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Old 07-04-2006, 06:14 AM
  # 81 (permalink)  
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Hi,we sit in a circle and suppose,
when the knowing that God is,
is inside us that knows,for sure,that God is.Quiet the mind.Be silent.
Your making ,limited,judgements,on God,what you think He should and shouldnt do.Neither you nor i know the bigger plan,His plans.If you or i were meant to know things,then we would.God does work in mysteries ways.My belief.There are many misteries,out there,that no human,can explain away.Although they do make feable attempts,to expalin.Scientists,usually change what they think they know for sure,about every 15-20 years.Very few things,things,they have stuck to.One they have stuck with,is yes this earth is round.lol.Which is phyicall.But inside of folks,they keep changing,what they think they know,whats going on inside of that person.I live in knowing that i know not all the answers.This gives me freedom.Im not limited,in my thinking,or what i think should be.Ive seen and been a part of many miralces,of others as well as myself.Folks, scratch their heads,trying to figure things out.Folks, think,they have got to know and have all the answers,that we will never process.ever.There is a reason for this.Life IS,a mystery.I cannot judge God,on my limited human,mind.For if i am able to,them am i,playing a god?God does not have to preform,as i think that He needs to.But ego,says that He does.
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Old 07-04-2006, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by clancy
If God was all knowing, he would have known she was there, if he was all powerful, the very LEAST he could have done was kill her quickly...if he was good,he would have.
I think I have written about this before....My H is Greek and once while visiting his mom I was reading in her Greek to English bible and I looked up the word "suffer" in the concordance I was really baffled by the definition given:

suffer: to allow


This really blew my mind and for months I looked at others suffering with the desire to understand what they maybe allowing. I do volunteer work with hospice so it has given me a great oppertunity to see the suffering of the final days. I have not seen one person who did not struggle and cling to thier life while they work out their lives and struggle with their will to live. Usually they start talking with loved ones who have passed on before them and start refusing water(food is usually the first thing they start rejecting) they do seem to reach a point of surrender and often seem to feel great joy in this.

I believe God is Almighty but our will is onething that God respects in all of us and considers sacred. I belive suffering in all of its forms is about allowing God's will. That suffering ends in death because our will combined with our fears is so strong that in the end of our struggling not even God cannot save our phyiscal life because we are unable to surrender to the miracle of living. If our phyiscal life is one of surrender and letting go I believe death can be more gentle...

One thing I would like to say is if any of you do decide to take your loved one off of life support which is a highly personal decission please do allow the person in question to have water until such time that they reject it themselves.

There are many people dying alone in Nursing Homes there are many reasons they are alone but it seems that the most common reason is that they have outlived their whole family. These people do need comfort and human touch and if anyone is looking for some good volunteer work visit the dying and your local state ran nursing home. It will change how you look at your life and the lives of your loved ones.
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Old 07-04-2006, 07:03 AM
  # 83 (permalink)  
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You still accept he is all powerful and benign though
I *think* you mean to say all knowing, here. Am I right?

My concept of G*D is not of an entity sitting above passing out rewards and punishments as "he" looks donw below at us making judgements. Quite the contrary.

G*D, to me, is like a collective consciousness. It's a collective of all people's consciousness, at least; perhaps all living, sentient beings. It may or may not include those who lived before, (I think so), and those who will come to live, (unsure here.)

G*D therefore has knowledge of what is and probably what is possible. (The Greeks and Hebrews believed there is nothing new under the sun.)

And because I believe people are basically altruistic, (thanks, Don! I would have said "good" before, but, like this word better! ) I do think G*D is benign, (meaning "good and of kind heart.)

But, all powerful? No. This collective consciousness, (that does lie deep within us and we can benefit from, if we are still ), cannot stop me from doing evil. Only people can do that.

I'll use an example, albiet, it's a rather unusual one.
The case of Shlindler, as in the movie, Shlindler's List.
He is considered a "hero" by many for saving many Jews from the Holocaust. However, this view ignores the fact that Shlinder and others like him allowed the Holocaust to occure. If it weren't for him and others who cooperated, Hitler couldn't not have achieved his plans and 11 million people would not have been brutaly murdered. Not to mention the countless who died in the war!

In short, Shlindler, with his behaviors, allowed the Holocaust, a horrific period in the world's history.
Likewise, his behavior following his change of heart saved lives and helped end the war.

*WE* have the power to do right or wrong. To be benign or evil. And to treat others in those manners. Ghandi told us how to stop Hilter. Non cooperation with evil. There was a choice at the time. Shindler choose the way that made him rich and gave him the good life.

G*D is not in charge of our behaviors because G*D is NOT all powerful. G*D couldn't stop Shindler nor Hitler. Only we can. And we do so when we listen to that collective consciousness - to G*D.

Again, this is only *my* take on G*D. It works for me. I have no need or desire to try and *prove* this to others,or to convince others that my version is the correct version. It's been a lifetime coming together; it'll probably change more as I grow further in my own limited understanding.

So, no, G*D isn't powerful. But, we have more power than we can possibly imagine, I think. We just are not tuned into the possibilities.

Hope this makes some sense to you, and that I didn't give more than you asked for!

Shalom!

Last edited by historyteach; 07-04-2006 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 07-04-2006, 07:27 AM
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God is all powerful except to our own will. I believe people do live forever. It is their belief in how they will spend forever that shapes their experience.

Scientific definition of God= energy neither created or destroyed.

I D DOUBLE DOG DARE anyone at all to make a comment on the sentence above. I have written this many times here very few comments I think only one person did(((eddieZ)))
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Old 07-04-2006, 07:33 AM
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Splendra, your definition of G*D is the first law of thermodynamics. I think that's far to limiting for G*D. Just my opinion.
If you'd have just said Energy, I could buy that definition. It's in tune with mine!

But, this sentence contradicts itself.
God is all powerful except to our own will
.
As soon as you used the word, "except," you negate the "all powerful" part of the statement about G*D. With that word, G*D is no long "all powerful."
It's like adding a "but" to an apology. That single word undermines everything else said.

Shalom!
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Old 07-04-2006, 08:59 AM
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i donn know teach our will is just like the almighty's and so powerful. We use our own will to create our world. For me anyway my world looks exactly how I expect it to look.

English has laws that have little to do with universal or physical law. English was not my first language and it is a language that really messes with my dyslexia on ocassion...

shoot me for looking at the 10 commandments in this secular section for a minute

but...what if the 10 commandments meant

thou can not

rather than...

thou shall not

what if it is not impossible to do these things that the 10 commandments speak of? That can not was replaced somewhere down the road with shall not. Wouldn't that be weird if we understood it that way instead of the way we do...Or, what if it really means we can do these things??? Is it because of how powerful we are?? Have I broken any laws here be they english or universal?

If we are eternal death is not possible only our fear of death is possible. I wish to create life even if it looks like to others I am dying...I believe I am alive and some part of me will stay that way forever.
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Old 07-04-2006, 09:04 AM
  # 87 (permalink)  
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The Bear and the Atheist


"What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!" an Atheist said to himself.

As he was walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly charge toward him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing.

He ran even faster, so scared that tears were coming to his eyes.

He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer.

His heart was pumping frantically and he tried to run even faster.

He tripped and fell to the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up, but saw the bear, right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him. At that instant the Atheist cried out "Oh my God!"

Time stopped.
The bear froze.
The forest was silent.
Even the river stopped moving.

As a bright light shone above the man, a voice came out of the sky, "You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"

The Atheist looked directly into the light. "It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years, but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian?"

"Very well," said the voice.

The light went out.
The river ran again.
And the sounds of the forest resumed.

And then the bear dropped his right paw..... brought both paws together, bowed his head and spoke: "Lord, for this food which I am about to receive, I am truly thankful."




http://www.mamarocks.com/atheist.htm
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Old 07-04-2006, 10:09 AM
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Haha atumn well timed!....the top of my head was just about to come off!

I cant think about God any more today!!
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Old 07-04-2006, 10:26 AM
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I think G*D has a sense of humor too!

Happy Fourth of July, everyone!
L'Chaim!
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Old 07-04-2006, 03:57 PM
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Well I just had a nap...and I was thinking about what you said teach, about God perhaps not being all powerful.....I was turning that over in my mind.

Im really suprised you can accept the idea of a God who is not all powerful. Surely his power is part of what makes him GOD? I was thinking back to the example of the poorl little girl trapped in the flood waters again, and I thought well maybe God didnt have the power to stop the disaster, or rescue the child,but surely, SURELY he has the power to gather her soul up to him and take her out of that horror, surely just that? I mean he made the world right? he raised a little girl from the dead in the bible didnt he? Do you believe in the bible?

A God who is so impotent that he cannot even do that simple merciful thing, how can he be a God?! what DOES he do now then? has he lost the powers he had in the Bible? how can you have an impotent God??

Then I was thinking well, that wee girl probably wasnt a christian...she was probably a muslim....so I guess there was no point God saving her,or being merciful because (I HATE to think this) he was going to let her go to hell anyhow,for not being a christian.What an apalling thought.

But Im surely if so then God fails on being GOOD too?

but maybe it dosent apply to children, hell? if so, when does a child stop being a child? 12? 15? 18? 21?

Just the thoughts that were going thrrough my head as I dozed...I dontknow how you can be a christian/religious and not want proper answers to stuff like this, yet the answers are always so vague....faith..mysterious ways... what do you think teach/others?
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Old 07-05-2006, 05:32 AM
  # 91 (permalink)  
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Good morning Clancy Tree.

Originally Posted by clancy
I was thinking back to the example of the poorl little girl trapped in the flood waters again, and I thought well maybe God didnt have the power to stop the disaster, or rescue the child,but surely, SURELY he has the power to gather her soul up to him and take her out of that horror, surely just that?
Some people believe that when someone dies a painful, tragic death, their soul is removed from them before the suffering becomes unbearable.

but maybe it dosent apply to children, hell? if so, when does a child stop being a child? 12? 15? 18? 21?
I have heard age 12.
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Old 07-05-2006, 05:41 AM
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In the case of this child (it was an assignment i had at school I had to stuudy an example of photojournalism, it was this little girl trappedin flood water) her soul didnt leave her body, no she was concious and suffering, crying out to God and her parents for THREE DAYS until she finally had a heart attack and slipped beneath the water. it was horrible and her face haunts me.

I thought it was almost as if 'there is no God' was written on her forehead at the time.

12!! I was a BABY at 12!!
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Old 07-05-2006, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Don S
So he asked me 'if you knew you were dying and had only five minutes to live, wouldn't you want to talk to a priest and convert so you'd be saved?'
An interesting question!
I wonder if say, an Atheist were dying in the hospital, and the hospital staff sent a priest or minister to deliver the last rites, how it would make the individual feel? Obviously it would depend on the person, but it would seem that it would disturb their peace to a degree, regardless of their level of acceptance of dying. A person's senses and awareness are extremely heightened prior to death (sans morphine). No one is ever really prepared, I don't think..... well, I know that to be untrue actually, having seen people beg to die. Oh well.... just turning thoughts over.

I replied 'if I knew I was dying, I'd hope to spend my remaining minutes comforting the living who might be saddened by my death.'
That's so beautiful, and I believe you too. It's really amazing how people differ in their perspectives. Like I said earlier though, absolutes seem to make a big difference. I once saw an Atheist go through the days leading up to and which he knew would end in his death, and he was completely accepting. However, at the moment of his death he was rendered unconscious with medications. One of his daughters - who is an avid Catholic - turned down an offer for him to receive his last rites, which I thought was very unselfish of her.

ps--thanks, Autumn! ('Ice Man'?!?)
Yes, you're welcome. I thought I saw Dan refer to you as Ice Man a couple of times.....

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Old 07-05-2006, 06:06 AM
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You know, I really like what Splendra said about language.
Thou CAN not
is much different than
Thou SHALL not.

The latter implies we are able to, but, should not for other reasons.
The former means it's impossible.

Thou can not kill...lie...commit adultry....etc

Imagine....

What this example speaks to is the construct of language...it's ability to create a reality and its limits too. The eskimos have like 36 words for snow, each one denotating a different type of snow. I can think of maybe 6 used here in New England. Different realities created by language. It's all in the construction of words.

And I think, Clancy, that is the difficulty you are experiencing. You have a Christian construct of G*D and are *stuck* within those limits of the construction.

Because G*D isn't "all powerful" does not mean G*D is impotent. The two are not synonomous. G*D's power, in my construct of G*D, is not the physical power you envision. No, G*D's not able to sweep down and save that child. Nor is G*D able to end the pain my mom is experiencing daily, that has her hospitalized right now. But, G*D has the power to move you with that image. To move me. To move others to do rescue missions....to create....to invent....to expore....to heal...

I could NOT love/honor/admire a G*D that COULD save that child...
...and didn't.
And I wouldn't want to.

And that whole idea of the child being a different religion...therefore being damned?
What could anyone revere about a god like that? A punishing, hateful god that condems the innocent because of her parents choice of religion; of their history and culture?

Most Western religions require that you belong to that religion, or be damned.
I'm not a Christian, Clancy. I'm Jewish. Jews don't follow that idea. One is not required to convert to Judaism to be saved.

I follow the stories of Torah, (what some call the "Old Testament.") However, the stories in the Torah and the New Testament exist to teach a lesson. It's the story of humankind's struggle with G*D, like Jacob's G*D wrestle. (Like what we are doing right now!) I do not take the stories literally. They are moral stories. They tell *a* truth; not necessarily *the* truth.

I don't believe G*D wrote the Torah, the New Testament, the Koran or any other religious script for that matter. I believe it was G*D inspired. That's G*D's power. To move those men and woman who wrote the stories of G*D, sharing them with us over the mellinium. To enter each one of us; to speak to each of us personally and move us. That still small voice within -- is very powerful indeed.

So, G*D is quite powerful. Just not in the way power has been constructed over the years. Loose that construct of power, and a newer, more expansive vision emerges. That's power.

Under this new construct, the answers are not so vague afterall, now are they?

Again, please understand I am sharing *my* understanding of G*D. It's not a contest, and I have no need to engage in one. I'm simply trying to share my understandings in answer to your questions. Hope it helps!

Shalom!
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Old 07-05-2006, 06:08 AM
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Oh, yea. In Judaism, a person reaches age of reason at 13.
Hense, the bar/bat Mitzvah. One can now lead the congregation in Torah study.
Shalom!
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Old 07-05-2006, 07:44 AM
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Arg,having trouble with this quoting thing!

Anyway! what I wanted to say teach, was you are right, the way you paint the picture, things dont seem so vague or so bad....

I realised you wernt a 'born again' but something else...jewish eh? I dont know alot about juudaism, only that they believe in the old testament, and have holidays like peseah (sp!) and Rosh Hashana and Tisha b'av and all that stuff. Id like to know more, because the way you speak makes sense to me..

I realise I have a thing about christians....as a child I was TERRIFIED of them, and if someone said they were a christian I was frozen with fear...now that fear has turned to repulsion I guess....People like George Bush and Tony Blair dont help!

My upringing in a very left childrens home (vegetarian and marxist- leaning) didnt help I guess. The constructs of your childhood are hard to shake off.....today I try hard to understand them, having even done an alpha course! But it confirmed my worst fears! Ah,life is too strange...its hard to find your way, a meaning to your existentence... this place is amazing though, I am learning so much here...thank you all xx
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Old 07-05-2006, 08:00 AM
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This pretty much explains my position, we are all energy and energy cannot be destroyed only changed;;; having said that I have so many other questions concening sacred geometry and quantum physics here's my 2 cents.
There is Oneness in all the Universe. Every atom in existence vibrates with the energy of the Source of All Things. Before there was time, before forms or dualities, there was only the One. And now, after eons of time with life manifested in innumerable species of animated forms, every discipline of human endeavor, from physics to psychology to mythology to religion, tells us that the separateness we perceive is an illusion and again we recognize that all is One.

This is the spiritual teaching of many of the world’s religions, including Hinduism, and Taoism. This is the enlightenment of the great teachers, such as Jesus the Christ and Buddha. Philosophers from the time of Plato and Aristotle have spoken of these truths and of the plane of reality that lies behind the three dimensions perceptible to our five basic senses. Psychologists, such as Carl Jung, have described the “collective unconscious,” which is shared by all of us. Many writers have helped us elevate our thinking by going beyond the status quo. Ralph Waldo Emerson declares that, “There is one mind common to all individual men.” Ernest Holmes contends that, “There is no such thing as an individual anything in the universe.” Poet William Blake asserts that, “If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear as it is, infinite.” This worldview has now been corroborated by the most unlikely of sources, the world’s physicists. Science has discovered that objective reality does not exist and that causality created experimentally is not a valid reality. Rumi, the Sufi mystic said, “Men’s minds perceive second causes, but only prophets perceive the action of the First Cause.”

There is a place where energy becomes matter. Matter and energy, as Einstein showed in his famous E=mc2 equation, are one. At the subatomic level is the portal from which matter is born and to which that energy ultimately returns. And because c=the speed of light=186,000 miles per second, then c2 is a huge number which means that even the tiniest mass carries a significant amount of energy. The Nobel Prize winning physicist David Bohm states, the world is an "unbroken wholeness"; everything is non-locally interconnected. We need to learn to perceive holistically because our world and the entire universe is actually interconnected. It is erroneous to continue to perceive our world as a conglomeration of separate, unrelated parts.

This book explores Oneness as a form of consciousness, as a force in the universe, and as the Ultimate Reality. It offers a variety of perspectives from a number of different disciplines. Buddha states that God “has many forms of transfiguration and incarnation, and can manifest Himself in manifold ways according to the ability of each person.” Because humans can exist with infinite varieties of understanding, a single image of God, or notion of God would never be sufficient. Each person will relate to a different aspect of God, depending on who that person is and where that person is in his or her journey of knowingness. The instant we define God, in a painting, writing, in scripture or song, we place artificial constraints upon the boundlessness of Being.

With this in mind, the examination of Oneness is approached in many ways, as seen by religious leaders, philosophers, psychologists, writers, and physicists. This will allow the reader to find one or more interpretations that resonate and that convey understanding. If at first some of these references appear unrelated, it will soon become clear that they are in fact connected (like everything else) and contribute to our new expanded view of reality.

For example, J.D. Salinger offers us this perspective in Teddy: “I was six when I saw that everything was God, and my hair stood up, and all,” Teddy said. “It was on a Sunday, I remember. My sister was only a tiny child then, and she was drinking her milk, and all of a sudden I saw that she was God and the milk was God. I mean, all she was doing was pouring God into God, if you know what I mean.”

This book also presents original ideas concerning the implications of Oneness in an attempt to integrate All That Is with our perceptions of our reality, our consciousness, our connectedness, our centeredness, our experiences and our intuitive notion of what is. This is distinctly different and beyond what many of us have been taught growing up, and apart from the noise, that saturates our senses every day.

There are yearnings of the human soul that are common to all people. We share a longing for greater understanding, a need to answer questions of meaning:

“Why am I here?”
“What is the meaning of life?”
“Is there something beyond this life?”
“Who, or what, is God?”
“Who am I?”
Some of us have more time to ponder these questions than others. However, we are all subject to the soul’s questioning.

We may confront these questions in middle age after years of neglect or distraction. The questions had been there all along, but we were racing to “get ahead,” to “build a business,” “start a career,” or “raise a family.” But weren’t there always times of reflection along the way where these very questions surfaced?

Added to our innate need to know, the Universe stimulates other curiosities with countless mysteries that fill our everyday world. They are dangled before us in a mischievous way:

The waves that relentlessly pound the shore
The creatures of the sea that jump out of the water
The rabbit, fox, and deer that appear unexpectedly and then suddenly are gone
The migration of birds and their “V” formation in flight
A chameleon changing color
The metamorphosis of a butterfly
A spider’s web
A firefly’s glow
The circular vortex when water runs down a drain (and its change of direction on the other side of the world!)
A rainbow
The coming and going of the sun and the moon each day
The billions of stars that fill the night sky
A solar eclipse
A shooting star; a comet; a meteorite shower
The dramatic changing color of the autumn landscape
The rebirth of color in the spring
A pristine blanket of snow which unifies all things
How do these things work? What laws do they obey? What clocks do they follow? And is there some unifying principle, some holistic worldview that makes sense of it all?

The nature of Oneness will always appear to be a paradox. God is in simple things we understand; yet the boundlessness of God transcends understanding. We have words like omnipotent and omniscient to describe the Oneness, and yet our language is not designed to speak of things in other dimensions and in unseen worlds. Nevertheless, we know from all of those who have gone before us that it is possible to know the great I Am, and to achieve Oneness.



2002 Doug Coulter. All Rights Reserved
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Old 07-05-2006, 08:15 AM
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Fabulous post Indigo! And so beautifully written. Thanks very much for sharing.

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Old 07-05-2006, 08:58 AM
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Wow, beautiful and profound Indy.Makes so much sense. How did you come to these ideas..over a long time? it all sounds beautifully thought out and organised. I shall print this out and read it more deeply.I find it easier to read hard copy for some reason.xx
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Old 07-05-2006, 10:22 AM
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Doug Coulter wrote it I just happen to identify with it....to me it makes perfect sense.

Glad you both enjoyed it.

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