AVRT and Relapse Struggle
 

Hi. I am looking for some AVRT tips.

I got sober using AVRT back in 2012 and was sober for almost 2 years. It really was effortless.

I don’t need to go into the details surrounding the day I decided to drink, but in May of 2014 nearly two years sober without issue, I drank.

Ever since then, I haven’t really gone 3 weeks sober. Maybe I got to two months once - I think. AVRT and the BIG PLAN always gets me sober. Unfortunately, it doesn’t keep me there.

I pick up the book, I read, I commit - I fail.

Right around week 2 or 3 - something comes over me. I know it is happening and there is something in me that just “knows” I am going to drink.

My most recent stretch was 3 weeks to the day when I drank.

That 3 weeks was awesome - the first 2 - 4 days maybe a little challenging, but after that the only time I thought about drinking was to be amazed I wasn’t thinking about drinking.

At least until the days before that wedding. A day or two before I knew the thoughts were overwhelming. I told myself I needed to get a hold of my thinking since I had a wedding coming up that will have an open bar.

It wouldn’t have to be a wedding though - the feeling above happens each time I break my Big Plan.

Needless to say, at that wedding on Feb 9th, I snuck a glass of wine when those who know I am “supposed” to be sober weren’t around.

On that day due to circumstances, that one glass is all I had. The next day, back to my usual sneaking 2 bottles of chardonnay every day.

I tried to make a Big Plan this morning, but here I am at Carrabba’s at lunch no less. Before I left the office I made a plan to make a Big Plan tomorrow.

I am planning to do it, but was hoping someone might have some tips to offer that can get me past those overwhelming times when something happens and I get those feelings that I just know I am going to drink.

I try the name it tip and call it vertigo. I identify my beast, but nothing works.

Help?

Why do you decide to drink when you are thinking about drinking ?

Because I want to drink.

So what’s the problem? I’m not trying to be flippant.

If you want to drink and then you do, why do you want to quit ?

Good question. I was hoping for more AVRT insight, but I understand your logic. Thank you for responding.

I’ll continue my journey alone. As AVRT says - no groups, just do it. It was just an issue for me so was hoping for support which is silly because AVRT says ‘no support’ just use your rational mind.

I am struggling and this forum once helped me. I will continue searching.

Thank you again for responding.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean about an issue, not being ‘allowed’ support?

You said you can recognize , identify your Beast , which is huge , although it is only half of AVRT.

Using the technique allows us to identify and separate from It, yeah?

“How did I miss this post for so long? FS57, this was incredible. I was glued to every word. I can't pick a favorite part, but these 3 sentences will stay with me a long time (emphasis added):
"No head space or attitude or event or anything will make me drink because, the thought that it might make me drink is not me, not true, not real and I don't have to listen to it, I will never listen to it, it is my addictive voice. My resistance to my AV is iron clad, it is bullet proof. This is AVRT and Rational Recovery in a nutshell."
I may have to borrow these words in the future.”

That was your thinking in 2012 , it could be tonight too, yeah?
Rootin for ya

I'm sorry you've been struggling but I'm glad you made it back Tammy

D

How did it feel before the wine? How about after that glass of wine? Did it feel as good as you dreamed it would? How about the next day?

"Because I wanted to drink." WHY did you want to drink? What do you get out of it?

To me AVRT wasn't enough. I went through a cognitive based program where we analyzed the pros and cons of drinking (and the pros and cons of not drinking) and made it very explicit. We also went through and looked very carefully how cravings and relapses happen. Your description about how you know you're going to drink happens long before you actually do is how most people relapse. It's not always "Hey! Wine! Let's drink it!"

Here it is in a nutshell.

https://www.soberlink.com/three-stag...on-techniques/

Over my IOP these things became internalized. I found that recovery wasn't figuring it out. It was trusting in people, the process, and doing it rather than thinking about it.

I’ll continue my journey alone. As AVRT says - no groups, just do it. It was just an issue for me so was hoping for support which is silly because AVRT says ‘no support’ just use your rational mind.

tammy, if you want support and feel you will benefit from sharing with others, for heavens’ sake do add support!
it is NOT silly to look for it if the lone way has not “worked” for you.
possibly this method is not a good fit for you...and that is fine.
or maybe it is but you need some clarifications. or maybe...i don’t know.
but don’t go journeying alone if you’d rather join with others.

Sounds like alcoholism to me. You didn't want to drink, your alcholism/addiction wanted you to drink, or your Beast (?) wanted you to drink. And it sounds like you had no mental defence at these times and it won out. I got sober with AA not AVRT so I can't help you with that but please do not struggle with this alone. Alcohol is cunning, baffling and powerful. The beauty is you don't have to do it alone. Do whatever it takes to stay sober my lovely. Maybe combine AVRT with another method? Or maybe you need something entirely different now. And there's nothing wrong with that. The main goal still stays the same...staying sober.

Stay close x x x

I am saddened that this was the first response you received Tammy. Not helpful at all. Please don't let this put you off or try to do this alone.

Rational Recovery is different in some ways to other methods, Snitch.

I believe the post you mentioned was trying to illuminate and expose the AV involved, and not to cause distress.

Its also probably worth mentioning at this point - to everyone - that this is the Secular forums and 12 step is off topic here, and the responses to expected to be about how the OP might deal with her problem using secular methods.

thanks :)

D

So I posted this and it has been brought to my attention that this is the way AVRT works so my apologies for getting it wrong, and please either delete if appropriate or disregard my post!!

Thank you for responding. Everyone’s feedback is helpful. The one AVRT nutshell quote that dwtbd posted was a great reminder.

MindfulMan - thank you for that link and your thoughts. I will read through the relapse advice. I just finished a book not too long ago called This Naked Mind which encourages a CBT approach.

Thank you again, everyone... support does feel good.

Thank you, snitch. Thank you so much. Your note is something I’ve been thinking about.

I keep a text file on my iPad where I put sobriety encouragement. The quote above is being added to that file now along with one that dwtbd posted.

Hi Tammy,

I really like your AVRT work from 7 years ago here on SR

Actually, you DO need to go into the details surrounding the moment you drank after almost a two year wait.

You may be practicing a little AVRT here and there, but you certainly have never made your BIG PLAN. You are making I WON’T DRINK UNLESS... PLANS, which aren’t really plans at all, they are just repetitive points right after satiation, in the oh-so-wonderful appetite cycle of satiation, anticipation, and more pleasure.

That “something” is called your Addictive Voice and what “”knows” I am going to drink” is the “UNLESS” part of your sobriety or temporary abstinence (in AVRT the term “sobriety” = “conditional abstinence”).

The AV loves our favorite flavored ethanol to be wine. It’s so classy. We can lift our baby finger up as we sip (or gulp) its succulent sweet sourness. How can something that is so much a part of good society be so wrong for some of us?

Check out the statistics here to get an overall picture of how alcohol is consumed in our “good society”.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.eb55cd6ec4bb

Daredevil said it well near the end of his thread that was shut down last summer. He realized he had to be willing to quit for good, not only to get rid of all the bad things that were happening, but also to permanently get rid of the “positive” reason for drinking.

Remember, the BIG PLAN can only be done ONCE for any particular substance or group of substances.

Also, I have tried to lie to myself many times to see if I can pull one over on myself. But, I cannot. Every time, I know what I just did and realize I wasn’t able to “put the cat in the bag” to hide it from myself. So, when I made my BIG PLAN, I knew ABSOLUTELY, that I would never drink again at that very moment.

So, what was going on in your thinking and feeling just before you drank five years ago in May after your two year wait?

Gerandtwine

You no doubt had a certain degree of success with AVRT Tammy. If you think you did your best with it then perhaps it's time to incorporate other techniques into your method (in addition to AVRT). MindFulMans advice seems particularly good.

Central to my sobriety is a commitment to a way of life that involves a search for meaning and purpose that makes even the thought of a drink antithetical to my being.

I hope you find what you need.

Tammy, glad you're back here. This point that GT noted above has been very helpful to me. I didn't actually have a lot of negative consequences from my drinking (some internal ones, like depression, but not so much "out in the real world" consequences). So it was a really important point for me that I quit also to get rid of the "positive" reasons for drinking. When my beast says "but it would feel good", I can say, yes it sure would, and you want that, you poor little thing, but I don't drink.

I also agree with others about building a positive, meaningful life after drinking. It's not a part of AVRT, not required for AVRT to be successful. But it's still a good thing for me to focus on with all the free time and energy I have after being done with drinking. There are lots of ways to approach that, perhaps worth exploring. Drinking just doesn't fit in to my life any more, and holds nothing for me. (It holds pleasure for my beast, but not for me).

hugs to you.

Tursiops999 - that bit of GT’s post stood out to me too.

I, too have little negative consequence of drinking beyond personal issues - weight gain, ruddy complexion, less energy to do the things that I really want to do, etc.

When GT quoted Daredevil about “permanently getting rid of all the positive reasons for drinking” - that definitely struck a chord.

I would love more information on how to do that! GT’s sig redefines the AVRT acronym and since seeing it I have been realizing I need to better articulate any positive reason I have for drinking. That has been difficult beyond the childish, “I just want to.”

I am more intelligent than that 4 year old level answer. I am working on my response to the positive reasons for drinking. That way I can address them and work to eliminate them. I hope.

Struggling. Still drinking.


——————
I am not good at being vulnerable. I forgot how good it feels to share candidly and hear/read genuine feedback. It’s priceless actually.

While actively addicted I am able to camouflage myself in lies so easily IRL. I like to be the helper, not the helped. But when I need help, I often don’t know how to ask for it.

Thank you, SR community. Thank you.

yes, the articulating of any “positive reason” has been very helpful to me. not so much for stopping me from drinking, but for disentangling my kneejerk gottadrink!response from what my real needs in the moment of that urge are.
cause there is no need to drink.

One of the mosr useful exercises in outpatient rehab was to make four lists:

Pros of drinking
Cons of drinking
Pros of not drinking
Cons of not drinking

Compare the lists. It's very revealing.

We did this too, they called it a Ben Franklin table. If you put some real honest effort into it, it's very helpful in sorting out your thoughts.

.
Hi Tammy ~

I've followed your Posts and progress here on SR, and will try to offer a few insights...

The critical variable in your Opening Post that jumps off the Page at me is that creeping sensation that '[you] know you're going to drink'. That Self-Sabotage reads like pure AV that has been got under control for long periods. As in, a stretch of several Years.

As with most all others, I used to play all kinda Games with myself. Take just a 'few' glugs of Vodka from one of 3 - 1.75 Liter Handles of Vodka I had stashed in assorted hiding places. Drink early in the Day to be kinda-functional when my Wife got home from Teaching High School. Rotate purchases between multiple Liquor Stores. Taper down to drinking 'only' a Liter of Sake, since it's 'only' 15% Alcohol. The crap we do to ourselves, eh? None of these Games are ever overcome by pure Logic, IMO. As logical a Guy as I am. Logic might enable us to more-clearly see such BS Constructs, but Logic doesn't get us through all such episodes, right?

I know a full-on Kleptomanic. She's stolen her Sisters' valuables for Decades. Even a Friend's Money from their House, when invited to a Party. The planning and stealth and conniving moves of this Oxy Addict are thought through in a weird way. So is planning in advance to drink 'just one' at a Wedding. So were my bizarre Coping Mechanisms. This malarkey is what Addicts descend into doing. No shame in it really; IF Addiction Games are understood, and accepted for the bizarre Behaviors they are.

Acceptance creates understanding.

When I finally got a lucid period of getting a grip on such idiocy is when I could put together a forceful Plan to fully purge such Self-Sabotaging out of my Life. Otherwise, it was gonna continue until my premature Death. 'Boy, I'll show me! I'll play my clever Drinking Games until it kills me'!

I was then relentless about avoiding Boozy Socializing. For a while; however long it took. For me. I also knocked off the weird Construct of playing Games with myself to enable Daytime Drinking. It had long become 24/7 Intoxication. For Years [12]. Early Retirement at 48 made such Drinking even easier. No Job to lose. I had several minor Car Wrecks, but these were solo incidents. No other Drivers. No Witnesses. This gave me time to fabricate BS scenarios as to what had happened in these wrecks.

Being a fairly bright Guy, I found I enjoyed thinking I was SO clever, I could pull off such 'aren't I clever' Games. This realization was a huge part of ending the Self-Sabotage. Like Binge Eating on the QT. How the Brain both justifies and executes such Games is a truly-bizarre aspect of Addiction.

I saw that digging deep and challenging myself was the Core Challenge. THEN, any Program or composite Tool Kit I needed to work diligently after that Epiphany was likely to succeed. So, although I'm a RR/AVRT Guy, this component of deep change from within was critical. AVRT is 'just' the Tool. At the end of the Day, staunch commitment summoned up from way down deep is what got me through decreasing episodes of Self-Sabotage. It was not unlike Training for the Olympics: I had to go >all in<. As is often acknowledged here in SR 'Secular', 'it ain't easy, but it is simple'.

To distill all this verbiage down to a phrase for your Tablet, may I suggest 3 words:

Don't Self-Sabotage

I hope this helps somehow. Your prior 2 Year Sober Stint is amazing. Your Mind is your Friend. Let it lead as you create periods of clear thinking. You've done it before. Stay close to SR, here.

All the best to you! Create the Life you deserve.
.

Notice how the Addictive Voice in some of the posts has changed my mentioning the “positive” reason to “positive” reasons, plural. The AV loves to try to complicate the very simple “positive” reason that people put the volatile drug ethanol into their blood stream. That one singular reason is to experience the effect of that ethanol on the physical body, especially the central nervous system. How could there be any other reason? Get the ethanol. Get the buzz. Get drunk. End of story.

Ethanol is a drug like any other drug. People take it for the specific effect of that specific drug. For me, putting ethanol in my body created a profound and deep pleasure. When I became highly habituated to the cycle of inebriation-hangover-anticipation-inebriation lots of bad things happened which created a huge list of reasons to NOT drink and they finally won out over that one, singular “positive” reason, when I decided to NEVER drink. Deciding to “NOT drink” is temporary and just part of the hangover and trouble shoooting phase of the appetite cycle.

I know some very classy, sober people who are up in their years and have had one or two glasses of wine almost every day of their adult lives. They are definitely drinking for the effect ethanol has on them, but that effect for me would have been a worthless, tantalizing taster-teaser. I say would have been because I cannot remember what it feels like to be under the influence of alcohol in any degree any more.

I think it’s possible to start to loose that limbic memory after two years of not drinking. So it’s rational to think “What was that like?” “I just want to have a few drinks to remember.” “If I can keep my plan to only have two, cool.” “If I decide to keep drinking after two, not cool.””But, let’s see what happens anyway.””You only live once, right?”

What the Big Plan does, is to completely cut off FOREVER any connection between thought and action about taking more of the drug ethanol. I know that IF ethanol were in my body THEN I would feel a deep pleasure. But, for me, that is an utterly impossible eventuality, not because I don’t want the bad things to happen again, but simply because I cannot forget that I decided “I will never drink again.”

I find my ability to manipulate situations (never thought of them as games, but that makes sense) does make me feel intelligent and part of is it fun because there is risk. But, when I am honest with myself, I kind of feel sad manipulating situations and perceptions so often. It creates a very lonely place.

I have arrived at the place where I know that is just what I have to do. I have to dig. I know what I need to do as you put it: "it is simple".

There is a line in the RR book, that I have read and re-read several times. "If a plan for permanent abstinence does not come from one's own intelligence, as a personal decision, then it will not come at all."


I won't. Thank you for taking the time to write all of this. It has benefited me a great deal.

I have been playing mind games with myself all week, well actually ever since I broke my Big Plan a few years ago. But this past week, I decided to take some advice and when I wanted to drink I forced myself to provide one good reason that was even half logical.

I couldn't, but I still wanted to drink. I just kept asking myself, "why?"

I transposed "I" to "it" and all that... still I wanted a drink, but without any logical reasoning.

I realized I had (have) a deep physical craving. Tonight is my first night sober. I haven't made my Big Plan (or reinstated it) formally. I will be alone tomorrow and plan to get up and put my Big Plan back in place.

I know in 4 or so days I won't think much at all about drinking, but I will be aware that my AV never stays quiet for long.

I definitely know this is possible. I am excited about getting sober again for good. At my two week mark or three week mark when my AV attacks feel strong and I get that "feeling," I plan to reach out here if needed.


In the RR book I have the explanation of the "Again" portion of the Big Plan double underlined.

"Again means that the past is a good predictor of the future, and you now have enough experience to make this very import decision to never drink again."

Truth.

Thank you for taking time to respond so thoughtfully.

Hi Tammy,

I've read your posts since you first got sober and was impressed (still am) at how you just took the leap with the Big Plan and ran with it. I'm just ten days in now, and I'd like to say something self-deprecating about that little amount of time, but realize that time doesn't matter at this point because I am now a non-drinker. All disclaimers aside, we're very close in our recent decisions to quit after a long period of drinking, and I want to offer my support.

For what it's worth, I spent years searching for the "why." Wise people here suggested that I forget about the why and just get on with it. I couldn't, I was stuck. Then, after about 5 days sober, after having made the decision to stop forever, I had a hard think about how I would explain alcohol dependence to someone who wasn't an addict. And I hit on, "It's like if you decided you could never have sex again." This flipped the switch for me! I could do that. I wouldn't necessarily be happy about it and I would miss it like hell in the short term, but long periods of abstinence have proven that the memory fades. Not sure if that's helpful, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

I think that the reason "you" can't come up with a why for drinking might be one of two things (or maybe a million, but I can only think of two at the moment). "You" are doing the thinking, but you are not in charge. You are feeling the Beast doing its thing and the anxiety and related physical sensations that generates are overwhelming. And/Or you are having a hard time (as I did) breaking it down to it's simplest form. As GT points out, there is only one reason to drink. I believe now the rest of it is rationalization, and maybe in part a perverse enjoyment of playing the game that MesaMan wrote about. In retrospect, I certainly did that.

Congratulations on making the decision to take action. You've done this before and you can definitely do it again with lasting success.

Tammy and everyone- just wanted to pipe in as an AA person that I try to read threads on other people's programs and this has been a very useful one for me.

One reason I need to hear about this logical (in a nutsell) program AVRT/RR outline is because I do believe I can learn/add things from so many sources to my fundamental (spiritual) program. Another is because the non-AA/NA group I lead for the restaurant world includes keeping a database of resources of every kind possible!

Thanks for starting it and best to you as you keep going on your path.