater than myself, it virtually has no influence on me. There are not many things that aren't explained by science yet and the things that are, well it's cool to think about 'em but I'm kinda confident that science will reveal Earth's last secrets, anyhow. Perhaps a lil sad. But only me controls me, nothing else.
However, I think it's just great you got clean thru NA and have gotten so much out of it, Blake. I also like how you speak up on this forum without being judgemental at all.
Marte
I'm an addict.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hyde Park, NY
Posts: 1,201
Just something to consider, The toolbox that SMART has given you, did you come up with it yourself, or was it created after much research and from the experiences of those that came before you? Is it something outside of yourself that you have adapted and made your own? Something outside yourself that you have "faith" in?
The ocean has a huge influence on you, the tide, global warming, the fish you eat, the ocean gives life, gives energy, and can take life in scale far exceding that of any single person.....if a tsunami is heading right at you, can you stop it?
I know this is a little abstract, but for someone like me that has a somewhat abstract view of recovery, abstract is where it is at.
only ME controls ME too...NA taught me to take responsibility for my actions.
Yes science can explain a whole lot about life, quatum physics is one of the most interesting field of study going right now as it pertains to the creation, destruction and behavior of matter and energy on a subatomic scale....some really really wierd stuff is being discovered and I too believe that our understanding of the universe will be helped way more in a lab than a church....but that isn't in conflict with the 12 steps, that was the point I was getting at in my original post.
And thanks for the compliment Marte, I know I don't have the market cornered on recovery, different things work for different people....the important thing is that people find what works for them and stop using, ya know?
The ocean has a huge influence on you, the tide, global warming, the fish you eat, the ocean gives life, gives energy, and can take life in scale far exceding that of any single person.....if a tsunami is heading right at you, can you stop it?
I know this is a little abstract, but for someone like me that has a somewhat abstract view of recovery, abstract is where it is at.
only ME controls ME too...NA taught me to take responsibility for my actions.
Yes science can explain a whole lot about life, quatum physics is one of the most interesting field of study going right now as it pertains to the creation, destruction and behavior of matter and energy on a subatomic scale....some really really wierd stuff is being discovered and I too believe that our understanding of the universe will be helped way more in a lab than a church....but that isn't in conflict with the 12 steps, that was the point I was getting at in my original post.
And thanks for the compliment Marte, I know I don't have the market cornered on recovery, different things work for different people....the important thing is that people find what works for them and stop using, ya know?
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Originally Posted by Blake
maybe to you it does, which is a great thing....but for somepeople doorknob makes perfect sense.
I can kinda see the logic of using a group of people or an ideal as a HP, but the inanimate object worship I don't quite get. For me, either is a stretch, given the original intentions of the Steps.
When it all comes down to it, ALL recovery programs work b/c of spiritual principles (honesty, openmindedness, willingness, patience, tolerance, hope, faith, love, ect...), NA/AA, SMART, et.al. work b/c the person using them has hope that the program can work for them, even if it's just a little glimmer of hope to begin with. Slowly and with time that hope turns in to faith through experience, I KNOW NA works for me b/c it has proven itself in my life that way. I KNOW SMART works for some people b/c it has proven itself in their lives and kept them clean. Both are powers greater than myself, that I MAKE A DECISION to follow (read: turn my will and my life over to...3rd step) or not.
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 889
Just something to consider, The toolbox that SMART has given you, did you come up with it yourself, or was it created after much research and from the experiences of those that came before you? Is it something outside of yourself that you have adapted and made your own? Something outside yourself that you have "faith" in?
The ocean has a huge influence on you, the tide, global warming, the fish you eat, the ocean gives life, gives energy, and can take life in scale far exceding that of any single person.....if a tsunami is heading right at you, can you stop it?
I know this is a little abstract, but for someone like me that has a somewhat abstract view of recovery, abstract is where it is at.
only ME controls ME too...NA taught me to take responsibility for my actions.
Yes science can explain a whole lot about life, quatum physics is one of the most interesting field of study going right now as it pertains to the creation, destruction and behavior of matter and energy on a subatomic scale....some really really wierd stuff is being discovered and I too believe that our understanding of the universe will be helped way more in a lab than a church....but that isn't in conflict with the 12 steps, that was the point I was getting at in my original post.
And thanks for the compliment Marte, I know I don't have the market cornered on recovery, different things work for different people....the important thing is that people find what works for them and stop using, ya know?
This is just a really neat discussion I truly enjoy having with you. Marte
Last edited by BSPGirl; 10-23-2006 at 12:58 PM.
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,415
Hiya Paul.
So, for you - "the virtues you mention can be secular as well".
That would be those ones like "honesty, openmindedness, willingness, patience, tolerance, hope, faith, love, ect..."?
I don't know very much about any other programmes of recovery so I can't speak about them. But I can say that AA unlocked the power of these values in an entirely secular way. I didn't "convert", and it seems to me that no-one expected me to. I didn't "find G*d"" and again, no-one held it against me. I found nothing more and nothing less than a way of life. And I suspect that's what Blake is saying - is that once we find a way of life which we fully embrace, strangely we feel much happier and at peace (perhaps because we're "harmonising" with the Higher Power that is Michski's "larger picture"?) - and perhaps that's a principle that's common, rather than all the other stuff which is simply dogma?
I paid lip-service to those values we mentioned, for a very long time. I was an active addict, and nothing mattered but me. Those values came alive for me, and G*d has nothing to do with it. I started to live differently, and slowly slowly those values are practised better in my life one day at a time. And that is better than asserting - "oh, I'm a humanist" and thinking that that sets me apart as superior to the poor deluded believers in the world. We're all just trying to find our tao, right?
PS, Michski, your "larger picture" metaphor resounds with me. My personal metaphor is "mighty river". Anything that lets us escape from the tyranny and the delusion of the self as master of the universe!
So, for you - "the virtues you mention can be secular as well".
That would be those ones like "honesty, openmindedness, willingness, patience, tolerance, hope, faith, love, ect..."?
I don't know very much about any other programmes of recovery so I can't speak about them. But I can say that AA unlocked the power of these values in an entirely secular way. I didn't "convert", and it seems to me that no-one expected me to. I didn't "find G*d"" and again, no-one held it against me. I found nothing more and nothing less than a way of life. And I suspect that's what Blake is saying - is that once we find a way of life which we fully embrace, strangely we feel much happier and at peace (perhaps because we're "harmonising" with the Higher Power that is Michski's "larger picture"?) - and perhaps that's a principle that's common, rather than all the other stuff which is simply dogma?
I paid lip-service to those values we mentioned, for a very long time. I was an active addict, and nothing mattered but me. Those values came alive for me, and G*d has nothing to do with it. I started to live differently, and slowly slowly those values are practised better in my life one day at a time. And that is better than asserting - "oh, I'm a humanist" and thinking that that sets me apart as superior to the poor deluded believers in the world. We're all just trying to find our tao, right?
PS, Michski, your "larger picture" metaphor resounds with me. My personal metaphor is "mighty river". Anything that lets us escape from the tyranny and the delusion of the self as master of the universe!
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Originally Posted by paulmh
And that is better than asserting - "oh, I'm a humanist" and thinking that that sets me apart as superior to the poor deluded believers in the world.
To Life!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 9,293
Marte,
I'm really glad you made that exception at the end!
I think this is a great discussion. And it clearly shows that there does NOT have to be acrimony between the secularists and the 12 steppers.
We ALL have the same goal.
Again, anyone who says theirs is the only way, or the highway, whether secular or 12 stepper, speaks more about themselves than they do about their program of recovery.
Thanks for a great discussion. What a bit of sharing honestly can bring forth, huh?
Shalom!
I'm really glad you made that exception at the end!
I think this is a great discussion. And it clearly shows that there does NOT have to be acrimony between the secularists and the 12 steppers.
We ALL have the same goal.
Again, anyone who says theirs is the only way, or the highway, whether secular or 12 stepper, speaks more about themselves than they do about their program of recovery.
Thanks for a great discussion. What a bit of sharing honestly can bring forth, huh?
Shalom!
To Life!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 9,293
I can't think of anyone who thinks that they are the most important, most powerful person in the world, that I would consider sane. That's just silly!
Blake, with all good will, one cannot give a human attribute to an inanimate object. SMART - or any other program of recovery - does NOT have a "will" of it's own. It's a program; a thing. You are personifying it by claiming it to have it's own will.
People have a will to become clean and sober. They apply that program, SMART or any other, to fulfill their will.
But, I completely agree that religion is NOT an aspect of the 12 steps unless we make it one.
Shalom!
I'm an addict.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hyde Park, NY
Posts: 1,201
Teach does a rock have a will? It sits there and will not move untill an outside force acts upon it, if it is in motion, it will remain in motion till acted on by an outside force. It's not a cognitive will but forces such as inertia and gravity, laws of physics, are sort of a "will of the universe"....maybe there are other forces that we haven't quantified yet, coincidence, fate, karma, destiny, ect...
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