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Old 07-03-2006, 05:57 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
alconaut
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Originally Posted by clancy
Hey, I dont think its actually healthy to have a totally rigid belief system autumn...

I also think everyone fears death no matter what they say..if you said to someonewho said they didnt fear death that they were going to die tommorow, they would almost certainly be afraid....its part of the human condition to fear death, it helps us stay alive! It sounds cool to say you dont fear death, but I dont really think that many folk can say that in ALL honesty. xxclanc
Well sure..... I agree that everyone fears death to an extent, but I believe that those who have chosen a theory about dying with absolutes are probably more comfortable with the outcome of death. I'm just a paranoid freak, period.

You know Don, if you're reading, I saw what you wrote in the "Definitions" thread about existentialism, and just because you said it doesn't matter, it intrigued me more and I have been doing a little reading. Am I an existentialist? I don't know yet..... perhaps? Aren't existentialists neurotic paranoid freaks?
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Old 07-03-2006, 05:59 AM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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Oh yeah, do it! Only be careful! I had the film ripped out of my camera once when photographing in Soho (red light district) I was pretty young at the time... actually the best way to do it is set up shots with mates...then you wont get in to trouble...it wont be candid tho...I have a really neat littlecamera called a 'coolpix S4' which has a twisting lens so you can take snached shots with the camera in your lap....gots some great stuff with it...I collect cameras too,lol.xx
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Old 07-03-2006, 06:07 AM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Best! I knew you were a gambler at heart... playing the odds, eh? (grin)

I love Clancy's take on this stuff... and I KNOW I have shared Best's implication of "covering all the bases".

I have come to believe that life is a series of lessons... both in the present lifetime and in the idea of multiple lives. And that old rule of "do it again until you get it right" is also in effect.

I keep getting "held" back... this time I seem to have discovered a "resource room" here at SR.

Lots of good thoughts here....
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Old 07-03-2006, 06:58 AM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BigSis
I have come to believe that life is a series of lessons... both in the present lifetime and in the idea of multiple lives. And that old rule of "do it again until you get it right" is also in effect.

I keep getting "held" back... this time I seem to have discovered a "resource room" here at SR.

Lots of good thoughts here....
I agree BigSis..... hey! Who can't use a big sis? Thanks for your input.

This is a fantastic forum..... or "resource room" as you put it. I'm pleased with the contributions to this thread..... I'm like the proverbial kid in a candy shop, no doubt. I sooooo so missed out on college philosophy. I just love learning..... I wish I had made different choices earlier in life so I weren't so far behind in all this. Oh well, no matter. I'm happy to be a student.

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Old 07-03-2006, 07:17 AM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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Best

I do want you to know that I very much value your opinions. I have no idea if perhaps you were an Atheist/secularist at any time or had formal/informal education regarding the subject of an Atheist's view of death. It was wrong for me to just selectively announce who I want to respond to this thread. My intent here still is to try to pare down as much as possible and really simplify rather than complicate - but that's my issue due to my current level of understanding and ability to absorb. It's like the extreme difficulty I have talking on the phone and listening to someone in the background...... kind of like being in the process of ordering a pizza and requesting a list of certain items, and having someone in the background saying the list backward or asking for different items entirely, like anchovies. Then too, there's the whole Christian end of it as well - I'd be a liar if I said it wasn't a factor. I'm a little disillusioned.

I wasn't really happy with Dakotaboyd's post either, but I asked for secularists opinions. Even though his post seemed harsh to my ears, it's his reality.

Anyway Best, I'm really sorry..... please feel free to contribute as relates to the topic.

xo
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Old 07-03-2006, 07:38 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Slacker.....

Originally Posted by slacker
Haha, your post about the monument to yourself was quite funny to me.
I'm glad you liked it. I'm still contemplating a larger-than-life self-portrait, lol. Yeah, the monument was more an entertaining thought I had than a serious one.

I used to say that for my burial, I wanted all my assets used to buy a small piece of land (and pay the property taxes for 100 years, after which time I will be a local landmark), on which a very large statue of myself will be placed, preferably with my mummified body inside.
Omg..... that film clip of the Arabic people and American soldiers pulling down Saddam's statue just rolled through my head, lol.

I also freely admit that so long as my grandious plans are acknowledged by my family and friends as genuine, they can do whatever they wish with my corpse as I won't know any better. So long as I remain convinced that my plan will be carried out, I can enjoy all the benefits of such a great monument-to-myself during my lifetime.
That's cool slacker. I like that idea. I see what you mean, too, as relates to practical arrangements as well.

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Old 07-03-2006, 07:45 AM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Knobster!
Originally Posted by doorknob
I could make up any fictional version of ultimate reality and say "what if?"
What are your thoughts about death and dying?

Do you think if you really took a closer look at the finality of death you might lean more toward a healthier lifestyle?
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Old 07-03-2006, 08:09 AM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by best
and what if you are wrong? Just something more to think on.
Assuming this was directed at me, what if I am right? If I am, then all the praying and stuff to a "god" will sure seem a waste of time. If I am wrong, c'est la vie... I live my life with morals, conscience and principles... including do no harm to others... If I am wrong, and there is a god, then I will just have to trust that I will be judged based on my actions. Gee wait, that would be "belief"... lol.

Peace, Levi
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Old 07-03-2006, 08:16 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by leviathon
Assuming this was directed at me.....
Well gee Levi, this has me wondering now if Best's post was directed at me and not Dakotaboyd, lol.

Great post anyway..... it pretty much sums it up for me too.

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Old 07-03-2006, 10:41 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BigSis
Best! I knew you were a gambler at heart... playing the odds, eh? (grin)
I don't gamble, I only work with absolutes *grin*
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:43 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by best
All of them. My own thoughts included.
Thanks! The reason I asked is that I couldn't tell if you were replying to someone specific. The general question, 'what if you're wrong' (about salvation, death, the nature of god, etc.) has caused me to try and remember the old rationalization for belief that I remember reading about a long time ago. I think it was from the Middle Ages, and I can't remember whose priniciple it was, but the idea is that we might as well convert or espouse beliefs, because that way if there IS a god and if there IS a heaven, we will get in.

It's sort of a primitive theological construct -- I don't think you can espouse something you don't truly believe in a way that an all-knowing god would be fooled by -- but I've heard it more than once from folks who were concerned about my welfare after death.

There is a young man that I mentor, and we talk a lot about issues like this. He is returning to his Catholic roots, and this is causing him concern about my afterlife. So he asked me 'if you knew you were dying and had only five minutes to live, wouldn't you want to talk to a priest and convert so you'd be saved?'
An interesting question!

I replied 'if I knew I was dying, I'd hope to spend my remaining minutes comforting the living who might be saddened by my death.'

ps--thanks, Autumn! ('Ice Man'?!?)
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:45 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Autumn
I do want you to know that I very much value your opinions. I have no idea if perhaps you were an Atheist/secularist at any time or had formal/informal education regarding the subject of an Atheist's view of death.
All the above at one time.
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:48 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Autumn
Here we have Don S.... Who are you, anyway? Lol.
...
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:58 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Don S

It's sort of a primitive theological construct -- I don't think you can espouse something you don't truly believe in a way that an all-knowing god would be fooled by -- but I've heard it more than once from folks who were concerned about my welfare after death.
Great reasoning.

Per what is written...
We will all be judge according to what we have recieved and what we did with such. The inner nature of man is to seek where we came from, so for those who have never heard God's message, they could, as Abraham did, seek God to the degree of understanding they have. Not hearing and seeking on a minimal basis is a long shot because even in the most remote areas of the world, the people are guided from birth by the rules of their own people, so they would need break away from the norm and seek on their own if they were ever to find the truth to an acceptable degree.
The reasoning behind self seeking and finding God would be that we live in a world that is filled with awe and wonder. Such awe and wonder would have us all ask the questions... Where did I come from and how did I get here? With the asking of such, a journey of learning may start.
I don't like the question I asked above...what if we are all wrong... Such a question can lead to a fear of the unknown or a fear of the what if.
I live on hopes and faith that God will do what He has promised to do...If I am wrong, I would be in no different position then any one else. If I am right... well *Smile*
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:58 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by best
and what if you are wrong?

Just something more to think on.
I don't think it would matter, unless it turns out that god is vengeful and punishing toward those that did not follow him during life. That would seem a bit unfair on god's part given the number of religions that have existed throughout history. What are the odds that any given person would follow the one true faith?
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Old 07-03-2006, 11:20 AM
  # 56 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Leo_the_Cat
What are the odds that any given person would follow the one true faith?
That would be easy... Follow God's guidance and word and stay away from religions.
As far as being vengeful or not... If my rules for my house are not followed, why should I allow you into my house? You would make a choice...follow my rules or stay out. God's rules for getting into his house are a lot easier to follow then my rules are to get into my house.
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Old 07-03-2006, 01:07 PM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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But you are a human ( messy, complex and imperfect -i know you wont take this personally) God is supposed to be perfect. The rules to get in Jesus(i.e Gods)house arent easy - you have to accept he is 'the way the truth and the life,and you must forsake all others...otherwise you not only dont get in, you burn for all eternity...(I know not all christians believe that - just the fundamentalists?) Those arent easy terms...easier enough for someone born in the American mid west say, but ni on impossible for someone born into fundamentalist islamic society...or someone deep in the bush who knows nothing of the gospel...or someone who is born deaf/mute/braindamaged...then J.C's terms become almost impossible...but still they burn? This dosent sound like a 'perfect' beings idealogy...(forgive me if I have it wrong though wont you?) The perfect being would be too full of love to let hell exisxt...would understand how impossible it might be for some people to accept J.C ...would welcome them lovingly into his house whoever they were...no?
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Old 07-03-2006, 01:28 PM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Also Best, if it is okay to ask, and im sure folk mustask you this all the time,so sorry if im being tedious, but Jesus/God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniecient and benign right? so why does he let people die in such ghastly circumstances? why do the worst diasters hit the poorest areas? A christian girl died in my town after a ghastly attack, in which her friend heard her cry out to God...why wasnt he there? Was the attackers free will more important than her right to life? how can he be good, all powerful and all knowing and let this happen?
Sorry if these questions seem impertinent and confrontational!

I figured you must have asked them yourself once and gotten a answer that satisfied you otherwise you woouldnt have become a Christian?

Thanks for bearing with me, sorry if the question seems rude.I hope not, id really like to know...xx clanc
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Old 07-03-2006, 01:36 PM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Hey gang,

Sorry I'm late to the party.

Death and dying are particularly intriguing subjects to me, thanx for starting this thread. My interest is strictly personal, I have no education or degrees in any of the relevant disciplines. All I have is a little bit of experience.

I have died 5 times so far. Officially. Heart stopped, EMT's or ER docs were about to write me off and surprise! Rusty ol' body cranked up, sputtered and I'm still here. There's a nasty little disease running thru my body and the docs have no clue why I'm still alive. Never mind how to fix the problem.

No Hollywood special effects for me. I saw no "white lights" or angels or souls of the dearly departed. Maybe I wasn't dead long enough. I have no idea how "long" is long "enough". Since I was brought back with minimal damage to the ol' nogging I couldn't have been too close to "enough".

Dying doesn't scare me. It doesn't hurt. If there's a heaven afterwards that would be great, and if there isn't, then I won't miss it.

Living scares me. There is so much pain, anguish and cruelty in the world. So many people suffering in misery. One of these days yours truly is going to have episode #6 and the world will no longer be my problem. In the meantime I've reached an acceptance about life and death. There is not a darn thing I can do about my dying. Nothing. Out of my control. However, there is a huge amount of things I can do about my living.

In my life there have been many people who reached out and made a difference. Those people did not change the world, but they changed mine. As was posted earlier, even a simple smile can change make a difference. So while I'm still around I intend to do what I can to make my little corner of the world the best it can be.

Don't want a mausoleum, or a funeral, or any of that stuff. (Leaves more flowers and marble for you guys ) The only place I want to be remembered is not in some building, or piece of art. I want to be remembered in the most eternal place there is, in the hearts and souls of those I touched.

Yesterday it rained, and some little frogs that live under my A/C came out to frollic. I took a little time to enjoy their company, and that of the warm rain. I met with some friends in the evening, and had a cuople very nice phone conversations. My world was beautiful and perfect yesterday, and today is looking great so far. That's all I have. No clue if I'll have a tomorrow. If I do that's great. If I don't, that's fine too cuz I've had the best life I could ever have dreamed of. One day at a time, sometimes with friends, sometimes with silly little frogs in the rain.

I have a running joke with some of my friends in a support group I attend for terminal folks like me: First person to discover an afterlife has to come back and give the rest of us the winning lottery numbers

Mike
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Old 07-03-2006, 01:44 PM
  # 60 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by clancy
Also Best, if it is okay to ask, and im sure folk mustask you this all the time,so sorry if im being tedious, but Jesus/God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniecient and benign right? so why does he let people die in such ghastly circumstances? why do the worst diasters hit the poorest areas? A christian girl died in my town after a ghastly attack, in which her friend heard her cry out to God...why wasnt he there? Was the attackers free will more important than her right to life? how can he be good, all powerful and all knowing and let this happen?
Sorry if these questions seem impertinent and confrontational!

I figured you must have asked them yourself once and gotten a answer that satisfied you otherwise you woouldnt have become a Christian?

Thanks for bearing with me, sorry if the question seems rude.I hope not, id really like to know...xx clanc
Well, Clancy,
There have been many answers given to these questions over the ages.
And the same questions are posited to G*D that is not Jesus the christ.
I found a comforting and meaningful answer in the book, Why Bad Things Happen to Good People, by Harold Kushner. But, that gives a spiritual/religious angle to the question. Just not a Christian one.
You seem to be against the Christian explaination. Just recognize that there are others, too.

L'Chaim!
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