mirrorball

So I've been trying to get my head around AVRT and permanent abstinence from my DOC cocaine.

Since I made my BP a week ago, my AV has been very active trying to get me to change my mind. Using a variety of tactics - whinging, commanding, pleading, bargaining.

I've found it a real struggle but been saying 'no' and trying not to argue with it. All the while feeling like the addiction has a real hold on me and it's kind of painful to say no never again but I know I have to be strong.

It's been quite difficult and the AV has definitely ramped up its whinging/persuading/pleading.

Last night I was out for dinner with a friend trying to enjoy myself despite the full on Beast attacks when it suddenly occured to me that I could just kind of ignore the AV, not really pay it any attention. Just realise that the Beast is doing what it does, what it'll always do, that's just 'the nature of the beast' and I could kind of not really take it seriously, in a 'talk to the hand' kind of way.

A bit like when my mother comes round and starts telling me what work I need to do to the house or whatever, when I haven't asked her opinion... I just sort of sit there saying yeah yeah yeah without paying much serious attention.

So rather than engage with the Beast and either try and explain why I was saying no, or worse - bargain with it and agree to have a little bit, or only on special occasions or whatever- strategies I've used in the past which have led back to full blown binges - I just kept saying 'no, I don't do that anymore' and it did take the heat out of it after a while.

I realised for the first time that I don't HAVE to do what the AV says and felt like that was something of a breakthrough. Like maybe that connection in my brain where the AV has in the past driven me to take action to indulge is somehow breaking down a little.

Does this sound like I'm beginning to get the hang of it?

andyh

sounds like you're nailing it! keep up the good work

dwtbd

Dismissing the AV out of hand, no negotiating or bargaining, is the really the whole ballgame.

The "R" in AVRT is recognition , scanning your thoughts through the filter of AVRT to identify AV in order to dismiss out of hand is equally important.

Any thought, feeling, or image of future use is AV , so is any doubt in your ability to remain abstinent.

Once born the Beast, the desire , 'programmed itself' via our 'good natured' hardwired survival drive 'system' and went rogue, yeah ? IT's bark the AV , function is to get More, to indulge the desire . The Beast by its nature can't indulge itself, like a parasite in a host , It is dependent on the host for action, the host has complete control and can only indulge the Beast by willful compliance .

Dismissing the AV stops the indulgence in its tracks. Recognizing , separating 'out' AV from the (host) your thoughts , the thoughts of a permanent abstainer, through the filter of AVRT , once a Big Plan is made is the 'learning' curve.

The AV 'speaks' , the Beast barks Its desire, in our own vocabulary, It hijacks and weasels its way into our thoughts and feelings and disguises Itself as our own genuine thoughts to gain access and manipulate us in order to get us to act and provide It with More, like a 'good' survival instinct would, yeah ?

When we are using/drinking there is no separation , we are 'all Beast' , we are acting to get more , 'enjoying' more ,the only conflicts that arise are the negative consequences of use/abuse and those are easily ,or not, rationalized into normalcy and are taken on or endured as the willing price to pay for the deep pleasure of intoxication.

Any doubt in your ability to abstain is AV and dismiss-able. The notion that you may not be 'doing AVRT right' is AV , yeah ?

The AV is/can/will be 'retroactive', in the OP you said " that connection in my brain where the AV has in the past driven me to take action to indulge is somehow breaking down a little" , that is AV because what you are saying is that the AV was operative without your compliance, which isn't true, the AV's job here is to keep that false impression alive in order to use it at a later date to fool you again in the future to 'be driven into action', yeah ?

dwtbd

Sorry I could have added ,Yes, you are doing it 'right'

If you have made your Big Plan , you're golden , anything that says otherwise is AV and dismiss-able and ignorable, Congratulations!

Have you read through the 'long' discussions of AVRT in the threads? , great ways to see nuances and schemes of the AV in play and better hone one's own detection skills

mirrorball

Yes, in the past it has felt like from a neuronal point of view there was a strong connection between thinking of using and then using, now that connection is breaking down so it's not as strong. In terms of my neurons work, not that i'm an expert but I have a little understanding, I need to form new connections so that thoughts of using don't link to action - there's a different neuronal route in there now to short circuit that pattern. I'm aware that, particularly with dopaminergic drugs like cocaine, it's like the brain is tricked into wanting more and more even though it's the last thing I need. As far as I understand it ,dopamine is released in response to natural 'good things' to make us learn to do it again (eg sex, food etc) and cocaine very much hijacks this to tricks the brain into thinking 'hey lets do again the thing that makes all the dopamine release' and so the beast is born. All addictions do this, but cocaine is particularly dopaminergic.

I saw yesterday how sneaky my beast/AV could be. I was lying in bed, and I've deleted all connects numbers but there was one which I'd learned off by heart some time ago. The sneaky beast said 'let's be sure you can't remember that number so you know you're really safe.. what was it again?' and it took a while but eventually I retrieved it from my memory. Which wasn't at all what I wanted to do. Why did I do that? That wasn't an obvious beast attack at the time but I guess in retrospect I should have said 'doesn't matter if I can remember the number or not, not doing it again' and not even gone there.

dwtbd

Regardless access to old contact numbers, the Beast is not getting any more of Its precious stuff , because of the Big Plan.

The AV is toying with the idea that you will agree that you need to separate yourself from access as a way to stay abstinent, that ease of access or proximity creates a situation where the BP is rendered inoperable.

Have you read anything on 'shifting' exercises with AVRT? Ways to purposely tweak the Beast in order to feel it wriggle ? Remembering that number is like that , you could probably feel the Beast's comfort in the fact that you did because slim as it is that number represents an actual path to Its stuff. The great news is that with a Big Plan , it aint gonna happen , knowing the number or not knowing the number isn't really a factor. But the Beast is dumb, so It thinks it is

mirrorball

That's weird because as soon as I remembered the number, I felt a sense of calm which I now recognise was the Beast feeling calm. The rest of me was feeling decidedly uneasy!

Interesting how you say the Beast is toying with the idea that I need to separate from access to stay clean... is that so it can flip that in to saying 'look now we have access so you can't stay clean' (if for example the dealer texts me as he no doubt will at some point).

Wily beast!

With coke there is always the potential to limit access due to it being illegal but as the saying goes, where there's a will there's a way and I've deleted numbers etc in the past when on a break and then either found a source or waited for dealers to contact me again, so it's never been a permanent solution.

Funny I've been having much less craving/beast attacks today. I felt like I had a breakthrough last night where I basically said 'talk to the hand' and the AV realised I wasn't taking it seriously. Today it seems to be much quieter but I'm not going to get complacent I'm sure it will be back soon, a ten year addiction isn't going to go away just like that.

tursiops999

MB, "talk to the hand" is exactly it.

And as dwtbd points out, the recognition piece is important, but you're getting that.

In my experience, beast attacks are unpredictable. Yes, in general it quiets over time after BP, but it can speak up surprisingly from time to time. It can get very loud shortly after the BP. It doesn't mean anything, because .. talk to the hand. It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong or doing it right. It's just something to be recognized and identified as "not-you".

dwtbd

" a ten year addiction isn't going to go away just like that. "

Sure it can , that is what AVRT is all about, with a Big Plan the time it takes to say or think" I will never use cocaine again and I will never change my mind" is the time it takes to end the addiction.

Will there be residual desire for drugs/drinking ? (I'm going to go on experience here and say " uh, Yeah!" ) But AVRT is for that too , it ,AVRT ,RR/TNC are the methods to use to live comfortably with residual desire after ending an addiction.

Having the desire, the Beast, and hearing Its bark, the AV, isn't the 'cause' of addiction , agreeing with the AV and acting on indulging the Beast is.

Separating your own better, more rational thoughts from AV , recognizing that thoughts and positive feelings for future intoxication can't come from your true self, once a Big Plan is made . The resolve you instill in yourself, the resolve we have always possessed but failed to bring to bear, is the resolve that cements the BP and makes it permanent and unconditional.
That resolve can't/ doesn't admit for future use, how or why could it ? WE are done with the addiction , we are never going to allow the addicition to 'come back' or 'restart', yeah ?

Any thought or feeling of future use has to come from 'somewhere' other than our truer, more rational selves, it comes from the IT.

And the IT is a quadriplegic parasite that is forever cut off from Its supply , too bad for It.

GerandTwine

Since it takes the same amount of time (less than five seconds) try saying “never, I will never use cocaine again.” It’s perfectly ok to repeat your Big Plan to yourself.

What are the similarities and differences in your feelings and thoughts between the last week or so with a Big Plan, and the first few weeks of your 9 month plan while pregnant?

mirrorball

OK, I will try.. but what's the difference between saying that and saying 'I don't do that anymore'. Is there something about the word Never?

Interestingly once I found out I was pregnant, on both occasions, drugs were completely off limits and I barely thought about them. I felt relieved that my pregnancy had 'saved/cured' me from drugs -in my first pregnancy I thought that would be it, and indeed I did not have any nor feel the need to until about 8 months after the baby was born and even then it was occasional - every few months or so.

With my second pregnancy I knew I'd probably go back to it but again during the pregnancy wasn't even tempted. I had a health condition that was taking up all my time and energy and could have affected the baby so I certainly wasn't going to even think about endangering the baby any more. I do remember feeling a sense of relief that I had a guaranteed 9 months clean.

I guess the big difference is that I knew that it was only a temporary thing and once the baby was out, drugs would be an option again. I was still using only occasionally and didn't have a local dealer so the drugs were not taking over my life, like they did later on. It was very easy to say 'I can handle this' and to a certain extent that was true as I was getting wasted maybe every 2-3 months, no more.

Its only in later years, and since I got local connections, that I reached the tipping point where it really was affecting my life to the point I needed to stop. So I didn't have that dilemma earlier in my coke-taking career around the time of my pregnancies and shortly after.

MindfulMan

Yeah....the illegality of coke isn't really all that much of a deterrent or a barrier to getting it. The act of scoring is part of use, part of the high.

I found the less effort spent on dealing with cravings/the AV/whatever you want to call it, the easier it was to ignore. We were taught naming and acknowledgement skills in IOP (cognitive based, not 12 Step). It's like "Oh, look, a craving. What's it look like?" You give the cravings no power that way. I find they pretty much blow away in the wind using this approach. If you really look at it and TRY REALLY HARD to NOT give in...well, you're giving the whole idea life and in my case am far MORE likely to drink/snort/whatever.

Two other tricks I use are to say "Oh yeah, I don't do that anymore," and playing the tape about where it leads, the latter VERY useful in my first 90 days, less necessary after that. The former comes into play when drinking is just old habit. Sometimes I'm not really craving, but if there is a drink on the table in front of me out of habit I could sip it before I even consciously realized what I was doing. "Oh yeah, I don't do that."

I hate the whole "BEAST" concept sometimes. I refuse to give the AV that much power or strength. It's more like a wimpy little weasel. Under not very strict scrutiny, it shrivels up and dies.

My abstinence was pretty easy. At least in concept (in practice it took a ton of time and effort). Drinking and cocaine lead me to some bad ****. This outcome is virtually certain once I take that first drink/line, it's only a matter of time, so in that sense, I'm powerless over drugs and alcohol ONCE I START. Until then, I'm far more powerful. My mental, physical and spiritual well being is far better without intoxicants, EVEN IN SMALL AMOUNTS. That one drink or line is only going to have a negative influence on my life.

So why would I do that?

Bye bye, little craving.

mirrorball

Thanks for all the replies.. I have noticed a 'sea change' in the Beast/AV the past couple of days. I just keep saying 'no, don't do that anymore' when it comes by with its beastly cravings. I'm also beginning to see with fresh, un-AV eyes just how stupid and pointless and costly a drug like cocaine is. It will be great not to have that whispering voice in my ear all the time, the one that says 'go on, score, just a little bit, do it when (husband) is not around and he'll never know'. (he always did know as I'd do much and tell him)

I realise the voice may still whisper away but I see now that I don't have to act on it. In the past, I always gave in after a while mainly just to shut the Beast up which I realise was just reinforcing it and making it learn that I would always give in. No more.

GerandTwine

That’s what I was going to ask you?

There’s absolutely no reason you are incapable of giving your Big Plan the same moral right and wrong urgency that you clearly gave your pregnancies.
“saved/cured me from drugs”? ...nor feel the need to until...” a year and a half later? What’s all that REALLY about?
This is what AVRT does. YOU don’t even THINK about endangering the baby while at the same time you RECOGNIZE that desire to go back to it. When that desire comes to your consciousness, you simply Recognize IT, detach, call it your AV, and stand firm that it is not even YOU who is THINKING about snorting cocaine again sometime down the road.
This “relief” is interesting. It is a deal struck between you and your BEAST. IT is willing to wait, because IT knows that you are the gatekeeper and it doesn’t want you to do what you did the first time and make IT wait twice as long as ‘necessary’. Do you see that YOUR relief by having made a Big Plan is different from that relief? That relief was based on later. YOUR relief today is based on NEVER.
Yes, there, you see it, too.
OHHhhhh. So, it’s the local dealer that screwed up your moderate cocaine use. I see.
Ahhh, yes. The dilemma of the local dealer. It reminds me of Sohard, who has a liquor store right across the street from her home (although I think she’s moved to be near a new job). You can imagine that the BEAST has a very acute sense of territory. Territory is a feature of ancient proportions to all life. A place worth fighting for to be safe with food and shelter. Life or death. Your BEAST is the one who is SO dependent upon ITs territory. But YOU?

With a Big Plan you could be alone in the same room with a giant mirrorball on top of which has been carefully tapped out three nice big lines of cocaine and you could go up close and look at it, Recognize your BEAST simply SCREAMING at you “DO IT” and then shift back to YOU and blow it off and walk away.

In fact, the idea that the BEAST has power over territory (ease of access) is false. IT is a paraplegic blob the size of your midbrain that you drag behind you in a little wooden wagon. In the past YOU have always chosen to turn around and shoot it up because you would hear it bawl out “WAhhh, WAhhhh, WAhhhh!”

IT knew to fall silent during your pregnancies. IT knows to work on a new strategy, now that your here.

Have you made a Big Plan? “I will never use again.” What do you feel/hear right after you say to yourself, “I will never use cocaine again.” ?

GerandTwine

In my previous post I should have said the BEAST is a quadriplegic not a paraplegic.

The above is from yesterday, and the below is from today
Your AV has allowed you to put it in the present tense today at the expense of taking the “I” (YOU) out of the equation. It turns into more of a hand spat.


Your only mention of “never” from you in this thread is
in which YOU are claiming the “pain” and not separating from it. And in which you connect the “never” with a need for ongoing strength when in fact, using ‘will’ and using ‘strength’ are two very different ways of changing one’s future.
The Big Plan does create a “sea change” (see change?.). Yes, AVRT is a ‘see change’.

Moving the laser focus of AVRT away from “never” is an Addictive Voice move.

The BEAST will try all kinds of new strategies. But a true Big Plan is ironclad against anything IT can throw at you - including ITs waiting in silence.

mirrorball

Not sure I understand the difference semantically between saying 'I don't do that anymore' and 'I will never do that again' - both mean no more usage either now or in the future but I guess I can say 'I will never do that again' as if I'm not doing it anymore, then I'm never doing it again!

So I have made a Big Plan, but I felt a lot of Beast Doubt (or, the Beast felt the doubt) when I made it. Still, at the moment I've accepted that the only way to end the addiction is to never use again - a concept I've struggled with in the past as I wanted to have my cake and eat it - use occasionally. The last time I 'gave up' was back in September after some horrific binges and I got through to New Years Eve without too many cravings, then I did the old 'I'll just indulge on NYE' thing and went straight back into the addiction after, like I'd never been away. So I learned the hard way with that one. But that's a good thing as I now know the occasional use thing is just BS and the Beast trying to cling on to any possibilty of being fed.

A brief summary of my cocaine career just so you understand where I'm at.

1997-2008 Used very occasionally, wasn't bothered by coke nor did I seek it out. I was more into Es at this point which whilst habit forming were never addictive in the same way.
2008 - 2009 Moved to a new town with a big coke/partying culture. Got into coke quite heavily.. maybe weekly use towards the end. Never daily - I've always been more of a binger.
2009- 2010. Moved back home - did a 'geographic'. Cross-addicted into mephedrone (bath salts) which were legal in the UK at that time.
2010 - unexpectedly fell pregnant, gave up all drugs and thought that was the end of them.
2011-2014 - very occasional use, no local dealer. Every 2-3 months when back in old town and could pick up. This was ok with me and my partner, didn't take over my life.
2014-2016 - still occasional but ramping up. Using with friends in the old town a lot - going on drug weekends there. Got a local dealer -went through several phases of intense use, giving up, going back to it.
2016-present. More and more use, feeling more out of control. Feeling like the addiction 'owned me' .Going through phases of bingeing every 2 weeks or so, regretting it immensely afterwards. Giving up in fits and spurts never for more than a couple of months.
June 2018 - Decided to quit for good.

Had a few more attempts /attacks by the AV yesterday, it's changed tack now and seems to be trying to bargain with me, as it knows I have the upper hand. Sort of saying 'how about if you only do it when you go down south' that type of thing. I'm just saying no - and although this may sound weird, I've made up a little ditty in my head about the beast kind of ridiculing it, and sing that in my head to drown it out and distract myself.. sounds crazy but I think it's working just to distract me and kind of bat the AV away.

dwtbd

Never is the sledgehammer that always shakes the Beast out of its silent roost.

“I don’t do that anymore” has a silent implication of an “unless” on/in the periphery.

When you say or think “Never!” , you can feel/hear at least a small little “yeah right..cmon?..seriously?!” No?

Have you checked out some other threads in the Permanent Abstinence Based recovery thread , in the sub forum right below this one?

The “Original Denial” one may be apropos, worth considering along side your ‘history’ post.

Again congrats! on your BP, you definitely got this!

GerandTwine

You’ve done it mirrorball. You’ve ended your addiction without ever giving up your personal responsibility for using and for quitting; without ever giving up your knowing you could do it by yourself.

As to your not looking forward to a boring month, I believe there is no such thing as “boredom” for people outside of solitary prison confinement. It’s your Beast that is now in solitary prison confinement.

YOU, on the other hand, are now positioned for all kinds of experiences with the huge variety of profound and subtle human thoughts and feelings that go with it. I’ve found life MUCH more nuanced and interesting as a teetotaler than it was getting that same old whammy of chemically enhanced whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

Your Beast will be continuing to make you feel doubt about staying quit. Your Big Plan (with whatever jewelry and rituals you might enjoy to honor it) is the guarantee of your permanent abstinence.

mirrorball

Thanks.. I actually felt really good this morning, as good as any cocaine high or better, as I have started jogging and went for a jog in the sunshine. I always have loads of energy in the morning. Maybe i'm beginning to feel a bit of the ACE?

Also I appreciated being able to be there for my kids and go places with them today. They won't stay little for ever so this time is important. Most of all I don't want them to grow up and I feel like I f'd up being a parent and it's too late. I used to dread them waking up when I was 'on one', and hate being high or coming down around them. Now I love it when they wake up so we can hang out!

I have to admit I still do get the echo when I say 'never' but in the RR book that is normal?

Its funny, yesterday I ended up being delayed on my journey home and got very hungry. I decided to go and get a takeaway and as I was quite hungry I began to feel a strong drive to find some food, and an increasing sense of urgency , cursing every red light on the way there. I thought how similar this feeling was to when I had an intense craving.. definitely a perverted survival drive originating from deep in my midbrain.

Beast hasn't gone away completely, nor am I expecting it to, but I'm definitely feeling like I've seen some progress and I have to say thank you to all the posters on this thread.

mirrorball

Update : Beast/AV is being quieter, some suggestive thoughts of 'hey what about when you're at a festival' 'hey what about if you go down south to (old town)' type of thing.

I think it knows just telling me to 'score now' isn't going to work so it's gone for a different approach. I'm also hearing 'well you're finding this giving up lark easier than you thought so maybe you weren't addicted after all' but I'm not stupid enough to fall for that one.

I think I've got the hang of this a little, as I keep saying to the AV 'the answers no, it's always no, whatever the question is it's always no so don't bother asking' and then thinking of something else, or singing my little ditty .... rather than engaging in the debate which I can see now is how it gets its foot in the door. Because then you're thinking about why not to do it which is not very far away from thinking about doing it.

Been feeling surprisingly ok this week, still feel (my beast feels) a bit of a sense of loss at no more party me, but I made this decision to quit this stuff for the benefits of the straight life and I'm sticking with that. I think I'll be just fine. I want to get out there and do loads of stuff - films, shows, walks whatever, with a straight head. Do stuff rather than take stuff. That's where it's at.

I am interested in doing the shifting exercises in the book but feel scared of rousing the beast too much, I know this is probably irrational but just feels like if I tease/taunt him eg with a line of sugar looking like cocaine or something, he may break out of his cage and get the upper hand..... Do you think it's ok to do the shifting exercises now or wait til I get some more recovery time?

Also beginning to think of my addiction as being in my past rather in my present. Part of me doesn't want to get complacent as my recovery still feels tenacious- I know you'll say this is the Beast but until I get a bit more time behind me I feel like I can't feel like 'hey that's it I'm cured' ... but I'm getting there.